Cite Please: CAP got Maroon Should Marks as punishment?

[DakRadz]

...shorning isn't a bot...

But how do you know?

I'm not at liberty to discuss that.

Oh....I wish you knew how ironic that statement was...

Witness Protection Program?
I hope you're an honest whistle-blower, and not a crook turning on another crook.

Wow. MIKE is feeling really generous today....

[Major Lord]

Has CAP in fact, redeemed itself, or have we just established an efficient mechanism for disposing of past trouble makers and replacing them? ( with fresh trouble makers)

Major Lord
Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur

[lordmonar]

Restating the myth, arguing with the myth, or starting your post with "I heard..." isn't going to answer the question and just walks old road.

Trying to dig this up from 39-1 won't help, either, since a uniform manual isn't going to explain why a change was made (especially if it was political or punitive).

Either someone has the smoking gun memo, or they don't.  Alternatively, if Maj. Gen. Harwell were to answer, that would probably go a long way as well.

Otherwise we should probably just kill the notion and not use it as a constant discussion point regarding our relationship with the USAF.  Even if it were true, considering it was 20 years ago, CAP has redeemed itself and stepped on its own wee-wee 10x's over since then - we can point to much more recent nonsense then that for any relationship issues we may have.

The problem is that there is no smoking gun memo.

No one wrote out in a white paper or on letter head "I've had it with those CAP pukes....let's take away their hard rank!".

No....all of that stuff goes on in private (this being before E-mail) over the phone or at staff meetings.

The real discussion of why they wanted us to change will never be found.

Just like the back room discussion about the TPU.

We all know that the USAF had problems with it....but I challange anyone to find a memo from Gen X to Gen Y about "what are we going to do about that stupid CAP uniform."  But we all know that there was talk about it.  General Courter even said so at the last National Conference.

Was it "punishment"?  No.....I don't really think so.  Was it a solution to a problem from the USAF's point of view....you bet.

The USAF had a lot of problems with CAP back in those days....and (from what I understand) they were looking for solutions....When the National CC self promoted....the USAF had enough and acted.

Another myth I would like to ask about is where does it say that the USAF has control over our general ranks?

Either the USAF has control over all our ranks or they have control over none of them....I have looked at the AFIs and AFPDs and I can't find anything where is specifically says that CAP must get approval from CAP-USAF to change our rank structure.

[jayleswo]

Another myth I would like to ask about is where does it say that the USAF has control over our general ranks?

Either the USAF has control over all our ranks or they have control over none of them....I have looked at the AFIs and AFPDs and I can't find anything where is specifically says that CAP must get approval from CAP-USAF to change our rank structure.

AFI 10-2701 29 July 2005
1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval
of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces.
CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated
according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the
CAP grade structure.

CAPR 35-5
The language in this regulation changed between 2004 and 2010. In the 21 August 2004 regulation, the concurrence of the Chief of Staff, USAF, was required for promotion to Brig Gen and Maj Gen. That phrase is omitted from the current regulation dated 10 March 2010.

[added reference to CAPR 35-5 to original post]

[PHall]

Another myth I would like to ask about is where does it say that the USAF has control over our general ranks?

Either the USAF has control over all our ranks or they have control over none of them....I have looked at the AFIs and AFPDs and I can't find anything where is specifically says that CAP must get approval from CAP-USAF to change our rank structure.

AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3.1  (Dang it, jayleswo beat me to it!)

[Larry Mangum]

Another myth I would like to ask about is where does it say that the USAF has control over our general ranks?

Either the USAF has control over all our ranks or they have control over none of them....I have looked at the AFIs and AFPDs and I can't find anything where is specifically says that CAP must get approval from CAP-USAF to change our rank structure.

AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3.1  (Dang it, jayleswo beat me to it!)

Hmm, I don't think so:

CAP-USAFI 10-2701 3 AUGUST 2007

1.3. The SD is responsible for the following:
1.3.1. Organizing, administering, and managing the State Liaison Office. The SD will:


But then does this CAP-USAFI 10-2701 dated 3 August 2007 replace the USAFI 10-2701 dated 29 July 2005?

[MSG Mac]

i. Changes to CAP Grade Structure. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure. Requests for changes to the CAP General Officer Grade Structure must be approved by the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Requests for changes to the CAP Grade Structure for Colonels and below will be approved by the CAP-USAF/CC.

