Shifting "up" Level Completion requirements for promotion

[RiverAux]

Many here have pointed out over the years that Level 5 of the senior member professional development program is just sort of sitting out there with very little incentive for people to want to complete it. 

Others have proposed shifting "up" the PD levels required to meet promotion so that in order to obtain Lt. Col. you would need to complete Level 5.  But, I don't think it has been done in poll form, so here we go.

This is how it would look (not regarding the Time in Grade and other promotion requirements):
Level 1  2nd Lt.  (no change)
Level 2  1st Lt.
Level 3  Capt.
Level 4  Maj
Level 5  Lt. Col. 

No, this wouldn't solve any major problem, but would square away a minor inconsistency wherin you can get promoted without completing a level (1st Lt.) and where you complete a level but don't get promoted (Level 5).  Why not simplify it? 

While I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway because someone will bring it up -- if we went to this system we would grandfather in everybody at their current grade, but make them meet the new requirements before being promoted again. 

I'm not putting this out there because of any belief that CAP is too top-heavy in rank.  For those who care to look into it, we do have a pyramid-shaped distribution of ranks now.  This probably would widen the bases a bit as a lot more people would probably top out at Captain (since you'd have to go to RSC as part of Level 4 to get to Major). 

This would raise the bar to become a CAP field grade officers (other than those unneeded special and mission-related appointments) and I think would encourage more folks to take advantage of the higher level training available at Region and National Staff Colleges.  A small side benefit of the proposal, but not the reason I'm bringing it up. 

   

[Eclipse]

I actually agree with this!

Its always befuddled me why we push into 1st Lt with no PD, which involves our newest and most inexperienced members, but offer nothing in the way of incentive for Level 5, which is the top-end of our PD program.

[FlyTiger77]

In a perfect world, wing and higher commanders would be selected from among those who have already completed Level 5. Thus, level 5 would have 'meaning' as a prerequisite for promotion to colonel.

[arajca]

[sarcasim]Whoa! Time Out! Wait just a minute!

Good God, man. Are you actually suggesting applying LOGIC to the CAP grade structure!? Have you learned NOTHING here? Logic and CAP grades are mutually exclusive. [/sarcasim]

It makes sense, which means it will probably never get approved.

I like it. I also like the addressing of the major complaints against the idea before they pop-up.

[a2capt]

I too agree. When I first researched it I thought it was a bit odd that I could finish up the ranks without an award to go with it - and because of that I have plotted my CAP career path to get the Level 5 pre-requisites completed before reaching Lt. Col.

With three years to go, I just need NSC and the specialty track rating.

[Cecil DP]

[sarcasim]Whoa! Time Out! Wait just a minute!

Good God, man. Are you actually suggesting applying LOGIC to the CAP grade structure!? Have you learned NOTHING here? Logic and CAP grades are mutually exclusive. [/sarcasim]

Why apply logic when Cronyism, Nepotism, and Sycopathy have worked so well for almost 70 years?

[FW]

^What!!!??? You mean a member would actually have to accomplish the whole PD program before becoming a Col.?  Wow! What about all those Cols. who only made it to Level 2? 
Nahh, it would never work...

(But, I love the idea)

GRW #2085

[RVT]

This is how it would look (not regarding the Time in Grade and other promotion requirements):
Level 1  2nd Lt.  (no change)
Level 2  1st Lt.
Level 3  Capt.
Level 4  Maj
Level 5  Lt. Col. 

No, this wouldn't solve any major problem, but would square away a minor inconsistency wherein you can get promoted without completing a level (1st Lt.) and where you complete a level but don't get promoted (Level 5).  Why not simplify it?  While I think it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway because someone will bring it up -- if we went to this system we would grandfather in everybody at their current grade, but make them meet the new requirements before being promoted again.  I'm not putting this out there because of any belief that CAP is too top-heavy in rank.  For those who care to look into it, we do have a pyramid-shaped distribution of ranks now.  This probably would widen the bases a bit as a lot more people would probably top out at Captain (since you'd have to go to RSC as part of Level 4 to get to Major).  This would raise the bar to become a CAP field grade officers (other than those unneeded special and mission-related appointments) and I think would encourage more folks to take advantage of the higher level training available at Region and National Staff Colleges.  A small side benefit of the proposal, but not the reason I'm bringing it up. 

ALL of the reasons you give are good & valid.  I never understood why the system was set up the way it is.  I'm coming in at the bottom of this system, it would slow up every promotion I will ever get, and I still think this is how it should work.  Levels should equal "O" grades.  Level 1 for O-1, level 4 for O-4 etc.  At first I thought that's how it DID work

If a lot of people stop at Captain, thats good too.  Captiain is the main USAF "working rank"   On active duty the USAF promotes someone to Captain faster than the other branches do, even though major still comes at the same 11 year point.  USAF flying squadrons tend to have mostly Captains.  Another plus there.

And wow, a consensus?  Everybody agrees with this?  Print this thread out & frame it - it will never happen again.

[SarDragon]

On active duty the USAF promotes someone to Captain faster than the other branches do, even though major still comes at the same 11 year point.

Really? In less than 4 years? That's the USN promotion point for O-3. IIRC, USMC has a similar requirement.

[AlphaSigOU]

IIRC, this is the current promotion requirements for USAF company grade officers:

1st Lt - 24 months after commissioning as a 2d Lt; fully qualified (so long as you're not a dirtbag or under charges, you get pinned)
Capt - 24 months as a 1st Lt; fully qualified

Promotion to Major takes place about 10 years after a year group commissions. About 90% make it to Maj.

[RVT]

IIRC, this is the current promotion requirements for USAF company grade officers:

1st Lt - 24 months after commissioning as a 2d Lt; fully qualified (so long as you're not a dirtbag or under charges, you get pinned)
Capt - 24 months as a 1st Lt; fully qualified

Promotion to Major takes place about 10 years after a year group commissions. About 90% make it to Maj.

Time moves on.  When I was comissioned in the USAF in 1980 1LT cme in 18 months and Captain was two years later.  Sounds like they finally evened things out.

[davidsinn]

The main argument that I've heard for not doing this before was the fact that ECI13 was hard to get into and complete in a timely manner. That's not an issue anymore. When can we implement this?

[Custer]

The main argument that I've heard for not doing this before was the fact that ECI13 was hard to get into and complete in a timely manner. That's not an issue anymore. When can we implement this?

