2009 CAP Homeland Security study bill

[Rotorhead]

Man, the people on this board do spend an inordinate amount of time discussing (or, more bluntly put, dreaming about) how CAP could/would/should/might do missions other than the stated ES/AE/Cadet Programs.

Edited to clarify

[RiverAux]

Man, the people on this board do spend an inordinate amount of time discussing (or, more bluntly put, dreaming about) how CAP could/would/should/might do missions other than the stated SAR/AE/Cadet Programs.

Considering that SAR isn't a stated purpose of CAP in the law that created us, it isn't dreaming.  Among the stated purposes are to meet local and national emergencies and to help the Dept. of the AF in its noncombat programs and missions,and to contibute to the public welfare.  That leaves a whole lot of potential missions that would be just as legitimate as SAR. 

[heliodoc]

Potential missions legitimate as SAR.....granted

If SAR wasn't our intended purpose then law enforcement or riding on law enforcements coat tails and discussing all that PCA stuff isn't either..

BITD, CAP was under NO involvement in LE and now we got folks thinking we are saddling up for the Mexican border, strapping on our Kombat Air Patrol ASEK knives and dreamin' of strapping on a M4 or an HK fast roping out of a UH60 "assisting" CBP in our Missions for America.

Look, if we can not meet the sheer basics of what is requested of us in as far as getting the ICS I courses by FEMA done in time......  and I sure know CAPers who thought that was a joke, too.

If we are dreamin of all those DHS missions other than ARCHER and support missions to EMA's, then we had beef up CAP's ability to function out of its 501(c) 3 environment and get signed on immediately to the DHS

Again with what is happenin' with the Homeland Security bill, until it gets SERIOUS traction and when it does maybe CAP had beeter look out....we have been touting so LONG of ALLLLL those things we can do....there will be a day when CAP either bit off more than it could chew and then there won't be 'nuf CAPers around to fill ALLL the volunteer billets...

For you CAP types that want to play LE and get involved with PCA... maybe joining the Sheriffs Dept or SWAT team is what the Dr ordered

Let's see where this HS security bill goes.....we may not even be a blip on the radar screen with all the risk averse stuff at NHQ.  If we can not be entrusted getting our C182's out of a hangar without  a safety training video...how are we going to be entrusted with anything bigger than ARCHER missions and whatnot which are commendable missions.  But CAP is't going to be the decision  makers when it comes to disasters, we will remain a support function until the day the rules from Congress says we are more than we are.

PCA or not ....CAP is still a support function and not first responders in the true sense of the word......until someone signs off and says we are.

Let's see if the HS bill really puts CAP where it would desire to be and IF it all comes true, then be expecting some changes and COMMITMENT other than the CAP big three.  Expect new and measurable training standards.  The online stuff CAP currently has may or may not meeet muster AND those physical standards.......Wanna act like Border Patrol?   Try a 2 mile run EVERY day to keep up.......The word volunteer will have a whole new meaning for the folks who think we can handle ALL

Hope we get what we want.  Do not get your hopes up

[Rotorhead]

Look, if we can not meet the sheer basics of what is requested of us in as far as getting the ICS I courses by FEMA done in time......  and I sure know CAPers who thought that was a joke, too.

Exactly. Everyone who has heard other SAR groups (LE, or whatever) complain that CAP isn't qualified for and doesn't have the training for, SAR missions, raise your hand.

I know I have.

So, along comes FEMA and says, "Let's get you guys qualified for some of this stuff," (like the other SAR organizations)...and instead of saying, "Great, let's do it,"  all we hear is, "I don't have time to do these tests and these classes," etc., etc.

Yet on this board, we read dozens of posts about how CAP should also do this or that (or, God forbid, be involved in combat situations), when members won't even bother to learn the ICS system, which applies to what we do now.

How in the world can you believe these same members would submit to the kind of training these missions would require?

[RiverAux]

Exactly. Everyone who has heard other SAR groups (LE, or whatever) complain that CAP isn't qualified for and doesn't have the training for, SAR missions, raise your hand.

Anyone that has seen an inadequately equipped and untrained firefighter or law enforcement officer attempt to do ground SAR raise your hand....

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^^

Maybe CAP instructors could "help" in that "training"  I have seen some CAP ers help instruct Sheriffs Depts and they have some success in getting points across

This the reason for the other thread provided by sardak....

I can raise my hand, too.  But my current "paid" job requires that I work with both LE , wildland fire, and the general uneducated community about many thing folks are not familiar with

What are you doing RiverAux, to increase the awareness and training to those untrained folks?  People form the LE and other first response groups, maybe reading this, and may want your professional guidance

Or was that attempt at sarcasm??

[RiverAux]

Here are two examples of PCA issues that could potentially keep us from being as helpful as we might in homeland security issues on AFAMs.