[jayleswo]

Col Magnum, you quoted CAP-USAFI 10-2701 which has a date of 3 AUG 2007. The regulation I quoted is an Air Force Instruction (AFI) dated 29 July 2005. The are different regulations. Hope that clears things up.  -- John

[PHall]

But then does this CAP-USAFI 10-2701 dated 3 August 2007 replace the USAFI 10-2701 dated 29 July 2005?

No it doesn't. The AFI is issued by HQ AF. The CAP-USAFI 10-2701 is a implements AFI 10-2701 in CAP-USAF and is issued by HQ CAP-USAF.

[Major Carrales]

Lord, You betray your own biases...assuming just because I am a public school teacher that I must hold some prescribed political or religious beliefs.  That is ridiculous...

PHall, I don't have to prove anything...I just want to know and have a true version of the events that can be pointed to factually.  I grow tired of people pointing to things as if they were the facts and having theory, drawn conclusions and agdenda colored as if they were in the "smoked filled room."

Laying to rest lies, distortions of the truth and myths is something you should all hope for.

Really...why do some of you guard this story with such vigor.

And nice try having the thread locked with "blarney." 

[lordmonar]

Well as I stated before....that will never happen.

The real story happened all behind closed doors...not that it was secret but because it is just standard buisness practice to no air dirty laundry in public.

When CAP changed the rules about golf carts and cadets driving the same...

The offical word was "we decided to make a change...therefore....." in real life we all know it was really "FLWG screwed up at their last encampment, with cadets un-supervised playing around on a four wheeler in the middle of the night".

Same story here.

USAF had problems with CAP, there was in incident that broke the camels back and we all ended up with maroon boards.

The situation changed over times and so did the boards.

On a different note....thanks for pointing out in the AFI about USAF controlling our ranks.  I find it intresting though that even with the maroon boards we got the second star anyways...which give credence to what Gen Andersen said about there being other underlying issues with CAP and the USAF about our ranks.

If it were just the 2-star issue then they would have pulled that as well as made us wear the maroon boards.

[BillB]

Florida Wing came out with a letter that cadets could not drive golf carts.  But they also published Florida Wing Operating Instruction 09-2, 10 Dec 2009 where Par 1-8 says: "At no time may a cadet operate or ride in a POV unless the vehicle has been approved for use in accordance with CAPR 77-1 and the ENC/CC or designee.

The fact that 52-16 says cadets can not operate POV, is ignored

[Major Lord]

Lord, You betray your own biases...assuming just because I am a public school teacher that I must hold some prescribed political or religious beliefs.  That is ridiculous...

PHall, I don't have to prove anything...I just want to know and have a true version of the events that can be pointed to factually.  I grow tired of people pointing to things as if they were the facts and having theory, drawn conclusions and agdenda colored as if they were in the "smoked filled room."

Laying to rest lies, distortions of the truth and myths is something you should all hope for.

Really...why do some of you guard this story with such vigor.

And nice try having the thread locked with "blarney."

Joe,

No, I am just familiar with your posts.(I noticed that you did not actually deny that you believe Carbon Dioxide is a greenhouse gas though....) Of course I am biased, everyone is, I make no attempt to hide my biases (quote the contrary, actually) Your political views are as well known as your taste in hats and music. I just find your "mythbusting" efforts comically ineffective. Trying to foist the "If the glove don't fit you must acquit" argument and insisting that evidence be provided to you right here and now and that if that cannot be done, those holding opposing views should just shut up is a proposal so full of logical holes its hardly worth responding to. Nonetheless, people did, and the preponderance of evidence is that the "myth" is substantiated, not busted, although I will grant you not definitively so. As to my bias against public school teachers ( and I am married to one) I freely admit  they are for the most part a bunch of commie-lovin' anti American pinko hippies, dedicate to the destruction of the American way of life and holding freedom in open contempt, loathing, and disdain......although I am willing to grant an exception on a case-by case basis! Prove otherwise or never speak of it again, I challenge you!

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

Major Lord,

I don't know how much your ticket to the "crazy train" cost you, but I suspect it has taxed your judgement.

Carbon Dioxide is a GREENHOUSE gas, its effects can be clearly seen on the planet Venus.  As for its effects and levels on the planet EARTH, I find it hard to believe that Carbon Dioxide...a natural exhalant of Animal Life and the result of naturally occuring forest fires going back to the beginning of time...would so suddenly, in the course of 150 years, suddenly doom the planet.

I think the current concept of GLOBAL WARMING smacks more of an attempt to promote SOCIAL ENGINEERING than of anything more than a theory.