We can't it makes too much sense.

[davidsinn]

The main argument that I've heard for not doing this before was the fact that ECI13 was hard to get into and complete in a timely manner. That's not an issue anymore. When can we implement this?

We can't it makes too much sense.

Coup? We've already got a pair of "birdies" on the inside.

[RiverAux]

Wow, extremely high poll support and all positive comments.  Now I really wish that this was my original idea. 

[SARDOC]

[quote author=Dwight J. Dutton link=topic=10972.msg200437#msg200437 date=1278967756

And wow, a consensus?  Everybody agrees with this?  Print this thread out & frame it - it will never happen again.
[/quote]

I have to disagree..just to ruin the perfect streak....sorry  (but really it is a good idea)

[AlphaSigOU]

[quote author=Dwight J. Dutton link=topic=10972.msg200437#msg200437 date=1278967756

And wow, a consensus?  Everybody agrees with this?  Print this thread out & frame it - it will never happen again.

I have to disagree..just to ruin the perfect streak....sorry  (but really it is a good idea)
[/quote]

Fifty lashes with a wet noodle! 

[FlyTiger77]

ALL of the reasons you give are good & valid.  I never understood why the system was set up the way it is.  I'm coming in at the bottom of this system, it would slow up every promotion I will ever get, and I still think this is how it should work.  Levels should equal "O" grades.  Level 1 for O-1, level 4 for O-4 etc.  ...

And wow, a consensus?  Everybody agrees with this?  Print this thread out & frame it - it will never happen again.

"[T]his is how it should work."  Really? Why?

"...[A] consensus? Everybody agrees...?"  How do you figure? I had voted "No" at about the same time as my post 121019Jul10, a good 5 hours prior to your post.

[PHall]

I voted no, only because this smacks of a "solution looking for a problem."

What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?

[FW]

^ "What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?"  Are you kidding?  By the time a member is appointed to a senior leadership position in CAP, don't you think he or she should be fully versed in all phases of CAP culture, procedures, policies and regulations?  Don't you think it may be a good idea for all aspiring a senior leadership position in CAP to have, at least, the best CAP credentials to hold such a position? 

Then again, as Cecil DP said; "Why apply logic when Cronyism, Nepotism, and Sycopathy have worked so well for almost 70 years?"

[FlyTiger77]

^ "What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?"  Are you kidding?  By the time a member is appointed to a senior leadership position in CAP, don't you think he or she should be fully versed in all phases of CAP culture, procedures, policies and regulations?  Don't you think it may be a good idea for all aspiring a senior leadership position in CAP to have, at least, the best CAP credentials to hold such a position? 

Then again, as Cecil DP said; "Why apply logic when Cronyism, Nepotism, and Sycopathy have worked so well for almost 70 years?"

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

[SarDragon]

<invokes Meatballs> It just doesn't matter. </ Meatballs>

Repeat as necessary.

[FW]

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

Jack, that is exactly the problem we are discussing on this thread.  The perception is there is no real relationship between the PD program and grade or leadership postion.

This has been discussed on numerous threads over the last couple of years in various forms so, IMHO, the problem exists.  The majority of the posters here think there is a need for improvement.  I agree.  However, I don't think it will happen because of our entrenched system as it is.

[RiverAux]

Does rank (up to Lt Col), in and of itself, denote senior leadership in CAP or does it merely denote professional development achievement?

To some extent yes PD levels do have some linkage to leadership experience either in command or in a staff officer position.  Due to our excessive special appointment/mission related skills promotion opportunities it isn't as clear as it should be, but thats a topic for another thread (and we've had them). 

[Patterson]

^ "What problem is this proposal supposed to fix?"  Are you kidding?  By the time a member is appointed to a senior leadership position in CAP, don't you think he or she should be fully versed in all phases of CAP culture, procedures, policies and regulations?  Don't you think it may be a good idea for all aspiring a senior leadership position in CAP to have, at least, the best CAP credentials to hold such a position? 

hahahhaha......when a person is able to be a member of CAP for 16 Months, and haveing just completed Level 2 gets promoted to the position of Wing Commander all of our PRO Development and Rank and Grade nonsense....is well....nonsense!!

Why Can't the member who has been a Cadet, and a Senior for over 14 years attend activities that only "Major's" can attend.  Why does the National Commander limit National Staff Positions to those that are a Major ONLY?!?!?!?!?!

If the guy off the street who has the CAP political connections become a Wing Commander in three years having only been a First Lieutenant, and only holding a Squadron Staff job.....something is really wrong with the organization.

How about my Squadron Member who runs a multimillion dollar business, who retired as a Captain from the Army after 15 years of enlisted and commissioned service and has demonstrated leadership potential be allowed to enroll in ACSC, or apply for a National Leadership or staff Position.  Instead lets be sure to hold him back, tell him he does not know CAP well enough, even though he just got his Level 3 award, completed RSC, CLC, SLS, UCC and TLC but has to STOP and wait to make Major before allowed to continue.

The whole system is broken, this is not a fix to anything.   

[arajca]

The grade restrictions on SOS, ACSC, and AWC are not imposed by CAP, but are imposed by the AF on CAP personnel just like on AF personnel.

[Patterson]

The grade restrictions on SOS, ACSC, and AWC are not imposed by CAP, but are imposed by the AF on CAP personnel just like on AF personnel.

But as the AF and many here like to remind us.....we are not Air Force.  In fact our Rank means nothing when the guy of the street can be promoted to whatever the National Commander will allow.

What about National Staff College.  Should the Doctor who joins CAP and makes Major faster than a 15 year member get to go, but not the guy with 15 years. 

How about National Staff Positions and serving on those "advisory teams".  I can be the best candidate for an advisory team, but because I did not know the Wing Commander and was not "given" Major, I obviously have no knowledge on what I may be best at.  In what world does that make sense.

Arbitrary "minimum rank" mandates are fine when the rank and grade means something, but in CAP, as has been stated hundreds of times on this board, DOES NOT!!!!!!

If we are going to make Rank actually mean something, lets stop special promotions.  Work your way to Wing Commander, don't be a First Lieutenant and get the job because you know the Region Commander.

I think we all have either heard the stories or seen members come into CAP specifically to be placed in a Leadership Position and get the "rank".  that takes away all fairness and reason to even have the rank structure.

