Lights and Sirens

[SARPilotNY]

Stonewall-

if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.

Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?

Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.

Since you are from FL WG, what percentage of your members do what percent of the missions.  In CA, a dozen seem to do almost all the missions.  How about you guys?

[Stonewall]

I have no clue who does what.  I'm rather inactive right now, but at my squadron there are at least 10 or more people who respond almost on a daily basis.  Our squadron has more missions than most wings or regions, even.

I'm fully qualified for everything on the ground to include EMT.  But just moving down here last year, having a baby, and working a rotating shift as a police officer, I just don't have the time to volunteer right now.  Plus, I don't much care for cadets' attitude these days. 

[SARPilotNY]

I have no clue who does what.  I'm rather inactive right now, but at my squadron there are at least 10 or more people who respond almost on a daily basis.  Our squadron has more missions than most wings or regions, even.

I'm fully qualified for everything on the ground to include EMT.  But just moving down here last year, having a baby, and working a rotating shift as a police officer, I just don't have the time to volunteer right now.  Plus, I don't much care for cadets' attitude these days. 

Undertsand...won't ask about cadets...good luck on the new job.

[flyerthom]

The lights and sirens bit as it relates to CAP use has already been discussed a bit in this thread.

A quick summary of my take on the cons against lights and sirens for CAP vehicles:

• Adds a lot of liability to CAP, Inc. and will increase CAP's vehicle insurance rates substantially
• CAP van drivers do not have emergency vehicle driving education necessary to understand how to properly operate such a vehicle
• CAP Regulations (specifically CAPR 77-1) prohibits CAP vehicles from having and using sirens of any form and also prohibits lights of any color other than clear and/or amber.  Even then, if your state doesn't allow you to have clear or amber lights, CAP says you better not even do that.
• Laws vary from state and state and may not even allow agencies like CAP to operate as emergency responders to begin with
• But the most effective argument, I think, is that it's not needed.  CAP Ground Teams are not first responders.  We do not provide Emergency Medical care, we do not provide protection, law enforcement, or other first responder services.  ELTs are not so urgent to shut off that we should risk the lives of our members and members of the public to get there a few minutes sooner.  In addition, CAP is not set up for rapid response anyways; it generally takes us an hour or two to mobilize an aircrew or ground team.

In my opinion, it's just not a wise idea.  I think amber lightbars and maybe directional arrow sticks in the rear are nice additions to CAP vans for visiblity purposes when stationary.  When parked along side a road, around a blind curve or over a blind hill, or in an otherwise potentially dangerous spot, it's nice to have that added visibility. 

In addition, a PA horn (not a siren) could be a useful addition to CAP vans for some situations.  Examples may be CAP volunteering for crowd control at large events, or trying to attract the attention of a lost hiker in the woods, etc.  That would have useful applications.

I just don't see any benefit to CAP that outweights the list of detractions to warrant any type of warning device while en route, regardless of the mission type.  If it's that urgent of a call, be assured legitimate first responders will also be answering the call.

The average time time saved with the use of audible and visual warning devices is 43.5 secs. (1)

1. Hunt, R C MD FACEP;  Brown, L H EMT-P. Is Ambulance Transport Time with Red Lights and Sirens  Faster than Without.  Annuals of Emergency Medicine April 1995.
http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm


The risk versus benefit isn't there.

[SarDragon]

Stonewall-

if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.

Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?

Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.

Since you are from FL WG, what percentage of your members do what percent of the missions.  In CA, a dozen seem to do almost all the missions.  How about you guys?

That CA figure is way off. It's probably closer to three dozen, at a minimum. Some folks might only get out a couple of times a year, depending on location. I'm not going to go through all the traffic from the last year, but that seems like a better figure.

[floridacyclist]

The average time time saved with the use of audible and visual warning devices is 43.5 secs. (1)

1. Hunt, R C MD FACEP;  Brown, L H EMT-P. Is Ambulance Transport Time with Red Lights and Sirens  Faster than Without.  Annuals of Emergency Medicine April 1995.
http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm


The risk versus benefit isn't there.

When I was on the VFD, I was often asked to help train new members. My advice to them was "When you get a call, move quickly but not in a rush. Walk around the truck once, making sure that all doors are closed, tires aren't flat etc. Drive like a sane person to the scene, especially if you're responding in your POV; always obey the speed limit. When responding on a medical, be sure to turn your siren off before you get close to the house; a patient doesn't need the excitement, especially if they're having cardiac issues. Avoid getting jacked up on adrenaline so that you can be the calming influence in what can often be a chaotic situation; the few seconds you use will be more than made up for with a better and smoother response."

