Lights and Sirens

[SARMedTech]

I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft.  We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works.  We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles.  Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams?  Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off.  An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs.  They would never even need to land!  We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF.  I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional. 

Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt.  Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking. 

We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.

[SARPilotNY]

I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft.  We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works.  We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles.  Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams?  Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off.  An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs.  They would never even need to land!  We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF.  I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional. 

Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt.  Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking. 

We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.

A key point is in the beginning, when we respond we don't know if it is a crash or not, injuries or not, a flase alarm or not.  The fire departments run with lights and siren to fire alarms and almost all of those are false.  We usually would not be responding to a known "located" crash.

[RiverAux]

The delay in activating CAP is almost always the responsibility of the AFRCC.  They're the ones that wait for many hours before getting us involved.   Once we're involved we get going and get the job done. 

But, we are first responders.  We're not the only ones out there, but for some SAR missions we are.  However, lights aren't necessary for the type of first-response missions we do. 

[SARMedTech]

I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft.  We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works.  We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles.  Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams?  Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off.  An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs.  They would never even need to land!  We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF.  I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional. 

Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt.  Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking. 

We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.

A key point is in the beginning, when we respond we don't know if it is a crash or not, injuries or not, a flase alarm or not.  The fire departments run with lights and siren to fire alarms and almost all of those are false.  We usually would not be responding to a known "located" crash.

Could you quote your source that "most" fire alarms are false. As someone who often responds with fire fighters, a good number of fires are called in and not dispatched by alarm.

[SARPilotNY]

Call you local fire department and police department.  The stats are much like ELTs.  Many departments will no longer allow direct reporting of alarms to a 911 point of dispatch, instead they require all alarms go through a 3rd party alarm company to be verified prior to dispatch.  This cut down the volume of false alarms by not the percentage by much.  The number of actual burglar alarms that were related to an actual break in (vs employee accidental activation, housekeeper etc.) in our area is 97% false, fire alarms actually related to a fire in a dwelling where the occupant was unable to extinguish the fire (where there was a fire) or caused by burnt food, closed flue from a fireplace, steam from a shower, spider in a sensor etc. 94% false, add waterflow (sprinkler) alarms, it takes the false alarm average up to 98% false.
Now ELTs are 96% false (1 in 25 real) police and fire respond quickly, why shouldn't we?
The AFRCC in fact does screen most ELTs by waiting for two passes or calling the local FBO first.  If the didn't, are false alarm rate would be higher too.

[sarguy]

Based on the information in the post, I think I will talk to my Congressman about changing the method in which Fire Departments and Police are dispatched.  I think it should go something like this (modeled after the "CAP Designated Emergency Level Yellow"

Someone calls in to the fire department stating that an alarm is going off at 5th and Maple.  Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 1, "Hey can you take it..."  "No sorry, we're too tired", Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 2, "Hey can you take it..." "Nope past my duty day", Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 3, "Hey can you take it..." Sure..  Chief calls station 1 "Are you available.." "No just got back from one..." Chief calls station 2, "Can you go out" "Yeah, but give us about an hour, we're sitting down for dinner... "OK" chief says...  Engine arrives on scene to smoldering ash...  "Where's the fire?"

[SARMedTech]

Call you local fire department and police department.  The stats are much like ELTs.  Many departments will no longer allow direct reporting of alarms to a 911 point of dispatch, instead they require all alarms go through a 3rd party alarm company to be verified prior to dispatch.  This cut down the volume of false alarms by not the percentage by much.  The number of actual burglar alarms that were related to an actual break in (vs employee accidental activation, housekeeper etc.) in our area is 97% false, fire alarms actually related to a fire in a dwelling where the occupant was unable to extinguish the fire (where there was a fire) or caused by burnt food, closed flue from a fireplace, steam from a shower, spider in a sensor etc. 94% false, add waterflow (sprinkler) alarms, it takes the false alarm average up to 98% false.
Now ELTs are 96% false (1 in 25 real) police and fire respond quickly, why shouldn't we?
The AFRCC in fact does screen most ELTs by waiting for two passes or calling the local FBO first.  If the didn't, are false alarm rate would be higher too.