[arajca]

SOS, ACSC, AWC are AF course, not CAP. The AF needs some measure to determine when the appropriate time for a CAP member to take these courses and decided on grade, since it probably made more sense to them (and fit into their forms) than anything else CAP has.

[Patterson]

^ Ok, lets get someone to fix that.  I know no one.....do you?!?!  CAP had to agree to that at one point. 

Lets make registering for AF distance courses a progressive measure that must be signed off on by the Squadron, Group and Wing Commanders then.  Perhaps you must have SLS, CLC and RSC done before be allowed to enroll in AWC, then for ACSC you would need SLS and CLC.  If you don't like that, throw time limits in.  Say for ACSC you need 5 years in CAP before enrolling.  Then for AWC you need 8 years.

Something has to be more fair than arbitrary grade limits.  In fact when enrolling for ACSC or AWC, the Air Force sends the requests to CAP NHQ to verify rank.  Instead of verifying rank, lets get all parties to agree to verify courses completed.     

Wow....sorry to hijack this thread!  I am just sick of hearing of members not being allowed to do something when they are clearly more qualified than others. 

[Ned]

hahahhaha......when a person is able to be a member of CAP for 16 Months, and haveing just completed Level 2 gets promoted to the position of Wing Commander all of our PRO Development and Rank and Grade nonsense....is well....nonsense!!

Hmmm.  "Nonsense" is a little strong, don't you think?  I think we can both agree that it would be extremely rare for a 16-month member to be named a wing commander.  In the hundreds, if not thousands, of wing commanders in our 60+ year history, how many did you find?

And why not give the region and national commanders a little faith and credit and assume that if they ever faced such an unusual dearth of available talent that they were forced to appoint a relatively inexperienced member as wing commander, that they still selected the best available candidate?

Why Can't the member who has been a Cadet, and a Senior for over 14 years attend activities that only "Major's" can attend.  Why does the National Commander limit National Staff Positions to those that are a Major ONLY?!?!?!?!?!

If you actually wanted an answer to the question, perhaps you should consider sending your inquiry through the chain of command for a possible response.  Or ask her yourself if you bump into her at the NB or your wing conference.

I can't speak for her, of course, but if I were ever the National Commander I might set a similar requirement to help me screen applicants.  Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

Obviously not a totally reliable system, but one that I might reasonably choose to employ to help me select a relatively few staff members.

If the guy off the street who has the CAP political connections become a Wing Commander in three years having only been a First Lieutenant, and only holding a Squadron Staff job.....something is really wrong with the organization.

I don't mean to go all Darth Vader on you, but I find you lack of faith disturbing.  Why on earth would a region commander select an inexperienced wing commander unless the region commander - after an extensive application process and careful review - sincerely believed that the relatively inexperienced member was the best possible choice among the available applicants?

I guess I somewhat agree that if the best candidate is the one with relatively little experience, then "something is wrong with the organization," but the problem is much more likely to be the overarching requirments of the wing commander job (applicants tend to be relatively wealthy members - often retired - who can afford the thousands of dollars of unreimbursed expenses and the hundreds of hours away from business and family).  And there are some pretty small wings out there in terms of membership, where there simply aren't as many available applicants as we would like.

How about my Squadron Member who runs a multimillion dollar business, who retired as a Captain from the Army after 15 years of enlisted and commissioned service and has demonstrated leadership potential be allowed to enroll in ACSC, or apply for a National Leadership or staff Position.  Instead lets be sure to hold him back, tell him he does not know CAP well enough, even though he just got his Level 3 award, completed RSC, CLC, SLS, UCC and TLC but has to STOP and wait to make Major before allowed to continue.

Hmmm.  And how long would it take your friend to become qualified for promotion to major?  Answer: several years, during which he could serve with distinction at the squadron, group,  wing, or region level.  Heck, under your scenarios, he could be selected as a group or wing commander.

How does that equate with being "held back"?  Well over 98% of all the command and staff positions in CAP are open to captains and below.

The whole system is broken, this is not a fix to anything.

Again, this seems a little overstated.  If your friend can successfully serve in over 98% of the staff positions in CAP, it is hard to understand why we should describe the system as "broken."  Perhaps I am missing your point.

Finally, let me take the opportunity to remind you of the wisdom that appears under the USAF Core Value of Service Before Self, in discussing Faith in the System.

To lose faith in the system is to adopt the view that you know better than those above you in the chain of command what should or should not be done.  In other words, to lose faith in the system is to place self before service.  Leaders can be very influential in this regard: if a leader resists the temptation to doubt 'the system', then the subordinates might follow suit.

These still seem like wise words for all members.

[MSG Mac]

The Air Force has grade restrictions on the SOS, ACSC, and AWC for a reason. That is to train these officers at a specific time in their careers. Otherwise a 2LT could take ACSC and by the time he reaches a position where the course would have been helpful, his education would be obsolete by a decade or more, and therefore a waste of time, effort, and money. But why worry about Air Force PME when CAP has its own Professional Development Courses which are more appropriate for CAP members and in which the only grade limitations are at the NSC level. Having taken all these courses (some several times over), and the Air Force Courses up to ACSC, the CAP courses are definetly better for our membership.

[Patterson]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

See my reasoning here Col.  Beginning on page 17 of CAR 35-5, it states

Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member professional development requirements after Level I.

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right". 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

CAP, like the AF and other services, is willing to give out carrots for professional services we need and would be very expensive to pay for out of our dues.

Let's take your Dr "whatshisname". He joins CAP, completes Level I and is promoted to Captain. After one year he gets promoted to Major.
Unless the NHQ staff position / advisory board has a medical component, I don't see his application getting past step 2. (Step 1 being he passed the grade check.) In theory he could now take ACSC. I would think his commander would pause before hitting the approve button and suggest to Dr "whatshisname" that if he is interested in PD / PME, perhaps SLS, CLC or SOS might be in order first.

Major generally (not always) shows some dedication and service to CAP.  Between the PD requirements and Wing CC approval you can generally assume they've been there and done that in some part of the program. This coincides with the fact that Major is the first field grade.

Is it perfect? No. Can we change the requirements for CAP officers enrolling in AF PME? No.

I could get behind the shift up idea of this thread.