I see no reason why even if we are in an urgent situation, we shouldn't treat it the same way. If it is a true life-threatening medical emergency, the patients will probably be dead anyway by the time we get notified, locate, and get to the scene. Those extra few seconds in responding sanely will not kill anyone, but they will A) Lessen the chances of our people being involved in accidents. B) Keep us from looking like a bunch of Grade-A USDA-certified whackers and C) Ensure that when we do get there, we aren't so hyped up that we do or say stupid things.

Yellow lights or strobes are great for visibility, but lose the idea that we're on an emergency-response mission and just get the job done.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The lights are good if we have to park near a right of way, and for use on the flight line.  That's it.

[SARPilotNY]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.

Duh  Yes I am in CAP...and I know CAP has SQTRs for specialties, form 5's and 91's, STAN/EVAL etc.   Those are minimum standards, just like BLS and Red Cross first aid.  CAP minimums are the levels that most of our members achieve.  Most MRA (that's Mountain Rescue Association) and other organized and sponsored teams (IE. those that are recognized teams utilized on a regular basis by local, county, state and federal government) have minimus that far exceed CAP standards.  Every team that I have been involved with  (except CAP)required EMT and recognized and followed other national search and rescue standards.  CAP standards are typically well below our peers, we have no fitness or age standards.  Weekly meetings, call outs, weekend training was the norm as with most teams.  Thousands of dollars in personal equipment and so on.  Now ask a average CAP member that wants to get involved in SAR and he would refuse to do any of that training.  Professional???  As far as picking who will rescue or recover me... local or state laws and MOU's will dictate that and as in many areas it will exclude CAP...if you don't know why, let me know.
Now I really question your loyalty.  As a medical professional and rescuer you have VIOLATED a fundamental rule not to discriminate against ANYONE!  I have on numerous incidents risked my life saving drunks, druggies, jumpers and just plain idiots that I would otherwise  have cared less about.  I put any biases aside,  to respond to the operation that I was tasked to do and I accepted when I signed up for the job or the mission.  It is a real shame to know there are people like you that would turn your back on another rescuer or victim.  Military, just as with public safety officers, work as a team and must have the knowledge that if anything goes wrong that your team will without question come to your aid.  I hope your "team" knows where you stand.

[SARPilotNY]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

Thanks SARGUY, I hope you will be around if I crash.  What state are you in, maybe I will fly only in that state.  When I fly for XXX, we have APRS in all our aircraft and a preplan in the event any of our aircraft go missing.  Our aircraft are unable to carry any extra "safety" supplies, we are at gross for a standard day at any elevation.  Full tank, Fargo tanks, FLIR, Nightsun, microwave downlink, 4 FM radios, DF, wire cutters,  EMS w/ALS and they did the following:
Removed the nice, plush seats and replaced them with mesh seats and put a maximum crewmember weight of 170 pounds in shorts.  They allow 20 pounds for boots, flightsuit, sam browne gear, HT and PLB.  They make each of us carry a PLB.  Why?  That is what will find us!  Who will find us?  I doubt it will be CAP.  We monitor 121.5, 243. and 406.025, 028 and 031 at  ALL times.  My idea, it is now required by SOP.  I can't till you the number of times I have df'ed an ELT to an airport where a CAP flight crew was at the airport having just landed and had no idea there was an ELT going.  Bad PR and how to you think my crew feels about CAP after seeing that?  Several times I have found an ELT going off in a CAP aircraft, once in flight.  I keep my mouth shut because when I did say something to their DOS, his response was just that, we are just "volunteers"
Most agencies would give the crew time on the beach.  We are just now switching out to dual turbine helos for all beats over 4,000', just for the ability to carry all the extra weight for our various missions.  Maybe than we will get a/c and padded seats.  BTW, our crews in fixed wing don't carry parachutes but are also required to carry PLBs.  You know we are suppose to monitor 121.5 all the time, the look was priceless when our helicopter flew up to the CAPF and tried to tell them to switch to 121.5...no luck.  I almost had to scramble the F-16s to get him to land, they just kept waiving "hi".  Just volunteers...but good stories.

[Becks]

Don't...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS loo... and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training..

Duh  Yes I am in CAP..

Pretty positive they were talking to "sarguy" and not you there slick, ease off the throttle.

Edit: Sized down some quotes for Mike

[SARPilotNY]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.

