Tents for Ground Teams

[Jerry Jacobs]

Quick Question;

The packing list for 72 hour pack says you must bring shelter material and a tent.  I'm thinking that things like a tent and sleeping pad are not really needed.  When I went to NESA we spent overnight in shelters and that worked out pretty well for me.  So do we really need a tent and a bed roll when I will usually be in a forest and be making a hammock shelter.

Thanks,


C/SMSgt Jerry Jacobs

[MIKE]

What do you do when you are stuck out in a field with no trees to tie your shelter to... particularly if you are bivouacking in a mission base area... Maybe for a few days?  IIRC this is the point of the 72 hour pack versus the fast and light 24 hour pack.

[N Harmon]

Hi Jerry. I am not sure what part of the country you live in, but I live in Michigan. And while an improvised shelter would be okay here from about June to September, you would really be in a pickle spending a night in one here in February.



Now, I will be the first to admit that a one-size fits all equipment list doesn't make sense for the national CAP. I mean, the same packing list for a GTM in Florida and another in Alaska? Because of that, I think the list can be somewhat flexible.

[CAPSGT]

Shelter material should be in the 24 hour gear, no?  That's to carry with you as a fast shelter to set up in a pinch.  I carry a tarp for this.  When I go to set up my creature comforts tent back at base, I use the tarp from my 24 hour gear as a ground cloth for my tent.

As for actually using either, I've never had to set up a shelter in the middle of the woods.  Heck, the closest I've ever come to that is one time setting up a tent in a cow pasture that was used as a staging area for a missing person search.  Other than that, I've stayed in a hotel once, inside mission base a couple times, an airport terminal, and my own home several times (when either I lived close to base or had to drive home to swap team members out).

In other parts of the country it may be different, but in this part of the country (Maryland), you are never so far from a road that you can't get back to the van and drive to civilization.  It's typically much quicker and easier than setting up a natural shelter.

[cnitas]

  It's typically much quicker and easier than setting up a natural shelter.

Maybe I am just getting old, but you will also be much more rested and ready for the next day if you sleep in relative comfort instead of a makeshift shelter in the woods. 

To me as a Leader and GBD, that is more important from a safety pov, as well as a 'good decision making' point of view.  Remember, on a REDCAP, we are not playing boyscout, we are trying to find the victims as quickly as possible.  Camping in general is not quick and it is not very restfull.

[BigMojo]

Here's how I roll...


Packs down to the size of a big loaf of bread. Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

[cnitas]

Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

Yeah, but what about the rest of your team? They all going to be ready for lights out in 10 min?  I have a 1-man bikers tent I use.  It sets up in 60 seconds.  It is rare indeed that I get to just crash after setting up my tent.

My experience with cadets is that you are lucky to get a camp setup in under an hour.
We have a SAREX this Friday where everyone is camping.  I will get to see how fast our team gets setup. 

[davedove]

Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

Yeah, but what about the rest of your team? They all going to be ready for lights out in 10 min?  I have a 1-man bikers tent I use.  It sets up in 60 seconds.  It is rare indeed that I get to just crash after setting up my tent.

My experience with cadets is that you are lucky to get a camp setup in under an hour.
We have a SAREX this Friday where everyone is camping.  I will get to see how fast our team gets setup. 

Well, let's see.  The standard for setting up a shelter is under 30 minutes.  And onto that getting your gear inside and your sleeping bag and pad laid out.  Plus, extra time for some item that a person can't seem to find.  Extra time for cadets being cadets (and some seniors for that matter).

I don't think an hour is enough time.

Oh yeah, I forgot the time required to fire up the generator for my portable TV.

Of course, if we can get to a nearby hotel, I can be set up in about 5 minutes.

[BigMojo]

Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

Yeah, but what about the rest of your team? They all going to be ready for lights out in 10 min?  I have a 1-man bikers tent I use.  It sets up in 60 seconds.  It is rare indeed that I get to just crash after setting up my tent.

My experience with cadets is that you are lucky to get a camp setup in under an hour.
We have a SAREX this Friday where everyone is camping.  I will get to see how fast our team gets setup. 