[PHall]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

See my reasoning here Col.  Beginning on page 17 of CAR 35-5, it states

Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member professional development requirements after Level I.

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

Repeat after me, "Life is not fair." Repeat as many times as needed.

[DogCollar]

Achieving the CAP grade of major tends to show a certain dedication to the corporation and shows some accomplishment in our PD program.  If an otherwise highly qualified applicant cannot be bothered to work in their specialty track or attend an SLS, CLC, or a staff college, that tells me something about them.

I see.  However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains


That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.

I can only speak about Chaplains.  What grade a Chaplain enters  CAP as, depends entirely on the amount of applicable higher education he/she has.  For example, a chaplain with a bachelors degree and 5 years ministerial experience, that is officially endorsed by her/his religious body can enter as a 1st Lt.  If the Chaplain has a Master of Divinity or equal degree, Captain.  If the Chaplain has an earned Doctoral degree that is in a related field, i.e., theology, pastoral care, homiletics, etc...Major.  Most CAP Chaplains come aboard as Captains, as they have earned a Master of Divinity degree or equivalent.  I did.  I've had to complete levels 1 through 3, just like everyone else, and I had to wait the normal 3 years TIG in order to be promoted to Major.  I have since completed Level 4, but will have to wait 4 years TIG in order to be promoted to Lt. Col.

[Ned]

   However a flaw is built in that allows the following individuals to promote to Major after 1 year as a Captain and having been a special appointment to begin with;
Chaplains
Health Service Personnel
Aerospace Education Officer
Legal Officers
Finance Officers

This may be one of those "one person's 'flaw' is another person's 'feature'" kind of things.

Reasonable minds may differ as to the value to CAP of our advanced grade appointments and promotions for professional skills (doctors, lawyers, etc), mission-related skills (CFIs, A&P, etc), and special appointments (former military officers & NCOs, etc.).

But our volunteer leaders on the NB considered the advantages and disadvantages of such policies and decided they were a Good Thing for CAP when they voted for the regulation and subsequent changes over the years.  The odds are that there will be additions, deletetions, and other changes to these policies in the future depending on our experiences.

A couple of things to consider - the Air Force has similar policy of appointing professionals like doctors, lawyers, and chaplains (among other things) at higher grades and using a separate professional development and promotion system.  To be sure, there are some important differences in that CAP seems to offer these kinds of appointments/promotions to a broader range of skills than the AF does.  (Being a CFI, for instance. does not rate advance grade as an AF pilot.)  But our volunteer leaders have decided that the needs of CAP are such that it makes sense to offer advanced grade to CFIs in an effort to recruit more of them.

Also, remember that highly specialized officers like physicians or lawyers may achieve higher grade in CAP, but are comparatively unlikely to serve in command slots.  They are almost always staffers.  (There have been exceptions, of course.  We have had a lawyer or two as National Commander.)

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

Yup.  But remember, that there are very, very few opporunities available only "majors or above."  AFAIK, we are only talking about NSC and the relatively few positions on the volunteer national staff.  I haven't looked at the class profiles for the last several NSCs, but my impression is they are not stuffed with doctors and lawyers taking up space and depriving the "ordinary members" of the slots.

Indeed, my guess is that it is the opposite - since many professionals are exempt from PD, they don't need to spend a week at NSC.  So they don't.

Similarly, we don't have a plethora of field grade doctors and lawyers crowding out the "ordinary members" in positions on the national staff such as Cadet Programs Advisor, Public Affairs Advisor, or Maintenance Advisor. 

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

I hope it goes almost without saying that you are entitled to disagree with any decision or policy even if you cannot fully articulate the reasons for your disagreement.

It is my hope and gentle guidance that you express you disagreement reasonably and respectfully.

[Patterson]

^ Thank you Ned!  I did not want to upset anyone here, especially since I am new.   I will save that for post # 1,000   

It just seemed like every time a position was advertised by National to serve on a "board", "advisory committee", or apply for higher leadership positions, it always said "Major or Higher".  My concern is that perhaps it was just an arbitrary screening mechanism.  I do understand from the explanations here that there does need to be a Service and CAP commitment requirement.  I am just worried that perhaps the best people are not being given the chance to apply because they may only be a "Captain".

[MSG Mac]

The only requirement for them to be promoted to Major is 1 year as a Captain, and completion of Level 1.

So, the "ordinary member" waits upwards of 5 years to make Major, but Dr "whatshisname" gets it in 1??  Then may apply for everything and anything that is open only to Majors or above.

That may seem right to some of you, but it does not seem right to me.  I can not explain the reason for my dislike for this situation, other than "not fair or right".

You left out the part that mandates  a "Doctorate" in the career field whether its as an Educator, Lawyer, or Chaplain, etc. Also requires that the applicable licensing to practice or perform the duties of the specialty are current.

[Patterson]

^ Mac.... tell me what a Doctor can legally do in CAP again??  That's right.....bandages and aspirin.  He can't treat members, can't give medical advice (malpractice may be an issue) etc. etc. etc..

I am addressing CAP's items, not going to say "gee guys, he spent an extra year in school....lets give him Major".  I have advanced degrees past high school as well ......but mine are in Engineering, not medicine so I guess I am not the "ideal member".

I now see that really I should be agreeing with the original poster and support Pro Development levels that equal Grade.  That way my Friend the Doctor, has to complete Levels 1-4 to get past Captain.  Actually that would make everything more fair!!

Wow....that took me 2 days to figure out.  This is Fun! 

[Ned]

One last thought.

The relative "worth" of CAP grade is probably the second-most discussed topic here (after uniforms, of course) and the general consensus amongst the "CT brain trust" appears to be that it only represents a given level of PD.  Restated, many people perceive CAP grade not so much as an emblem of authority, but that it simply recognizes that the member has hung around for a while and surrendered a given number weekends for things like SLS, CLC, etc.

Given that perception, if I were the National Commander, I might want to upgrade the corporate culture and help attach additional importance to field-grade rank.

And one way I might do that is to emphasize the value of that rank by insisting on it for positions of national responsibility.  This might tend to encourage company grade officers to promote and recognize the additional time and effort put in by higher ranking officers.

For me it would be just one way to help change our culture for the better.

But that's just me.

After all, it does seem a little  inconsistent to complain that "CAP grade doesn't mean anything" and then to complain that only high ranking officers get to serve on the national staff.