1.  Patrolling the border.  If a CAP plane were patrolling the border and spotted a group of people climbing over the border fence, we would be well within current regulations to call in that location and even take some photos.  However, we most likely would not be able to continue to circle the area, follow their movements after crossing the fence, and guide law enforcement to their location. 

2.  Surveillance.  Say there is a suspected terrorist and the government would like to use a CAP plane to track their movements while they're driving to a meeting with other potential terrorists.  We probably couldn't do it as that would be more of a surveillance than a reconnaissance mission. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Some people just do not appear to be real deep thinkers here.

Every time DHS missions are discussed some posters feel a need to entertain us with sarcasm about combat-equipped Skyhawks and other nonsense that does not add to the discussion.

Now that you have vented your silliness, lets focus in on one comment that one poster made... something to the effect that we won't be doing LE missions until "Someone signs off on it."

In case you were not paying attention, the proposed bills in Congress may accomplish EXACTLY that sign off that the poster ridicules.

RiverAux nailed one point, that we already can support the DHS as an Aux of the AF, so the question then becomes... WHY is it necessary to create a new law to allow the DHS to directly task missions to CAP, by-passing the DoD and the Air Force?

The answer, and the only one that makes sense, is that by by-passing the Air Force and directly tasking CAP to perform DHS missions, then the problem of the PCA can be side-stepped.

You can argue that we never came under PCA in the first place (and you may be right), but since there is no case law, any positions on the PCA are based on opinions.

So... if the PCA does not or will not apply to CAP, then what missions can we expect from DHS?  Or, looking at it from another perspective, how will DHS view the new asset under its control?  What will DHS do with 500+ airplanes prepositioned around the country and 50,000+ volunteers with widely-varying levels of training? 

I realize that serious discussions require serious thought, and it is easier and way more fun to ridicule members who believe that new missions of some sort might be on the horizon and who want to plan for these potential missions.

[heliodoc]

Who needs to be a "deep thinker" here, John??

There are MORE things than CAP that DHS has to work and worry about

We may be so far down on a radar screen.

There seems to be alot of ridiculing here on CAPtalk.  But since I have work ed in the EM field, I do know how CAP is viewed in some arenas.  I ridiculed ASEK carrying knife carrying CAP C182 pilots (who may require it, more often a pocket knife). 

HOW or WHAT will DHS do with all those people or "big iron" we have when they have assets already under USCG, CBP, and others?? 

This does require ALOT of thought and maybe CAP is just a blip.  CAP probably could not stand on its own without 1AF, 501(C)3 status or any other type of help. 

Thanks for informing me about venting silliness, John, maybe Congress will approve what you think and what would happen if Congress says..."well CAP, looks like you re not what we are looking for"

Silliness??  Someone has to sign off on anything LE related and it sure isn't the general 50,000 plus membership that is going to get us in the first responder club.

Some here think they have the pulse on it all.  I could be accused of being pessimistic....but CAP may need an overhaul on its general training program   calll me silly

[JohnKachenmeister]

Who needs to be a "deep thinker" here, John??

There are MORE things than CAP that DHS has to work and worry about

We may be so far down on a radar screen.

There seems to be alot of ridiculing here on CAPtalk.  But since I have work ed in the EM field, I do know how CAP is viewed in some arenas.  I ridiculed ASEK carrying knife carrying CAP C182 pilots (who may require it, more often a pocket knife). 

HOW or WHAT will DHS do with all those people or "big iron" we have when they have assets already under USCG, CBP, and others?? 

This does require ALOT of thought and maybe CAP is just a blip.  CAP probably could not stand on its own without 1AF, 501(C)3 status or any other type of help. 

Thanks for informing me about venting silliness, John, maybe Congress will approve what you think and what would happen if Congress says..."well CAP, looks like you re not what we are looking for"

Silliness??  Someone has to sign off on anything LE related and it sure isn't the general 50,000 plus membership that is going to get us in the first responder club.

Some here think they have the pulse on it all.  I could be accused of being pessimistic....but CAP may need an overhaul on its general training program   calll me silly

I'm so sorry.  I had no idea that you "Worked in the EM field."

Now I feel bad, because all I have done is command a Guard battalion.  And work as a cop for 25 years.  And serve as a staff officer at various command levels.

So if you don't believe any thinking or planning, or discussion need take place, I yield to your superior judgement.  Because of your superior training and expertise I will now assume that CAP has no role under DHS that cannot be done by existing assets, and therefore I know that, even if the proposed legislation passes, we are collectively too incompetent to serve and therefore will never be called upon.

I'm sorry to have troubled you.

[cap235629]

Here are two examples of PCA issues that could potentially keep us from being as helpful as we might in homeland security issues on AFAMs.