With my Ground Team (There are 12 of us, 6 cadets) most of us use hammocks like mine, the remainder have ultralight two-man tents. YMMV but my team is highly mobile, and carry light. Just because I can be lights-out in 10min, doesn't mean I am obviously. But we made it a priority to be low impact, fast up, and fast struck.

[davedove]

Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

Yeah, but what about the rest of your team? They all going to be ready for lights out in 10 min?  I have a 1-man bikers tent I use.  It sets up in 60 seconds.  It is rare indeed that I get to just crash after setting up my tent.

My experience with cadets is that you are lucky to get a camp setup in under an hour.
We have a SAREX this Friday where everyone is camping.  I will get to see how fast our team gets setup. 

With my Ground Team (There are 12 of us, 6 cadets) most of us use hammocks like mine, the remainder have ultralight two-man tents. YMMV but my team is highly mobile, and carry light. Just because I can be lights-out in 10min, doesn't mean I am obviously. But we made it a priority to be low impact, fast up, and fast struck.

Of course, I also see that you're in Ft. Lauderdale.  I don't imagine you need the gear to keep warm anywhere near as often as we would.

But, that only makes sense.  Every team has to adapt to their own environment.

[Stonewall]

Back in the day (a Wednesday, by the way), before there were national standards on what to carry, I only carried a mil-spec poncho and 550 cord for shelter.  And I'd only carry a fartsack during winter time.

My poncho hooch would generally look something like this:



Then, as I grew up, got a pay check, moved to a much colder environment, I spent some hard earned cash and bought a Goretex Bivvy shelter (basically a one man tent).

Here's me in those younger years as a new 1st Lt (circa '94) with my Goretex shelter:



Then, I realized I need something with some room to move.  Those bivy shelters can be quite chlosterphobic for a growing boy.  So I moved up to a lightweight tent made by Mountain Hardware, something like this:



Then, I needed something a little less colorful and learnd that Eureka made military tents:



As for a sleeping bag, I used to only carry an EMS down sleeping bag.  Then, I needed something a little more versatile and found the modular sleep system.  I highly recommend this if you can afford it.

[BigMojo]

Of course, I also see that you're in Ft. Lauderdale.  I don't imagine you need the gear to keep warm anywhere near as often as we would.

But, that only makes sense.  Every team has to adapt to their own environment.

Exactly...I'd never sleep in a hammock below about 40deg...which it almost never gets down here. I'm originally from Wisconsin, so, I'm no stranger to the cold, but it is funny to watch hats and gloves and Gore-text parkas come out when it dips below 50....

[Stonewall]

Real quick, just to clarify something (got a PM from a buddy), the picture of me above is from 1994 when we wore embroidered "CAP" cutouts on the left collar of the BDUs.  That is not a jacked up 1st Lt bar.

Here is a closer, but blurrier, image.

[_]

Give me two trees and I can be ready to sleep in 10min. MAX. Has a rainfly that drapes over and stakes out.

Yeah, but what about the rest of your team? They all going to be ready for lights out in 10 min?  I have a 1-man bikers tent I use.  It sets up in 60 seconds.  It is rare indeed that I get to just crash after setting up my tent.

My experience with cadets is that you are lucky to get a camp setup in under an hour.
We have a SAREX this Friday where everyone is camping.  I will get to see how fast our team gets setup. 

Well, let's see.  The standard for setting up a shelter is under 30 minutes.  And onto that getting your gear inside and your sleeping bag and pad laid out.  Plus, extra time for some item that a person can't seem to find.  Extra time for cadets being cadets (and some seniors for that matter).

I don't think an hour is enough time.

Oh yeah, I forgot the time required to fire up the generator for my portable TV.

Of course, if we can get to a nearby hotel, I can be set up in about 5 minutes.

I'm waiting for the cadet that brings the 10 person tent to house him and his buddies but ends up forgetting a tent pole and they spend the entire night trying to jerry rig something before finding the other pole in the bottom of the stuff sack. 

Looking at the photo of the bivouac site there is a nice little island in the middle of the river.  I may try to set up camp there.   Ought to be nice and quite out there.