[Lt Oliv]

I find it very interesting that so many people who get all caught up in this rank business seem to forget that this is not a situation unique to CAP.

A regular guy (or gal!) goes to ROTC, upon graduation is commissioned as a Second Lieutenant or an Ensign.

A Physician is commissioned as a Captain/Lieutenant (O-3).

How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade. That means if Person A and Person B both entered the same college class together, and Person A was commissioned at the age of 22 while Person B went on to medical school, why, Person B will come in at roughly the same pay grade as Person A, even though Person A was there (roughly) 4 years earlier!

This is the reality of the military.

What's that? We're NOT the military? Gotcha, you're a civilian style "First Lieutenant" or "Major" are you? I'll bet your uniform bears no resemblance to that of the USAF. I'll be it doesn't even say "U.S. Air Force" anywhere on your membership card, right?

With military grade comes some degree of military decorum to go with it.

What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

It is also important to note that the regulation provides for advanced promotion based on unspecified "special" qualifications that are just so rare and special that we simply HAVE to promote them. So, there is always the possibility that an individual with either numerous advanced degrees in fields not otherwise covered or someone who simply has a very specialized skill we hope to utilize could find themselves in the same boat.

Senior Officers are (in theory at least) better equipped, through experience and training, to assume greater responsibility. Some people acquire that experience and training through being in CAP for a long time, other times, people acquire those skills elsewhere. It is not "unfair" or "unjust" it just is.

[Eclipse]

What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

Advanced promotions are not about what they can get away with while no one is looking, they are about recognition for services or abilities that a member brings to the table for CAP use.  In your example, physicians are commissioned higher as much as a recruiting and retention tool as in recognition of their officership abilities.

Say what you want about pilots, lawyers, teachers, or even IT people, getting advanced grade - at least they are allowed and encouraged to use their outside skills in direct service of CAP with no gray area to get them in trouble.  Not the case with medical professionals.

Show me an MD who is willing to give pilots free flight physicals, and I'm more than willing to call them the unit's Medical Officer, otherwise, Charles Emerson Winchester all taught us that being a great surgeon and an educated person doesn't necessarily make you a leader.

My personal experience with individuals who have been conferred advanced grade based on skills they can't, or won't, use in a CAP capacity is that they tend towards an undeserved arrogance and implied knowledge of the program, despite having no real idea what is going on in CAP, or paramilitary environments in general.

We desperately need people who have life skills and professions that encourage responsibility, attention to detail, and service before self, but if they don't have a skill that will be put to use by CAP (and preferably demonstrated before the promotion), they don't deserve to be promoted simply because they found the top quark.

[capme]

I just completed RSC - what a colossal waste of my time!!!  While we are fixing the PD system why don't we go all the way and stamp some meaningful experience into RSC? 

I agree we need to restructure the PD and advancement system.  This proposal makes sense - therefore it will never fly with the bureaucracy.

[Eclipse]

I just completed RSC - what a colossal waste of my time!!!  While we are fixing the PD system why don't we go all the way and stamp some meaningful experience into RSC? 

RSC's are completely local - they have curriculum to meet, but they are basically the whim of the respective Region CC.

I have heard good things regarding the PCR RSC.

[Gunner C]

Wow, extremely high poll support and all positive comments.  Now I really wish that this was my original idea.

Speaking of original ideas . . .

Tune you Wayback Machines™ to April 10, 2008:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4710.msg91558#msg91571

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Short Field]

How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade.

LOL, it must really frost you to know that depending on education and experience, a Physician can enter the military as a O-6.

[Lt Oliv]

What can the physician "legally" do in CAP? The Physician can do anything he/she is trained to do, especially when it comes to saving a life. That physician will not open up a medical tent a la MASH and begin operating on cadets, in that respect, you are correct. But that does not change the fact that they are physicians.

Advanced promotions are not about what they can get away with while no one is looking, they are about recognition for services or abilities that a member brings to the table for CAP use.  In your example, physicians are commissioned higher as much as a recruiting and retention tool as in recognition of their officership abilities.

Say what you want about pilots, lawyers, teachers, or even IT people, getting advanced grade - at least they are allowed and encouraged to use their outside skills in direct service of CAP with no gray area to get them in trouble.  Not the case with medical professionals.

Show me an MD who is willing to give pilots free flight physicals, and I'm more than willing to call them the unit's Medical Officer, otherwise, Charles Emerson Winchester all taught us that being a great surgeon and an educated person doesn't necessarily make you a leader.

My personal experience with individuals who have been conferred advanced grade based on skills they can't, or won't, use in a CAP capacity is that they tend towards an undeserved arrogance and implied knowledge of the program, despite having no real idea what is going on in CAP, or paramilitary environments in general.

We desperately need people who have life skills and professions that encourage responsibility, attention to detail, and service before self, but if they don't have a skill that will be put to use by CAP (and preferably demonstrated before the promotion), they don't deserve to be promoted simply because they found the top quark.

First of all, most MDs CANNOT do flight physicals. Have you ever checked the list of approved providers? In our area, we have two.

Our medical personnel ARE willing to provide First Aid/CPR Training to seniors and cadets.

Our medical personnel ARE willing to be on hand in the event of a medical emergency. Think a Doctor won't step up to save a life due to malpractice? They'd probably get hit twice as hard for NOT acting and someone dying.

My concern is that people seem to view MDs/RNs and other medical practitioners as not offering their skills to CAP. Why? Because a Doctor won't crack open a chest at encampment? A nurse won't administer vaccines?

Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.

[Lt Oliv]

How unfair! How unjust! How dare the military award that Physician a higher pay grade.

LOL, it must really frost you to know that depending on education and experience, a Physician can enter the military as a O-6.

Wow, I really laid the sarcasm on pretty thick. I was pretty confident it would be noticed. The rest of the rant basically goes on to say the opposite, the line you quotes was a mock of the complaint being expressed over advanced grade. Like here:

This is the reality of the military.

What's that? We're NOT the military? Gotcha, you're a civilian style "First Lieutenant" or "Major" are you? I'll bet your uniform bears no resemblance to that of the USAF. I'll be it doesn't even say "U.S. Air Force" anywhere on your membership card, right?

With military grade comes some degree of military decorum to go with it.

[Lt Oliv]

Very strange. I posted the last reply and it seems to have posted this last box that I cannot delete.

