Draft 60-1 out for comment

[RiverAux]

A new draft of 60-1 is out for comment and is available here: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_001_draft_5337BBDFAC91C.pdf

Looks mostly like a lot of procedural changes and I didn't see anything that I'd call a major change. 

I am a little befuddled by the change that would allow those in CAP tow planes to not wear uniforms.  Were the tow pilots mad that they were the only ones at glider activities that had to wear a uniform and look professional? 

[capchiro]

Actually, some of the tow pilots are also glider pilots and they trade positions during the day at encampments and the uniforms are too hot to wear when flying the gliders..  A very reasonable accomodation for our great pilots that work the glider program.. Kudos to National.

[a2capt]

More so, they don't like boots in gliders for a number of reasons, kicking the airframe, busting things inside with rigidness, but also unless you are well trained (accustomed to them), your first flights won't be very good if you can't "feel" the rudder, the feedback from the pedal, etc. Boots do that until you've become well used to having them on. But since there's no real place for them in the aircraft ..

So with the vast differences in uniform options, it was easier to bring the acceptable standards from the glider into the tow plane since there are plenty of times when pilots swap around during the course of an activity. 

[RiverAux]

Okay, that seems reasonable to me.

[Eclipse]

Then there should be an approved and required soaring uniform, not just "don't wear one"...

[AirAux]

Okay, the CAP uniform will be anything that is NOT in CAPM 39-1..  That is actually fairly limiting considering the number of uniforms in CAPM 39-1.  In reality, during an encampment a T-shirt is issued and a hat is issued.  Blue shorts are specified.  Rubber soled athletic shoes are specified, so it seems we have it covered.. Oh, don't forget cool shades and sun block..  That is all..  Carry on..

[a2capt]

The glider attire is left up to the glider units and usually specified as PT, be it BDU pants and t-shirt or shorts.  PT can mean sneakers or such instead of boots. That takes care of that. No other uniforms were harmed in the presentation of this regulation. All similarities are purely coincidental.

[Al Sayre]

I'd recommend our "Southern States Hot weather Flying Uniform"  Khaki Shorts, CAP uniform Polo shirt, sport socks and athletic shoes.  It looks reasonably uniform and professional, and it really helps keep you cool when it's over 90 degrees in the cockpit.  There's more danger from heat exhaustion than fire... JMHO

[DG]

I'd recommend our "Southern States Hot weather Flying Uniform"  Khaki Shorts, CAP uniform Polo shirt, sport socks and athletic shoes.  It looks reasonably uniform and professional, and it really helps keep you cool when it's over 90 degrees in the cockpit.  There's more danger from heat exhaustion than fire... JMHO

We had a chance to do this two years ago.

After it was brought to a vote at the National Board, and after the proposal was defeated, a cheer rang out.

[RiverAux]

Hearing that cheer almost made all the time I've wasted watching NB webstreams worthwhile...

[a2capt]

LOLOL ... Woohoo! You'd think we were those guys flying Mallards from the dock sides.. 

[DG]

Hearing that cheer almost made all the time I've wasted watching NB webstreams worthwhile...

So everyone was giddy and cheerful.  In River City.  When the proposed summer uniform was voted down.

So now (draft new 60-1) tow pilots can wear shorts and t-shirts of their choosing.  With catchy logos and pictures and phrases.  Like "Donde Cervesa?"  And sandals.  And flip flops.  Yipee.

Smart!  (Not)

[RiverAux]

Not an exact parallell there -- gilders fly anywhere in the US while the "summer" proposal was probably never going to be adopted by anyone in the northern US anyway. 

[heliodoc]

Well Well Well

A new "draft" for the 60-1 including 5 paragraphs to delineate the G1000 program, eh?

CAP finally realizing the training from "outside" CAP is finally going to be somewhat recognized?  Maybe the inequities and the lack of training standards is finally hitting home down at Maxwell...you know, sending CFI's down to Independence, KS and some of those "pro CFI's " in CAP coming home with nary a training program (spell NO written training program in my Wing from CFI's receiving the training 4 to 5 yrs ago) and NEVER establishing anything similar to Cessna's.

Hopefully that draft puts some more meat on a REAL training program that many civilian FBO's have.  It truly is amazing that CAP has had 5-6 yrs to figure this out and reallly did nothing til now except put up a 60-1 reflecting some of these issues.

This is where the true 60-1 needs help....not some worries about uniform needs to be worn in a CAP glider....hasn't CAP had a glider program for at least 10 to 15 yrs now and now are just coming to the point of 60-1ing a uniform?

WOW  CAP IS behind even in addressing uniform for a glider....takes that much energy at a NB meeting to address this?

That is a TRUE waste of time!

[tdepp]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

FWIW, the cheapo blue coveralls/flight suit we fatties have to wear (if we can't afford or don't want to buy the nice Nomex blue flight suit version) is basically like wearing blue colored nothing.  No possible way you could be hot in it.  Even when it's warm, I wear plenty underneath it.    Just a thought.

The USCG and USCGAux do have a tropical undress uniform shorts version (I may have the name wrong).  We could adopt some version of that (with USAF approval).  But of course we would also need a Corporate Bermuda Shorts Undress version for us fatsos who exceed the CAP weight limits. 

On the other hand, just move along.  Nothing to see here.  Everything I've heard about the glider flights has been positive and an awesome experience for the Cadets.  I'm jealous and would love to take a soaring flight.  And I would even be properly dressed for it.  I'm thinking Mess Dress Uniform? 