As for a hotel room, those are for the aircrew going out there not us ground people.  I offered to loan a tent to any aircrew person but there were no takers.

[DNall]

I don't "camp." I'm in the Army. They force me to stay out in the woods for a few days a couple times a year. No showers, shelter is what I carry several miles in on my back.

24hr gear is an LBV. That's the vest/harness system you wear either all the time or at least whenever you get out the car. It doesn't have shelter material.

72hr gear is not for pulling out of the van & establishing a camp site next to it. It's for putting on your back & walking far enough away that you can't get back before dark. Really, it's made for moving on foot 36hrs into the woods & then 36hrs back unless resupplied (by helo) so you can continue on indefinitely. You need to be able to walk several miles with that stuff, not barely be able to drag it in & out of the vehicle.

With the experience of actually carrying such a load several miles on a semi-regular basis, I'll tell you I carry as absolutely little as humanly possible. I do the poncho half shelter like stonewall showed above, and got my 4-piece sleep system that'll keep me dry & warm down to at least zero. Plus a ground tarp, poncho liner, and sleeping pad. Comes with a nice big bug net too. I got no need for anything else, and no desire to carry the weight.

In the real world, I'm going to sleep in an FBO/base or out in my truck. If that's not going to work then I'm going to ask about an empty hanger, then I'm going to call in cots & GP tents from the national guard. I don't need any kind of tent. What I need is the above gear for emergency shelter when I get caught away from civilization on foot and can't get safely back in the dark.

[Stonewall]

^^^Never under estimate the Army Guard.  One time, I threw my Eureka tent in my ruck sack during drill weekend "just in case" and was pretty happy when we were in an "admin" bivouac.  When everyone else was in their hooch I popped my tent up in 3 minutes and stayed dry the whole night.

These days, some high quality tents will weigh in at less than 3 lbs.  That's 3 lbs I'd be willing to hump on my back to add some creature comforts during inclimate weather.

[BigMojo]

My Hammock, with Fly and Bug Net weighs in at 2.6lbs, and in a compression sack is 15" long tube, 8" in diameter...always have room for that, and comfort-wise sure beats the ground.

[DNall]

^^^Never under estimate the Army Guard.  One time, I threw my Eureka tent in my ruck sack during drill weekend "just in case" and was pretty happy when we were in an "admin" bivouac.  When everyone else was in their hooch I popped my tent up in 3 minutes and stayed dry the whole night.

These days, some high quality tents will weigh in at less than 3 lbs.  That's 3 lbs I'd be willing to hump on my back to add some creature comforts during inclimate weather.

Granted, but I use my guard gear for OCS & CAP. Not worth digging the CAP stuff out after the last move. I don't have a say in the OCS packing list, so have to go with it.

Far as creature comforts... if I were camping that'd be one thing. But emergency shelter, I'm looking to collapse from exhaustion & be generally protected from the enviro till I wake up & move out again. That's very different from what I want out of a base camp. Like I said, for a base camp I'm calling in resources if there isn't infrastructure in place. I give due credit to being able to do that faster than the classic hooch, but I like the adaptability of the hooch setup too.

[JesusFreak]

Here in Las Vegas, the closest thing we have to trees is Mount Charleston, barely But I really doubt we would get a mission to go there, unless it's a SAR. Either than that, we have deserts, mountains, and lots of cacti. A tent would really help if there is anyone who lives in the desert, unless you want to take your chances by setting up your shelter near a cactus.

[flyerthom]

Here in Las Vegas, the closest thing we have to trees is Mount Charleston, barely But I really doubt we would get a mission to go there, unless it's a SAR. Either than that, we have deserts, mountains, and lots of cacti. A tent would really help if there is anyone who lives in the desert, unless you want to take your chances by setting up your shelter near a cactus.

Don't forget, we could, and have been called to Lake Tahoe and Ely. Elko and Winnnemcua are rather snowy in January. Also a call for assist in Northern AZ is always a distinct possibility. Flagstaff and East get a might bit cold in the winter.