[NC Hokie]

My concern is that people seem to view MDs/RNs and other medical practitioners as not offering their skills to CAP. Why? Because a Doctor won't crack open a chest at encampment? A nurse won't administer vaccines?

Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.

Actually, I think the problem people have with medical professionals getting advanced grade is that our own regulations place severe restrictions on what they can do in CAP.  If you look at it as a business transaction, CAP is paying a premium (advanced grade) for something that it will never fully use (medical training and expertise).

[Eclipse]

Our medical personnel ARE willing to provide First Aid/CPR Training to seniors and cadets.

Which is great, except under the current system they are not qualified to provide that training as they do not have a certifying body behind them.

Having medical professionals on staff provides us with an excellent resource in the event of an emergency. They provide peace of mind for parents. And those professionals ARE willing to offer their skills in the event of an emergency. They are a valuable resource who provide positive examples to cadets.

They are not a resource at all in an emergency, as they are not allowed to provide treatment in their uniform, and when they serve on staff at various activities, they tend to want to treat patients instead of calling EMS.

You can pull all the "what-if's" out of your hat that you want, but that won't change the current state of the regulations, program, or curriculum.  The bottom line is that the specific skillset of a medical professional is less valuable and more risky to CAP than someone with the ability to actually teach first aid.

That doesn't mean I am happy about it, or even agree with it, but it is what it is.

[NavLT]

I have no problems with the change of PD levels to match promotions.  but it is an administrative change it won't change the batches of Maj and LT Col who had (did some one say graft and neopotism)their speicalty track training pencil whipped and slept through all that training to get the shinny baubles on their epaulets.

I also agree with the string that says if wing commanders are eagles region commander should have a star and if that means the  national vice commander should have 2 and the national commander have 3 then so be it. I think too much goes into the Air Univ commander having the same or more than us is a little silly.

Lt J

[Patterson]

Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

For a person who is a great Squadron Commander and runs the biggest and best performing Squadron in a Wing, I think promotions up to and including Lt Col should be allowed if that person completes the "duty-performance-promotion" requirements.

Shame on Wing Commanders for arbitrarily placing restrictions that are not found in the CAP Regs. 

[RVT]

Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

First I've heard of that.

[Eclipse]

Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

Actually, some wings have tried that and when objections were raised, the practice stopped.

Commanders can always use the squishy "he's not ready" as justification for denial of promotion, but putting additional objective criteria in place for a promotion is clearly and specifically prohibited by regulations.   

[Patterson]

Some Wings already will not allow promotions past Captain unless you are on Group or Wing Staff. 

Actually, some wings have tried that and when objections were raised, the practice stopped.

Commanders can always use the squishy "he's not ready" as justification for denial of promotion, but putting additional objective criteria in place for a promotion is clearly and specifically prohibited by regulations.

I believe the most recent was from Pennsylvania Wing, where the Wing Commander even has the "new promotion system" on their website.  So, its been in place for  months....yet no one has challenged it and National has decided it is OK, just by their inaction.  So, PA is not following regulations then.  They should fire that Wing Commander (again).   

However, I am not a "connected" person in the CAP political machine.  Guess if I were a PA Wing Member I would be a Captain for my entire time in CAP.   

[Short Field]

Sure destroys any incentive for professional development.   If you don't suck up to the Wing King to get a Wing or Group command job, you are out of luck.  They must have some very fragile egos in Pennsylvania.

[keystone102]

I believe this policy came from the Region Commander.

[Custer]

However, I am not a "connected" person in the CAP political machine.  Guess if I were a PA Wing Member I would be a Captain for my entire time in CAP.

I've been a Captain in CAP since 1986.

[Capt Rivera]

So who is going to write up the proposal and get their Wing CC to sponsor it? Once thats done others can ask their Wing CC to support it out the gate. (co sponsor)

[ZigZag911]

I believe this policy came from the Region Commander.

Col Hayden (NER CC), according to my information, usually conducts a phone interview with lt col candidates (or has CV do it), to make sure the person is actively contributing to CAP in a manner that merits promotion to lt col...basically an informal promotion board for lt col .however, I have not heard of any region requirements that candidates for lt col promotion serve in particular assignments or at higher HQ levels.

[arajca]

So who is going to write up the proposal and get their Wing CC to sponsor it? Once thats done others can ask their Wing CC to support it out the gate. (co sponsor)

I'll work it, but I'll be posting several items as I go for clarification to make sure everyone understands what is really being proposed.

First - The Problem:
1. Few senior members complete Level 5 since there is little incentive in today's world.
2. Attaining the grade of Lt Col is merely a matter of not getting trouble and waiting out your time.
3. Earning a technician rating is 'triple dipping' since the member gets the Leadership ribbon, a badge, and a promotion to 1st Lt.
4.  Because of 3. 1st Lt is unlike the remaining grades, each of which requires completion of a PD Level.

Am I missing anything? The issue of the Benjamin O. Davis award not having a ribbon associated with it is a separate issue.

Note: I am just posting the basics. The proposal will be properly massaged and wordsmithed prior to posting here.

[AlphaSigOU]

I know, it'll never happen... what about giving 'chicken colonel' to Level V holders?

OK... let's not make it right away. Let's say they meet the following requirements:

• Completed Level V
• Completed Executive level (whatever the highest level is) of Organizational Excellence specialty track
• Minimum of 20 years active service in CAP. Service need not be consecutive, but all periods of service must be documented. If a former cadet, time also counts, but must also document any cadet milestone awards.
• Be an active member for at least eight years as a Lt Col (continuing the TIG progression)
• Successfully completed a term as a squadron commander or group commander
• Initial appointment by national commander, with recommendation and concurrence from wing and region commanders
  Appointment is probationary for one year, permanent appointment to Col only upon national commander approval and published in NHQ promotion orders.
• If the individual is appointed a wing or region commander after attaining the grade through professional development and duty performance, appointment is permanent only on completion of term.

Serious hoops to jump but methinks the wing kings and region rajahs will nix that idea fast.

[MSG Mac]

Good proposal, except for the OE track requirement, I meet all 5 criteria.

[Short Field]

I know, it'll never happen... what about giving 'chicken colonel' to Level V holders?

That proposal makes me actually like the OP's proposal.  That is all we need - more people walking around with eagles thinking they actually have authority.