1.  Patrolling the border.  If a CAP plane were patrolling the border and spotted a group of people climbing over the border fence, we would be well within current regulations to call in that location and even take some photos.  However, we most likely would not be able to continue to circle the area, follow their movements after crossing the fence, and guide law enforcement to their location. 

2.  Surveillance.  Say there is a suspected terrorist and the government would like to use a CAP plane to track their movements while they're driving to a meeting with other potential terrorists.  We probably couldn't do it as that would be more of a surveillance than a reconnaissance mission. 

HUH,

Did I miss something?
Why would this be a violation?

We are not doing anything more than observe and report......

[JohnKachenmeister]

Here are two examples of PCA issues that could potentially keep us from being as helpful as we might in homeland security issues on AFAMs.

1.  Patrolling the border.  If a CAP plane were patrolling the border and spotted a group of people climbing over the border fence, we would be well within current regulations to call in that location and even take some photos.  However, we most likely would not be able to continue to circle the area, follow their movements after crossing the fence, and guide law enforcement to their location. 

2.  Surveillance.  Say there is a suspected terrorist and the government would like to use a CAP plane to track their movements while they're driving to a meeting with other potential terrorists.  We probably couldn't do it as that would be more of a surveillance than a reconnaissance mission. 

HUH,

Did I miss something?
Why would this be a violation?

We are not doing anything more than observe and report......

The regulations are confusing, and the law is not clear.  The PCA was passed in the 1870's, and issues such as aerial observation could not be considered, since aerial flight had not yet occured, except for balloons.

In the first example, I actually kind of liked HWSRN's approach... To report their location and movements was not a Law Enforcement mission, it was a Rescue mission.  He just thought the Border Patrol should check them out to make sure they had enough water and stuff!

[heliodoc]

No trouble here, John

No superior anything , either

Never said planning or discussion need to take place, either

Never torched you about your service, sir .  Lighten your attitude towrds mine

CAPtalkers do NOT know it all

I sure don't .  But I have said enough for awhile

Let let thwe chips fall where thety may....our volunteer status MAY eliminate us from some services   We will see.  In the meantime, I will not hold my breath for CAP's glory days or daze in the up and coming DHS missions


DHS MAY say enough is enough, and send us on our merry way and leave us with 1AF

We Can not duplicate any first responder services, we can only support it and UNTIL Congress clears us and it is written....................
CAP talkers can speculate ALLLLLL they want about this subject

[RiverAux]

HUH,

Did I miss something?
Why would this be a violation?

We are not doing anything more than observe and report......

If you're in the counterdrug program you might want to review the online training program....

[wuzafuzz]

DHS probably doesn't want us anyway.  Secretary Napolitano apparently thinks many of us are right wing extremists and potential threats. Then again, if they keep us close they can keep an eye on all our veterans and gun owners.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

DHS probably doesn't want us anyway.  Secretary Napolitano apparently thinks many of us are right wing extremists and potential threats. Then again, if they keep us close they can keep an eye on all our veterans and gun owners.   

Yeah... I get it on two points.  I'm a combat veteran AND a firearm rights advocate.  Actually, I find it kinda cool to be officially declared a Threat to National Security. 

Not the first time I've been declared a Threat to National Security, though.  The last time I was so declared was by Ho Chi Minh, and the nation that I was declared a threat to was North Vietnam.

Chicks dig Threats to National Security.  The Harley and the leather helps, too.

Maybe I ought to put in on my signature line

[wuzafuzz]

DHS probably doesn't want us anyway.  Secretary Napolitano apparently thinks many of us are right wing extremists and potential threats. Then again, if they keep us close they can keep an eye on all our veterans and gun owners.   

Yeah... I get it on two points.  I'm a combat veteran AND a firearm rights advocate.  Actually, I find it kinda cool to be officially declared a Threat to National Security. 

Not the first time I've been declared a Threat to National Security, though.  The last time I was so declared was by Ho Chi Minh, and the nation that I was declared a threat to was North Vietnam.

Chicks dig Threats to National Security.  The Harley and the leather helps, too.

Maybe I ought to put in on my signature line

Love the signature line!  ROFLMAO.
Maybe I'll wear a "Threat to National Security" tee-shirt to work tomorrow.  I bet those would sell great right now.   

At least we aren't listed as threats because of our membership in CAP.  Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming.

[MIGCAP]

This entire area can not go anywhere good for CAP. Asking the Comptroller General and/or GAO to "look into your organization" is like begging the IRS to audit your taxes.  I can assure you that the last time the GAO and CAP met, it did not go well for CAP, and it will not this time.
The whole thing strikes me as "Nobody wants to play with us", therefore we'll go to the teacher and have her make the other kids play with us. That always led to problems on the playground.

[heliodoc]

^^^ Is not  the same event that someone once told me here, was ancient history??

[JayT]

It was like, ten years ago.