Lights and Sirens

[hatentx]

Old thread I know, but here is something funny for Christmas!

...saw this and thought I'd share another interesting picture

CAP car with "siren and lights"

Thought you might want a laugh...

Warning, these people might still be out there...

/r

What a waste of money... I mean really how much did it cost to put all of that crap in there?  That could have gone to such a better place like new uniforms or new UDF equipment or something you know. 

[Stonewall]

What a waste of money... I mean really how much did it cost to put all of that crap in there?  That could have gone to such a better place like new uniforms or new UDF equipment or something you know. 

That was done with personal money I'm sure.  A cadet or young senior member with their own money.  I'm fairly confident that CAP money wouldn't have funded something like that.

The bottom line I wish I could convey is that responding to an emergency as an emergency vehicle, is not as easy as throwing lights on your POV.  Not that it's a tough course, but 40 hour EVOC training is required by every agency I'm familiar with to utilize lights & sirens, and then there are protocols and agency policies to follow.  There is this thing called Due Regard.  If it is not exercised, you will be held liable if when you get in an accident while driving code three (with lights and sirens).

Not only training, but insurance.  Are you insured to operate with lights and sirens?  Does insurance have guidelines for amber lights?

It takes practice and familiarity with the environment in which you operate "code 3".  As a Police Fielt Training Officer, I saw every recruit get tunnel vision an I'd have to quickly remind them to breathe, open their eyes and talk their way through the process of responding to the call at hand.  I have personally seen a cop fly through a red light, even after training, without checking for other traffic.  Luckily, and I'm talk "thank God", no one else was coming.  He says he doesn't remember going through that intersection.

So here's the deal.  Bad things happen to veteran EMS and Law Enforcement professionals every day while they're responding to calls for service.  Could you imagine a CAP volunteer with very limited experience, no training and full blown tunnel vision to shut off an ELT?  As a volunteer firefighter that wore "DRIVER" on my helmet and then as a cop and FTO, responding to calls or even having emergency lights on CAP and member owned vehicles is nothing I'm willing to advocate.

Amber flasher for ID purposes, fine.   But the minute you spend more than what it costs to throw a magnetic roof-mounted strobe on your car, you're out of line.

[hatentx]

naw I get it being personal money but if they are willing to spend it on lights for their car for CAP the it could as easly be spent on something worth while

[Slim]

The bottom line I wish I could convey is that responding to an emergency as an emergency vehicle, is not as easy as throwing lights on your POV.  Not that it's a tough course, but 40 hour EVOC training is required by every agency I'm familiar with to utilize lights & sirens, and then there are protocols and agency policies to follow.  There is this thing called Due Regard.  If it is not exercised, you will be held liable if when you get in an accident while driving code three (with lights and sirens).

Not only training, but insurance.  Are you insured to operate with lights and sirens?  Does insurance have guidelines for amber lights?

It takes practice and familiarity with the environment in which you operate "code 3".  As a Police Fielt Training Officer, I saw every recruit get tunnel vision an I'd have to quickly remind them to breathe, open their eyes and talk their way through the process of responding to the call at hand.  I have personally seen a cop fly through a red light, even after training, without checking for other traffic.  Luckily, and I'm talk "thank God", no one else was coming.  He says he doesn't remember going through that intersection.

So here's the deal.  Bad things happen to veteran EMS and Law Enforcement professionals every day while they're responding to calls for service.  Could you imagine a CAP volunteer with very limited experience, no training and full blown tunnel vision to shut off an ELT?  As a volunteer firefighter that wore "DRIVER" on my helmet and then as a cop and FTO, responding to calls or even having emergency lights on CAP and member owned vehicles is nothing I'm willing to advocate.

Amber flasher for ID purposes, fine.   But the minute you spend more than what it costs to throw a magnetic roof-mounted strobe on your car, you're out of line.

+1

And I've made a living doing it for going on 19 years.

[MikeD]

OMG!!!...HAHAHAHA!....That's terrible!......You're right! Gump was smarter!

   As for lights and sirens, I think the amber lights do just fine (for visibility purposes only). There's no need for sirens whatsoever (loudspeakers (not sirens) in certain situations might be usefull though).
   I think if you're focusing on response time from CAP, then one should focus on proceedures and work on cutting down the time in which CAP is alerted. It's not fair to "Harp" on CAP getting to a scene 6 hours after an incident, when it took everyone 4 or 5 hours to even make CAP aware of it.

I almost think we should get something on the first SARSAT hit.  Not a real alerting but a "Hey, do you know where your gear is?  And don't go out to the bar yet" call.  Then again I might change my mind after getting about 20 of those a day....  I don't really know what else we collectivly could do to improve response times.

Personally, I want to (and given that work and the squadron are on base, and home's 45 minutes away should) have my gear on me all the time.  Other then that I really don't know.  Ideas?

[JayT]

OMG!!!...HAHAHAHA!....That's terrible!......You're right! Gump was smarter!

   As for lights and sirens, I think the amber lights do just fine (for visibility purposes only). There's no need for sirens whatsoever (loudspeakers (not sirens) in certain situations might be usefull though).
   I think if you're focusing on response time from CAP, then one should focus on proceedures and work on cutting down the time in which CAP is alerted. It's not fair to "Harp" on CAP getting to a scene 6 hours after an incident, when it took everyone 4 or 5 hours to even make CAP aware of it.