[SarDragon]

c. Colonel. The grade of colonel is reserved for members of the National Board, region vice commanders, the Chief of the Chaplain Service, CAP Inspector General, National Safety Officer, National Historian, and the Chief of the CAP Health Program. The National Executive Committee (NEC) is the only agency authorized to otherwise promote senior members to the grade of colonel. Such promotions are announced in personnel actions published by National Headquarters. All colonel promotions are temporary. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended to the NEC for approval by the commander of the individual concerned.

Until the above is changed, Chuck's proposal won't fly.

I thought I read something in the AF regs to go along with this, making this change almost impossible, but I can't find it right now.

[arajca]

First stab.

[DakRadz]

 As with the current system, members may complete the levels before attaining required for their next promotion.

Is there supposed to be another word in the bolded?

[CCAlex]

I think that all command positions need to be filled with somebody that used to have one. its like presidents. the best presidents are the ones who have been governor or something like that

[PhoenixRisen]

I think that all command positions need to be filled with somebody that used to have one. its like presidents.

Used to have one, what?  A command position?  First of all, serving in a lower office is not a requirement or pre-requisite to hold the office of the POTUS.  Military / CAP-wise, if you make that a "requirement", how do you get the lower-ranking members in on the command experience in the first place?  If all command positions need to be filled with someone who has held previous command of something, where do they start out?  (i.e. A squadron is the "basic" unit of CAP.  Where does a future squadron commander gain their experience before being given command of a squadron?)

the bet presidents are the ones who have been governor or something like that

Presidental politics aside, I don't care for blanket statements like that.  I've seen plenty of leaders (CAP, government, or otherwise) that have had no previous "command" (or equivilant) experience, and have done great jobs, while I have also seen those who have risen through each possible echelon, and done horrible.

[Bluelakes 13]

Used to have one, what?  A command position?  First of all, serving in a lower office is not a requirement or pre-requisite to hold the office of the POTUS.  Military / CAP-wise, if you make that a "requirement", how do you get the lower-ranking members in on the command experience in the first place?  If all command positions need to be filled with someone who has held previous command of something, where do they start out?  (i.e. A squadron is the "basic" unit of CAP.  Where does a future squadron commander gain their experience before being given command of a squadron?)

Assistant PAO -> PAO -> Deputy CC -> CC

[DakRadz]

So a new squadron starting up can't have a Sqd/CC until he's been all of those? How does that work out?

I agree with Phoenix. Just because someone goes through the echelons doesn't make them outstanding. Or even capable. It really depends on the person.

Also, as a PAO, was that a shameless plug for your track? If so, nice.

If not, perhaps you're a bit biased?

[PhoenixRisen]

So a new squadron starting up can't have a Sqd/CC until he's been all of those? How does that work out?

I agree with Phoenix. Just because someone goes through the echelons doesn't make them outstanding. Or even capable. It really depends on the person.

Also, as a PAO, was that a shameless plug for your track? If so, nice.

If not, perhaps you're a bit biased?

I don't think there was supposed to be the connection between the PAO and Deputy Cdr.  Two different things. 

Asst PAO -> PAO
Asst IT Officer -> IT Officer
Deputy Cdr -> Cdr

And on that note...

/PhoenixCadet withdraws that comment, as he hadn't even thought of Assistants or Deputies.

[DakRadz]

Assistant PAO -> PAO -> Deputy CC -> CC

But he has an arrow between DCC and PAO. That's what made me think what I do.

I tried bolding that arrow- doesn't work. But you can see it easily.

I think we should just agree that there are valid reasons why cadets do not run the senior program, and only have an advisory opinion on the CP (CAC).

[CCAlex]

what I meant was it is better for presidents to have a command position for experience.

[DakRadz]

In which case the comment was unnecessary. But if that's what you really meant, then you shouldn't have worded your statement that way.

I think that all command positions need to be filled with somebody that used to have one. its like presidents. the bet presidents are the ones who have been governor or something like that

You didn't say just Presidents, you said all command positions. Emphasis mine.

[CCAlex]

ok edit MOST

[DakRadz]

I only offered some spail chek (spell check for the humorously challenged) advice for the proposal that was posted. I wasn't about to offer advice on SM promotions.

Generally, conversations like this are not cadet-friendly territory. Do you see why?

[MSG Mac]

what I meant was it is better for presidents to have a command position for experience.

Harry Truman did pretty well despite his lack of an "Executive" position, prior to becoming President. Ditto Abraham Lincoln.

[CCAlex]

I am not asking who did better despite an executive position. I am merely pointing out that it might influence the odds of a better outcome for that presidency or term. EG: national commander of CAP

[ZigZag911]

A sqdn CC or deputy need to demonstrate leadership ability for a substantial period prior to appointment. This prior experience may even be outside CAP (e.g., law enforcement, regular military, other cadet programs and so forth).

Requiring prior command experience to serve at our first level of command is counterproductive: we'd never develop new commanders!

Beyond squadron level, commanders/deputies really do need solid prior command/deputy experience at a squadron first. I've seen a couple of "Instant Wing Kings" who lacked this (or prior military command, or really anything similar); it was, to be polite, less than optimal!

[Patterson]

Well for the huge lack of experience many of our Wing and Region and National Commanders have had for the past 30 years, we seem to be OK.  Were not on fire, not sinking!

Heck we are still the Full time Air Force Auxiliary, we get great Air Force Equipment and support, there are tons of AF reservists willing to help us out, we don't have mandatory safety training take up 1/3 of each months meetings, we are able to keep our own bank accounts and pay for things with Squadron funds, not personal credit and wait for reimbursement.  We are not relegated to wearing Grey rank slides on our Blues, nor do we have to pay tons more when we purchase anything from the CAP Bookstore.  The Supply depot keeps all of us stocked with MRE's, and spare aircraft parts, we are able to pick and choose the best repair shop in our local areas.  No Wing or Region Commanders are getting kick-backs from setting up centralized aircraft maintenance programs.  We are able to get Airlifts and Vans and Trucks and Buses from the military to take our members anywhere they want to go.  We are not embarrassed of a previous National Commanders lack of integrity, nor do we have internet bloggers making crazy claims against our current National Commander. Not to mention how great it is to have a paid Air Force staff in almost every Wing. 

^ Oh thats right, its 2010, not 1980.  My goof.