Again, what I asked for was a citation for those numbers, because they still seem high to me and as for fire alarms, do not square with my experience. I called the Chief this morning of one of the fire departments that I do EMS with. He said that in our town of less than 50,000 people, so far the month of July, only four days old so far, has seen 10 requests for assistance by the county 911 dispatch center after a citizen call or the receipt of an alarm signal or contact by a 3rd party monitoring center for said alarms. He reported to me that of those ten calls ranging from fires in residences, to automobiles to dumpsters to a recent industrial fire, only 2 were false alarms, bringing the percentage to 20 for false alarms and not 98. Fires which can be managed by the person who calls do NOT classify as false alarms. Fire departments would be reckless to tell people do not call us if you think you can fight a fire with a fire extinguisher. A home fire doubles in size for every minute it burns. But again we have gotten off track by comparing apples to oranges or in this case, ELT signals from AFRCC to fire alarms or request for service.

[SARPilotNY]

I think you missed the point I was making...I am talking about electronic fire/burglar alarms vs. alarms that the fire departments run on.  Most electronic fire alarms as well as burglar alarms are false activations.
The point is we treat ELTs as electronic distress alarms vs. a voice "MAYDAY".
We treat these as a low priority alarm...a code 50, when available, no lights or sirens vs. a code 70, immediate response, no lights or siren or a code 90, lights and sirens.  Why should we assume an ELT is just another false activation vs. a possible distress aircraft.  We have let people die because of that.  I have seen aircraft crash and go missing just off the end of a runway in an urban environment and wait till morning before we have investigated it.  That's wrong, lazy and stupid!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

[SARMedTech]

I think you missed the point I was making...I am talking about electronic fire/burglar alarms vs. alarms that the fire departments run on.  Most electronic fire alarms as well as burglar alarms are false activations.
The point is we treat ELTs as electronic distress alarms vs. a voice "MAYDAY".
We treat these as a low priority alarm...a code 50, when available, no lights or sirens vs. a code 70, immediate response, no lights or siren or a code 90, lights and sirens.  Why should we assume an ELT is just another false activation vs. a possible distress aircraft.  We have let people die because of that.  I have seen aircraft crash and go missing just off the end of a runway in an urban environment and wait till morning before we have investigated it.  That's wrong, lazy and stupid!

Which makes me think you have missed my point. "lights and sirens" generally subtract less than 2 minutes from travel time, in traffic. Without traffic of course, as in a rural setting, they really serve no purpose whatsoever. There are also cases where lights and sirens, even in a code 3 (EMS) response can cause more trouble than they are worth when balanced against the possible hazards of "running hot."

Also, if you were watching an aircraft when it "went missing" off the end of a runway, did you activate other emergency services besides CAP and if so, why not. Also, when a plane is witnessed going off the end of a run way, how missing can it be unless the runway was an aircraft carrier and the plane took water and went to the bottom. Also, lights and sirens headed toward an emergency is a very different situation than 24 hours before a response was even initiated and indeed different from your other circumstances in which a "hot response" would be warranted. Im not trying to be rude or confrontational, but you seem to keep changing the parameters, here. Our definition of emergency services vs police/fire/EMS is very different and there are cases where it is wise to wait until day light to initiate a search. I still dont understand how  a plane goes off the end of a runway and "goes missing." And you keep saying MOST, which indicates a majority, but dont say on what facts and figures you base it. At least I could site an anecdotal conversation I had with the chief of a volunteer fire department. I dare say its been awhile since you have been around volunteer fire departments. It is not at all an uncommon occurence that a volunteer fire station is not even manned and that the volunteers have to be toned out from wherever they happen to be in the fire protection district in which they  volunteer which brings them either to the station in POVs and then out on the FD trucks or directly to the scene in POVs, the latter becoming more and more common, especially in non-urban areas or smaller communities.