Duh  Yes I am in CAP...and I know CAP has SQTRs for specialties, form 5's and 91's, STAN/EVAL etc.   Those are minimum standards, just like BLS and Red Cross first aid.  CAP minimums are the levels that most of our members achieve.  Most MRA (that's Mountain Rescue Association) and other organized and sponsored teams (IE. those that are recognized teams utilized on a regular basis by local, county, state and federal government) have minimus that far exceed CAP standards.  Every team that I have been involved with  (except CAP)required EMT and recognized and followed other national search and rescue standards.  CAP standards are typically well below our peers, we have no fitness or age standards.  Weekly meetings, call outs, weekend training was the norm as with most teams.  Thousands of dollars in personal equipment and so on.  Now ask a average CAP member that wants to get involved in SAR and he would refuse to do any of that training.  Professional???  As far as picking who will rescue or recover me... local or state laws and MOU's will dictate that and as in many areas it will exclude CAP...if you don't know why, let me know.
Now I really question your loyalty.  As a medical professional and rescuer you have VIOLATED a fundamental rule not to discriminate against ANYONE!  I have on numerous incidents risked my life saving drunks, druggies, jumpers and just plain idiots that I would otherwise  have cared less about.  I put any biases aside,  to respond to the operation that I was tasked to do and I accepted when I signed up for the job or the mission.  It is a real shame to know there are people like you that would turn your back on another rescuer or victim.  Military, just as with public safety officers, work as a team and must have the knowledge that if anything goes wrong that your team will without question come to your aid.  I hope your "team" knows where you stand.

Pretty positive they were talking to "sarguy" and not you there slick, ease off the throttle.

The only way to shut down a turbine is to kill the fuel!
(or never kick a man when he is down )

[MIKE]

Ok guys the quote chaining is getting very annoying.  Stop abusing the Reply with quote.

[SARPilotNY]

what  are you talking about?   

[JohnKachenmeister]

what  are you talking about?   

This.

[SARMedTech]

SARPilotNY-

You may question my loyalty all you like. I said just let us know if you dont want us to come look for you as a statement of sarcasm because you said you would rather have other, more qualified teams than CAP (the one you chose to be a member of) come look for you.

What you may not do is question my professionalism. Being an EMT is a huge part of what I am for CAP, regardless of restricting regs, etc. Its the way I serve. I help to keep my team members healthy. I put bandaides on cuts and mole skin on blisters and perform more advanced first aide when it is called for. So far, my friend, I have yet to hear you offer one genuine suggestion. Your posts are full of the kind of vitriol that I have so far only heard from CAP members who have been around for 30 years, talked a big game but had neither the committment or capacity to carry it through. I have worked with SAR teams in just about every climate there is except the arctic. Ive helped to heal those hurt in air crashes and lost when they wandered from their campsite on a holiday weekend. As a first responder, I helped carry bodies away from ground zero and as an EMT I waded through raw sewage to deliver medical care in New Orleans. I am currently working on my masters degree to be able to start to help sort out this necessarily new era of emergency services we live in. In one post you are a physician, in one you deliver pizzas. Neither of these matters because what you clearly are is a malcontent and a rabble rouser. I refuse to be baited by you any further and think that as a CAP member you should be sickened not just at those of us who have responded to you by sinking to your level, but also by yourself...you, who plays to the lowest common demoninator among us. You, who has nothing but criticism and not so much as a molecule of it constructive. Yes. you may question my loyalty if you wish. But dont you ever question my committment. I serve my community and my country proudly, Sir. I care for people every day that you wouldnt cross the street to spit on. I just came home from a 24 hours shift where I lost 3 patients. But the 36 that lived are better off because me and people like me were there to tend to them when they called. So dont you ever question me, sir, or anyone of the other, dedicated and devoted CAP members of this forum. Perhaps you are a frustrated old pilot, whose big mouth and lack of action never got him very far in CAP. But dont you go insulting these other fine men and women who would lay down their lives for their fellow citizens, sir. You have not earned that right and judging by the way you behave, you never will.

[SARPilotNY]

Just to sent the record straight...
I never said I deliver Pizza, that was someone else.
I said I was just an under paid doctor.