I almost think we should get something on the first SARSAT hit.  Not a real alerting but a "Hey, do you know where your gear is?  And don't go out to the bar yet" call.  Then again I might change my mind after getting about 20 of those a day....  I don't really know what else we collectivly could do to improve response times.

Personally, I want to (and given that work and the squadron are on base, and home's 45 minutes away should) have my gear on me all the time.  Other then that I really don't know.  Ideas?

Don't take this negatively, but why exactly do you feel the need to radically improve your response time? Are you getting left behind?

[MikeD]

Don't take this negatively, but why exactly do you feel the need to radically improve your response time? Are you getting left behind?

Just once

[JayT]

Out of how many missions?

[MikeD]

Uhh, 2.  So you can look at it as a pretty poor ratio, I like to think of it as "missing one for a stupid reason isn't that bad "

[Rob Sherlin]

  OK, it takes you time to get your gear to be ready for a mission ( I'm sure you can make room in your vehicle for the basics...can't you?). But, that wasn't even the purpose of the comment I've made......The basis of the comment was, how much time has passed even before CAP was informed of the situation.
  If something happens, and it takes an hour before someone reports it, then the authorities take an hour to bring it to the next level, then they take an hour trying to figure out what to do, you're allready looking at 3 hours past the incident and CAP might not have even been thought of yet.
  Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ). 

[SJFedor]

Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ). 

That would be the CAP equivilant of an EMS agency jumping a call.

We DO NOT self activate, ever. Things have a process that they need to go through that are up in the "echelons above reality". Us self activating jeopardizes our FECA/FTCA status, as well as any credibility we may have with other agencies.

[Timbo]

Wow.....diggin' one up from 2007.  Someone tell Doc Brown his time traveling DeLorean got stolen......   

[Rob Sherlin]

See.......told ya'

How bout not representing CAP.........Just doing it as a caring individual..........The whole standards on which CAP started!

[Eclipse]

  Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP until later ). 

I can almost guarantee if you do that you would be subject to disciplinary action up to, and including, membership termination.

You would also be subject to arrest by local authorities as you would have absolutely no authorization to be on scene.

Not to mention the "wannabe" label that will be stuck to every CAP member in that area thanks to the "positive" contacts.

Like every response organization, we have rules and policies, they protect us and our customers.  Like the best fireman, we come when called, and if not called, prepare for the next time.

Want to be called more?  Look around at the agencies that are called up more for local situation - PD / FD Auxiliaries, Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc.

You want to wander on a DR scene as a "caring individual"? Knock yourself out, but leave every piece of gear, clothing, and ID that could identify your connection with CAP, and don't even hint at your affiliation - that way you will still be subject to arrest, but at least you can stay a member until you're actually convicted.

[Rob Sherlin]

  I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
  Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"

You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"

[Eclipse]

  I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
  Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"

You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"

You don't "show up".

You don't "tell them" anything.

You don't get involved unless you are called up.

Period.

[MikeD]

  OK, it takes you time to get your gear to be ready for a mission ( I'm sure you can make room in your vehicle for the basics...can't you?). But, that wasn't even the purpose of the comment I've made......The basis of the comment was, how much time has passed even before CAP was informed of the situation.
  If something happens, and it takes an hour before someone reports it, then the authorities take an hour to bring it to the next level, then they take an hour trying to figure out what to do, you're allready looking at 3 hours past the incident and CAP might not have even been thought of yet.
  Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ). 

What I was trying to say made sense last night...  I kinda forgot what my point was so I'll shut up and hide in the corner now.

[wingnut55]

I found this at on the State of Michigan web Site.

Are volunteer firemen insured while traveling to and from a call in their personal vehicles?

A volunteer fireman that is involved in an automobile accident while responding to or returning from a call must first look to his or her personal auto insurance for coverage. The Pool will provide coverage for volunteers, but only excess of their personal insurance.

The Named Insured (city, village, etc.) always will be covered by the Pool on a primary basis if named in a suit for damages resulting from an auto accident involving a volunteer firefighter.


Gads ZOOTS: I am finding similar statement made in every state that I looked at, Delaware for example pays $500.00 / month if disabled on a fire.

Oh yes support your government, your better off being a banker or corrupt Loan officer.

On paper we (CAP)  have Platinum coverage

[JayT]

  I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
  Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"

You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"

Wrong wrong, wrong, wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong.

You just said two different things about showing up on a scene uninvited.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but you must have no real experience in the emergency field. That's exactly what happens.

Do I buff calls? No.

Do I stop if I see a car accident on the side of the road? Yes.

Do I spot if I see an accident on the side of the road, or if we get flagged down? Yup, have to.

However, if I show up to a scene in my EMT uniform off duty, I'm subjecting myself to a lot of problems.

If you wanna show up to look for little Becky who got lost in the woods, that's fine.

However, if you wanna play CAP, you have to play by the rules. That inculdes not being able to self activate.

[Rob Sherlin]

  So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.

  I'm stopped and asked (or call when I've heard) about a reported person missing in the woods  around here. But, I don't dare mention that I'm in CAP, and been trained in SAR. God forbid I ask if there's anything I can do to help.....RIGHT?