[SARPilotNY]

Missing off the end of a runway where the aircraft lost power and crashed without being witnessed is what I am talking about.  The aircraft is within a half mile or so of the airport an in the woods.  Many consider this an "urban" mission and we should wait till morning to investigate it since the SARSAT shows it near the airport.  The FBO can hear the signal but has no DF capabilities.  To ignore this call for help is no different that a fire department ignoring an call fr help from an electronic (fire) alarm.  The Coast Guard ignored a mayday a few years ago off of Florida, near an urban area.  Boats don't sink there...right?  They ignored it until morning when surfers found the boat and 3 dead bodies on the beach.  How much did that cost the USCG in money and reputation?  Yes planes do go missing and crash off runways in urban areas and we need to get off our butts and respond like emergency services workers are expected to do.  As for stats, I talked to our city manager, town or 50,000 in a county of 300,000, per his stats, FBI index stats and NFPA stats... they are all in the Ball park.  Our city received tens of thousand of dollars in fines for false alarms last year, and our safety center dispatches will not take "direct" alarms.  They must be screened by an alarm company first where they call the occupancy first.  This cuts down on the volume of the calls but again, not the percentage.
Last year, fire alarms (again..just the electronic smoke/heat detectors)
584
22 were unattended food/closed flues on fireplaces
2 fires, property damage less than 10,000$$
560 were accidental, mal functions
95% were deemed false,  4% deemed useful 1% deemed property saving

Burglar/armed robbery/panic
2662
6 were actual robberies  less than 1%
88 were deemed improper use of an alarm  Classified as false
34 stopped or prevented a crime/robbery/theft   1.5 %
Total false alarms  97.5

Our police department will not respond to car alarm since they would cause a huge burden on the city unless it is a LOJACK or TELETRAC or  a witnessed break in to the car.

Those are the facts, help that I know the City Manager, Police and Fire Chief too.   BTW, I was on a volunteer fire department and reserve police office and these stats are right in line with my experiences.  Just like ELTs, 96% are false, but 1 in 25 are real.  Should we take that chance?

[sarguy]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

[SARMedTech]

Don't know what big red is...or was.  As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow.  When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes.  ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours  before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond.  Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds.  Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims?  We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals?  Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us?  I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!

We do not "Scramble."

Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you.  Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.

That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable.  That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.

I carry:

Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.

I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse.  And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!"  I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals.  But wait "We're all volunteers!"  What a BS line.  Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer.  And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training.  Wow, what a concept....

God bless the USA....

Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.

[Stonewall]

A typical mission in DC wing went like this:

0100:  IC gets the call.

IC calls 2 or 3 GTLs and organize 3 to 5 person Ground Teams.

0200:  Call IC "hey, we've gathered, where do you want us".

IC tells us to go to so and so general area and try and get a DF hit.

Call the IC, "we got nuthin, boss"

IC says to go do some ramp checks at the local airports and call him back.

0500:  Call IC with "yep, found it at Manassas airport, we notified FBO, see ya at the meeting"

At what point did we need lights and sirens?

Was there even a known location to respond to?

Who has been to the 40 hour EVOC course?

What insurance covers the use of running "Code 3"?

Did parents sign a hold harmless waiver to allow their kids to ride in a CAP vehicle going "Code 3"?