As to my qualifications,  I am not a burned out,  has been.  I am current and active in both my CAP life and professional life.  I was part of a strike team that responded to 9-11 but never made it to the big dig and to Katrina, and only supported it from 300 miles away.  In CAP, I bet ( and I will)  that I have responded in numbers and percentages to more missions than 99 % of our members, more finds, saves, ELTs, and that is just CAP, not my other job.  Again, enough said.  The issue here is what drives our folks to do, or not to do with lights and sirens.  The cadet from Colorado, and, btw, his mother is also in CAP, is an example of what is wrong here.  Throw lights and sirens on the cars and we get more and the wrong kind of members.  Guns?  More members!  NASCAR...well that didn't work, and thank god!  It's not about merit badges...or numbers, or is it?  SAR MED TECH....  I work with you guys all the time, maybe I even worked along side you and you would not have even noticed.  And I mean that.  I don't wear my awards on my uniform because that is not what drives me.  When I see the work product of the volunteer EMS & FD folks, I am always amazed.  Some on a shoe string budget, 6 hours a week of training and round the clock watches.  Than there are CAP volunteers.  We have some great folks and than ...well again, you know.  As before...quality, not quantity. 
SAR MED TECH...you have a great heart in the right place...if you ran as many calls as you said the other shift...lay off the caffeine and get some sleep...and keep up the good work.  P.S. as an intern, we had to do 600 hours on the streets, I learned in a busy house that that would kill you over time.  Some handle it, most don't.  I was lucky,  I had a choice to work in a low volume environment but still had opportunities to keep my skills up.  I have seen folks burn out...not a pretty site, remember, seniority has it's privileges.

[SARMedTech]

I work those kinds of shifts essentially 52 weeks a year, which alot of people in my profession do.

As far as the Colorado kids with their lights and sirens, that wasnt a CAP vehicle, which is key here. You cant really apply what some stray cadets have chosen to do to what is the case with the whole of CAP. That being said, we dont do anything that needs lights and sirens. Should we ever add an EMS component, then its a whole different story.

As for guns-

While that was sort of jokingly discussed here recently, I dont think there need be any concern that you will see CAP officers with side arms anytime soon.

Re lights and sirens: I have taken two emergency vehicle operators courses totaling something like 100 hours. The first was just driving and being able to control a vehicle that size (between 3 and 6 ton depending on the type of ambulance) and the other was code 3 driving and let me say that the course makes a huge difference. First, it imparts a confidence in driving that size of a vehicle at speeds of 75-80 miles an hour and I can definately tell when someone hasnt had any training. Their more hesitant, it takes them longer to make a decision and when the lights and sirens do come on, forget it...Ive been the driver and the right hand seat in high speed situations and quite frankly when someone doesnt have formal training, you can feel it and it even becomes harder to navigate for them because they panic and dont take directions as well. 

CAP just doesnt need lights and sirens. Thats all there is to it.

[Pumbaa]

Nope, no lights n sirens.. Only I can have the gun!

Actually the only lights I would accept would be the flashers AFTER the vehicle is at the scene and is PARKED.  This only helps with visibility and safety.

THink about it.  How much time is actually saved running hot?  Let's see I get a call while at work.  I run hot.. Let's see 10 miles?  At 60 MPH I get there in 10 minutes.  At 80MPH I get there in what 8 minutes?  The risk is too high for 2 minutes.

Also too, generally for the type of things we would be called out on, it'll be hurry up and wait.  You get there and then what?

We don't handle Emergencies like car accidents, etc.. so again o need for the hot run.

[SarDragon]

Nope, no lights n sirens.. Only I can have the gun!

Actually the only lights I would accept would be the flashers AFTER the vehicle is at the scene and is PARKED.  This only helps with visibility and safety.

THink about it.  How much time is actually saved running hot?  Let's see I get a call while at work.  I run hot.. Let's see 10 miles?  At 60 MPH I get there in 10 minutes.  At 80MPH I get there in what 12 minutes?  The risk is too high for 2 minutes.

Also too, generally for the type of things we would be called out on, it'll be hurry up and wait.  You get there and then what?

We don't handle Emergencies like car accidents, etc.. so again o need for the hot run.

The figures need a little work. 60 mph = 1 mile/min; 10 mi takes 10 min. 80 mph = 1 mi/.75 min; 10 mi takes 7.5 min.

The idea, however is exactly right.

[SARPilotNY]

As far as the Colorado cadet goes...like in many wings, member owned vehicles are the norm on missions...even having them and or using them can drag CAP into the mud.  I am not against warning lights in general but once you let the cat out, it seems it becomes a competion for who has the most bling bling.  I have seen a $3000 LED full length bar, corner strobes, grill and deck lights on a member owned vehicle that didn't even have a 40 watt VHF radio or df.  What are his priorities and who will top him?  These are the guys that show up at the air shows but not for the missions...go figure!  Sar Med...  Should these be considered early warning signs or risk factors?