[HGjunkie]

Well for the huge lack of experience many of our Wing and Region and National Commanders have had for the past 30 years, we seem to be OK.  Were not on fire, not sinking!

Heck we are still the Full time Air Force Auxiliary, we get great Air Force Equipment and support, there are tons of AF reservists willing to help us out, we don't have mandatory safety training take up 1/3 of each months meetings, we are able to keep our own bank accounts and pay for things with Squadron funds, not personal credit and wait for reimbursement.  We are not relegated to wearing Grey rank slides on our Blues, nor do we have to pay tons more when we purchase anything from the CAP Bookstore.  The Supply depot keeps all of us stocked with MRE's, and spare aircraft parts, we are able to pick and choose the best repair shop in our local areas.  No Wing or Region Commanders are getting kick-backs from setting up centralized aircraft maintenance programs.  We are able to get Airlifts and Vans and Trucks and Buses from the military to take our members anywhere they want to go.  We are not embarrassed of a previous National Commanders lack of integrity, nor do we have internet bloggers making crazy claims against our current National Commander. Not to mention how great it is to have a paid Air Force staff in almost every Wing. 

^ Oh thats right, its 2010, not 1980.  My goof.

1980 sounds like a good world to be in...

[DakRadz]

Oh. Snap.

[Dern]. Too bad I wasn't even alive back then.

At least Patterson seems to agree upper levels should require experience.... That's the only positive I got from that.

[FW]

Well for the huge lack of experience many of our Wing and Region and National Commanders have had for the past 30 years, we seem to be OK.  Were not on fire, not sinking!

Heck we are still the Full time Air Force Auxiliary, we get great Air Force Equipment and support, there are tons of AF reservists willing to help us out, we don't have mandatory safety training take up 1/3 of each months meetings, we are able to keep our own bank accounts and pay for things with Squadron funds, not personal credit and wait for reimbursement.  We are not relegated to wearing Grey rank slides on our Blues, nor do we have to pay tons more when we purchase anything from the CAP Bookstore.  The Supply depot keeps all of us stocked with MRE's, and spare aircraft parts, we are able to pick and choose the best repair shop in our local areas.  No Wing or Region Commanders are getting kick-backs from setting up centralized aircraft maintenance programs.  We are able to get Airlifts and Vans and Trucks and Buses from the military to take our members anywhere they want to go.  We are not embarrassed of a previous National Commanders lack of integrity, nor do we have internet bloggers making crazy claims against our current National Commander. Not to mention how great it is to have a paid Air Force staff in almost every Wing. 

^ Oh thats right, its 2010, not 1980.  My goof.

1980 sounds like a good world to be in...

Yeah, right....
1980; we're as much the Air Force Auxiliary today.  Don't fall for that BS.
1980; mandatory safety briefings; well you have me there.
1980; the only equipment wings received were from DRMO or member donated equipment.  Today we have over $10 million in new communications equipment, computers and, a fleet of modern Cessnas; with a consistant supply of new vans every year.
1980; Air Force mandays were plentiful to dole out to reservists.  It went away with the numerous  "deployments" since the mid 90's.  Gee, the air force needed the aircraft for wartime missions.  Oh, well.  Same with military busses and vans.
1980; The supply depot and bookstore were breaking us almost as bad as our foray into NASCAR did in 2001.
1980; Kick Backs? Why do you think we now have consolodated maint. for our aircraft?  Maybe we should ask a former GAWG/CC how many of his aircraft just rusted away?  Maybe we should ask a former NJWG/CC why there was 15 lbs of body puddy used to "repair" a dented aircraft instead of properly repairing the aircraft with new sheet metal.  Or maybe we should ask a former PAWG/CC why an engine was installed using the plastic washers from the packing crate it came in.  I have a few more examples of "using the best repair shop in our local areas" but, I think you get the picture.
1980; squadron funds were unaccounted for and routinely went "missing".  Today, every penny is accounted for and no one needs to be reimbursed for out of pocket expenses; even for emergancy expenses.  I spent way more out of pocket then than now. 
1980; You think we weren't embarrassed when we went from blue to maroon?
1980; We had no idea back then how our leaders acted.  Now we have some idea; no matter how "crazy" we think these "bloggers" are. 
1980; our PD program had absolutely no relationship with leadership position or grade;  members were routinely promoted for being in the GOBN.  Things are better today however, we still have a long way to go.

Talk about short memories

[NavLT]

I agree that POSITIVE experience should be required.  Not sure in an organization where 5 seniors at a unit are up to fill the CC slot because he died/left/quit and none of them have any........

I would hope that Group, Wing, Region and National have a criteria looked at but the broken well at the squadrons could lead to 3 people up for group who were all poor unit commanders, and 4 poor group commanders for Wing CC. 

Not too sure what the criteria of positive command expereince is since I run into unit commanders who play the metrics game only to get recongnized.  A good leader does not applaud more mitchels than the next guy when the cadets in question did not really earn the pips.

Nuff Said (as stan lee would say)

Lt J

[Patterson]

.............should ask a former PAWG/CC why an engine was installed using the plastic washers from the packing crate it came in

??  Wow.  That is crazy!  May not know it, but many military planes are put together with plastic clips, rings, locks, screws and washers.  Some Plastics are stronger than many metals. 

All depends on environmental situations (temp, moisture, etc.) and functionality of the part itself. 

I am confused about your reference though.  Are you saying the engine was mounted with plastic washers taken off of the crate itself?  You would be surprised if you opened up a Cessna right off the line today and saw how many plastic washers there actually are.

Heck, Lockheed buys millions worth of plastic washers, bolts and screws.   

[RiverAux]

First stab.

Have you gotten any traction with this idea? 

[sleepyboyd]

I agree with the shift... but then again, I'm a major with Level 4, so I don't care....  Major is the best rank anyway... high enough to be taken seriously, but low enough to not be taken too seriously.

On active duty the USAF promotes someone to Captain faster than the other branches do, even though major still comes at the same 11 year point. 

US Air Force promotes to 2nd to 1st LT at 2 years service automatic.  USAF promotes 1st Lt to Captain by board eligiable at 2 years of service... currently a 99% rate of promotion (I know a guy who didn't cut it... he was a bag of donuts)... and Major boards currently meet at the 8-9 year mark.

The US Army can get you to O-3 in 3 years....