Does Carbon Dioxide effect the temperature of the planet...the answer is YES.  However, I believe that we have come a long way in the US and industrialzed world to mitigate that.  New advancements in internal cumbustion, true envrionmentalism (not environmenal wacko-ism) and conseravtionism and the advancement of other technologies have greatly slowed any problem.

Furthermore, if Climate change is occuring...I believe it is the result of a delayed reaction from the Steam Era.  And I think that people like the Victorian British, who burned off forests of trees and created caverns of Coal out of coal mines from buring it to a point that Victorian Era poets even document the days with no sun have more to do with it than modern Detroit, Washington and CONSUS.

Do we sacrifice our economy, culture and political structures based on climate change?  NO.  We simply become the good stewards of the Environment people like Presidet Theodore Roosevelt advocated.   Radically chaning the society of the United States of America because of DOOM SAYERS?   NEVER.

I am a firm believe in the Constitution of the United States and its concepts of limited government, checks and balances and republicanism.  I am not, however, a blind follower of REPUBLICAN and DEMOCRATIC agendas.   I will not, like some, stand so close to the lantern of my political beliefs that I am blinded to any good by the other side.


What next...you gonna call me a RACIST?  TERRORIST?  LOYALIST? TRAITOR?  You already got COMMUNIST and ANTI-AMERICAN in there...why not go for the gold.

Now...

As for mythbusting, show me some evidence that the contentions mentioned in the above thread are TURE or FALSE beyond a reasonable doubt using some item of evidence....Prove one way or another or never speak of it again, I challenge you!

[High Speed Low Drag]

I volunteer to be someone's second.

Pistols at 10 paces, gentlemen?

Edit:  (Just can't do it in Arkansas, aginst the law to be a second in a duel in this state)

[Major Carrales]

I volunteer to be someone's second.

Pistols at 10 paces, gentelmen?

Swords at 50 paces!!!  Really I don't know why Major Lord is taking this position.  In anycase, I've said all the POLITICAL DRIVEL I intend to.  I generally try to avoid HIGH POLITICS on CAPTALK...but he asked my opinions after some "slings and arrows."  I will say no more about that.

Why people keep supporting these myths is beyond me.

[Major Lord]

Joe, Joe, Joe

Your disproportionate emotional response is just so typical of...... Mariachis....Just kidding! Like I said, I know you are not a communist. I have read every post you have written. I asserted that Public School Teachers are a bunch of commies, a widely perpetuated belief, and you failed to provide evidence that it was a myth. By your earlier logic, it must be the case. Your Ad Hominem attacks are typical of those losing polite disagreements badly, and I take no offense, even though you deemed to play the race card, the true last refuge of scoundrels. I will await your on-balance apology. As an aside, its pretty hard to be a "Racist" since there is only one race of Man, HomoSapiens...I suppose there may be some hold-outs out there who really have it in for Australopithecus, or Cro magnum, but the very word "racism" is one that signals a vast ignorance of taxonomy, humanity and genetics.

Terrorist? I am not sure, do you play the Accordian?

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

Joe, Joe, Joe

Your disproportionate emotional response is just so typical of...... Mariachis....Just kidding! Like I said, I know you are not a communist. I have read every post you have written. I asserted that Public School Teachers are a bunch of commies, a widely perpetuated belief, and you failed to provide evidence that it was a myth. By your earlier logic, it must be the case. Your Ad Hominem attacks are typical of those losing polite disagreements badly, and I take no offense, even though you deemed to play the race card, the true last refuge of scoundrels. I will await your on-balance apology. As an aside, its pretty hard to be a "Racist" since there is only one race of Man, HomoSapiens...I suppose there may be some hold-outs out there who really have it in for Australopithecus, or Cro magnum, but the very word "racism" is one that signals a vast ignorance of taxonomy, humanity and genetics.

Terrorist? I am not sure, do you play the Accordian?

Major Lord

Major Lord,
Your humor did not come through in these posts.  These are the most "CHARGED" times, politically, I have ever studied.  I am pretty sure we are about 5 years from things like a renewed SEDITION act.  I already see all sorts of non-sense talk coming from elements of BOTH sides.

My "attacks" are merely the expected rebutals to what you posted. 

I am well aware of the attempt of many to "derail" this post and creat a LOCK.  Why should I fight it.

The last post to yours, while containing my true beliefs of Global Warming...is nothing more than what I believe to be one of the FINAL STRAWS to a LOCK.  The calls of "RACISM et al, is hyperbole designed to highlight the insipid nature of the discussion we were undertaking.

I, however, found some of your comments a tad bit "distasteful.  The "Crazy Train" stuff, was meant to be funny.  That may not have come through.

[SarDragon]