[Eclipse]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

Sadly, yes - not because its that important, but because these baseline decisions aren't made and closed with a period the way they should be.  Its also because most of the challenges surrounding uniforms are generated by either the 1%'ers who can't be bothered to wear one or wear it correctly, or who want to be hardkewl and do something a little "different" (whether its a beret or a patch in a different place).  Any wonder why many of the activities which generate dissension are tied to these "differences"?

In the case of the glider uniform, unless you're flying "au naturel", if you're in your own glider you're likely in shorts and a t-shirt or golf shirt, so its not unreasonable when CAP lets you fly our (in many cases) new, fancy gliders, and get tows for cheap / free, that your clothing identifies you as a member of the organization.

[tdepp]

Well Well Well

A new "draft" for the 60-1 including 5 paragraphs to delineate the G1000 program, eh?

CAP finally realizing the training from "outside" CAP is finally going to be somewhat recognized?  Maybe the inequities and the lack of training standards is finally hitting home down at Maxwell...you know, sending CFI's down to Independence, KS and some of those "pro CFI's " in CAP coming home with nary a training program (spell NO written training program in my Wing from CFI's receiving the training 4 to 5 yrs ago) and NEVER establishing anything similar to Cessna's.

Hopefully that draft puts some more meat on a REAL training program that many civilian FBO's have.  It truly is amazing that CAP has had 5-6 yrs to figure this out and reallly did nothing til now except put up a 60-1 reflecting some of these issues.

This is where the true 60-1 needs help....not some worries about uniform needs to be worn in a CAP glider....hasn't CAP had a glider program for at least 10 to 15 yrs now and now are just coming to the point of 60-1ing a uniform?

WOW  CAP IS behind even in addressing uniform for a glider....takes that much energy at a NB meeting to address this?

That is a TRUE waste of time!

I'm not a pilot but I play one on TV.    I'm an MS and an MO trainee and I've taken one of the G1000 classes offered by the SDWG.  I probably didn't understand 80% as a non-pilot* but it was, I thought, an excellent course with good materials, a great powerpoint, and our instructor was a SDWG MP who had attended the Cessna school in Kansas.  He was knowledgeable both from a practical and theoretical standpoint.  The pilots then had another day where they had hands on.  So, at least in SD, it's my observation that the "train the trainers" has worked just fine.

On the other hand, I'd defer to the pilots as to what they think is the best way of doing this training. 

The only complaint I hear from our SDWG pilots (MP and otherwise) is that they'd like to see the training happen more often so it is more convenient for more pilots, not that there was any deficiency in the presentation.

*And I'll probably take the course again, now that I've actually flown missions as an MS and will have to understand a big chunk of the right side of the glass cockpit to eventually get my MO rating.  It will make more sense.  Believe me, I have the utmost respect for the brains (and good judgment) a pilot has to have and all the information they need to master to be safe and proficient.  Yeah, I have a man crush. . .   :angel:

[mynetdude]

Wow.  It always comes back to uniforms, no matter what the issue, doesn't it?  Astounding.

FWIW, the cheapo blue coveralls/flight suit we fatties have to wear (if we can't afford or don't want to buy the nice Nomex blue flight suit version) is basically like wearing blue colored nothing.  No possible way you could be hot in it.  Even when it's warm, I wear plenty underneath it.    Just a thought.

The USCG and USCGAux do have a tropical undress uniform shorts version (I may have the name wrong).  We could adopt some version of that (with USAF approval).  But of course we would also need a Corporate Bermuda Shorts Undress version for us fatsos who exceed the CAP weight limits. 

On the other hand, just move along.  Nothing to see here.  Everything I've heard about the glider flights has been positive and an awesome experience for the Cadets.  I'm jealous and would love to take a soaring flight.  And I would even be properly dressed for it.  I'm thinking Mess Dress Uniform? 

Was told SMs can ride in the glider, not free though.

[DG]

Not an exact parallell there -- gilders fly anywhere in the US while the "summer" proposal was probably never going to be adopted by anyone in the northern US anyway.

Huh?

And your comment makes sense how?

If you think it does not get hot in the summer in Wings in the northern US, you seriously need to get out more.

I flew a 3 hour mission yesterday, and even with serious rehydrating, the mission aircrew in nomex flight suits had to call it off to avoid heat exhaustion.

And today is even hotter, with higher humidity.

So are you saying "We who do not fly in those states conclude that it is not needed or likely to be adopted in the northern US."  So let's vote it down.  And then cheer.

Not needed or likely to be adopted in the northern US?   

Why do you think NESA MAS has a special activity uniform incorporating shorts and activity t-shirt?  Try flying low and slow all day in the heat and humidity over Indiana corn fields.

I guess next you will claim Indiana is a southern state.  It is no different in Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey.  I will pass this along to all my air crews here.  They will be surprised to hear they must be in the south, because they want not to deal with heat exhaustion in the summer.

And then I will refer them to CAPTalk to learn that we were saved from the embarrassment that would have come from wearing shorts and golf shirt in the winter time.  The CAP guys who voted against the new summer uniform, and then cheered, wanted to protect us from any such embarrassment.  They were very thoughtful that way, looking out for our best interests, looking out for others.  Looking out for their colleagues.

And if you still want to be foolish, and wear a summer uniform, that was rejected at the summer Board two years ago, now go out and tow and wear whatever you want.

And to you in Wings in the southern US, because it is not likely to be adopted by those in the northern US, we must vote it down, and then cheer.

[Eclipse]

Every SAR agency and similar that I have ever worked with / seen on TV, etc., has a summer variant that includes shorts - including PD and FD.

The outcry against common sense that took place in relation to a summer uniform just makes no sense at all.