I have personally seen grown adult ground team members/leaders show up to a mission with a fighting knife upside down on their LBE and strapped to their ankle.  I have seen grown adults show up with sniper badges because they said they were a sniper in the Marine Corps (the weren't).  I have seen grown adults show up with a machete strapped to their black pistol belt while wearing black leather biker gloves and their sleeves rolled up.  I have seen grown adults show up in a Saturn with CAP seals taped to the doors of their car because the car wasn't metal so the magnets wouldn't stick.  I have seen grown adults whose highest level of medical training was "Standard First Aid" but they had the Blackhawk S.T.O.M.P. pack filled with more medical gear than an ambulance.  I've seen grown adult senior members show up, on 4th of July with 100 degree temps plus humidity ready to find a "missing plane" that weigh in at 300 pounds only to end up as a heat casualty and evacuated to the hospital.  I saw a grown adult senior member who was the IC and buddy of the fat guy who let him head into the woods weighing that much knowing he was a risk, but did it anyway because they were buddies.

So, these are the people you want running code in CAP vans, or worse, in their POV Nissan Sentra?  How many accidents and injuries do we already have just driving in "admin mode"?  More than we care to talk about I'm sure.

No thank you, you can keep your lights and sirens and strap them to your plane.

[SARPilotNY]

A typical mission in DC wing went like this:

0100:  IC gets the call.

IC calls 2 or 3 GTLs and organize 3 to 5 person Ground Teams.

0200:  Call IC "hey, we've gathered, where do you want us".

IC tells us to go to so and so general area and try and get a DF hit.

Call the IC, "we got nuthin, boss"

IC says to go do some ramp checks at the local airports and call him back.

0500:  Call IC with "yep, found it at Manassas airport, we notified FBO, see ya at the meeting"

At what point did we need lights and sirens?

Was there even a known location to respond to?

Who has been to the 40 hour EVOC course?

What insurance covers the use of running "Code 3"?

Did parents sign a hold harmless waiver to allow their kids to ride in a CAP vehicle going "Code 3"?

I have personally seen grown adult ground team members/leaders show up to a mission with a fighting knife upside down on their LBE and strapped to their ankle.  I have seen grown adults show up with sniper badges because they said they were a sniper in the Marine Corps (the weren't).  I have seen grown adults show up with a machete strapped to their black pistol belt while wearing black leather biker gloves and their sleeves rolled up.  I have seen grown adults show up in a Saturn with CAP seals taped to the doors of their car because the car wasn't metal so the magnets wouldn't stick.  I have seen grown adults whose highest level of medical training was "Standard First Aid" but they had the Blackhawk S.T.O.M.P. pack filled with more medical gear than an ambulance.  I've seen grown adult senior members show up, on 4th of July with 100 degree temps plus humidity ready to find a "missing plane" that weigh in at 300 pounds only to end up as a heat casualty and evacuated to the hospital.  I saw a grown adult senior member who was the IC and buddy of the fat guy who let him head into the woods weighing that much knowing he was a risk, but did it anyway because they were buddies.

So, these are the people you want running code in CAP vans, or worse, in their POV Nissan Sentra?  How many accidents and injuries do we already have just driving in "admin mode"?  More than we care to talk about I'm sure.

No thank you, you can keep your lights and sirens and strap them to your plane.

Good job!  But I can top that, I saw a cadet with a firearm on his waist concelled!  Yes we need lights and sirens (see Colorado Wing Cadet busted)  so the troopers can pull these guys over and bust them!   BTW, I tried to mount a magnetic light bar to the belly of my plane but it wouldn't stick, so I used duct tape!

[Psicorp]

...because the one thing CAP airplanes don't have enough of is parasitic drag.

[SARMedTech]

Stonewall-

if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.

[Stonewall]

I wasn't really blasting anyone in particular.  In fact, I admit that I didn't read the entire thread, just glazed through it while trying to get my son to go to sleep in the midst of fireworks going off.  I am just very much against lights and sirens in CAP and to whom ever wants them, that was who my post was directed towards.  Right or wrong, that's how I did it.

Edit:  And I did happen to read your post where you talk about shaving less than 2 minutes off response time using lights/sirens.  So yes, I did know that you weren't advocating the use of the lights, etc...

[SARPilotNY]

Stonewall-

if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.

Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?

[Stonewall]

Stonewall-

if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.

Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?

Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.