Lights and Sirens

[JayT]

  So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.

Deal with it, or quit.

We're part of a volunteer organization. You can't just show up in a uniform to an incident and expert to pontificate about your extensive experience in wilderness SAR or whatever.

You're a civilian volunteer, I'm sorry to break that to you.

You call it thinking 'inside the box,' I call it 'effective scene management."

If you look at the World Trade Center incident, there was some problems after the first few days with volunteers showing up and freelancing.

Also, lets not forget the most important thing. The number of incidents where this happens is statstically zero.

[EMT-83]

Just stay home. Your local emergency service agencies have specific procedures that they train on, and have preplanned for incidents in the community. The last thing they need is someone getting in the way, no matter how good their intentions are.

[JayT]

Just stay home. Your local emergency service agencies have specific procedures that they train on, and have preplanned for incidents in the community. The last thing they need is someone getting in the way, no matter how good their intentions are.

Best reply ever.

[SJFedor]

  So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.

  I'm stopped and asked if I've seen a woman reported missing in the woods  around here. But, I don't dare mention that I'm in CAP, and been trained in SAR. God forbid I ask if there's anything I can do to help.....RIGHT?

Rob, I understand what you're saying here, and I understand your frustration. However, don't confuse the term "volunteer" with "people who show up to offer help".

Myself, and many others, consider CAP a form of professional volunteerism. We're not the "volunteers" you see in a hospital working a gift shop. We're volunteers in the same sense as a volunteer firefighter/EMT, where we have specialized training, and are expected to execute jobs the same way as our paid counterparts. We're a force multiplier.

If you're stopped and asked if you've seen the woman, by all means, answer the question. But telling the person asking you really isn't going to be of any use anyway, as the person doing the question asking is almost certainly not the incident commander, and wouldn't be the appropriate person to solicit our capabilities to. Any type of solicitation like that, if it's to happen at all, should be done by your Wing Director of Emergency Services, Director of Operations, or Wing Commander, and that type of solicitation is usually done PRIOR to an event, not once one has happened.

For example, no doubt that everyone heard about the small dam/levy that broke in East Tennessee, which held back dirty water from a coal plant. CAP was used to fly a few aerial imaging sorties for the state. We didn't call them and say "hi, do you need our help?" because the Wing has done the job of already making our presence and capabilities known to them beforehand. Therefore, they went through the process of requesting a mission (which really isn't that complicated once there's a State MOU in place, usually a few phone calls, less than an hour, and a mission number is issued) and we provided them with many pretty pictures.

I would highly recommend you read chapters 6 and 7 of CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions, as this will answer a lot of your questions.

Just like how a fire department doesn't roll out of station just because they see smoke, even if it's just to say "hi, we're here, need any help?", until they're dispatched by their county dispatch office, we don't go until we've been dispatched by the appropriate agency.

It's the burden of being a professional volunteer. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's how the world works.

[Rob Sherlin]

  I'm not talking about showing up in uniform. I'm talking about offering help as a trained civilian. There were some teenagers lost in the Niagara river for a whole week before they found the bodies floating offshore because they couldn't cover enough area (yeah, the officials handled that one great!!!)
 Don't even bring up 9-11, because if it wasn't for our "open door" policy, all these foreigners coming through Canada, and the aircraft schools catering to foreign students, it wouldn't have happened (those guys came through Canada, and had flight training in Florida).

[Stonewall]

October 2003 in Reston, VA.  A family 5 houses down knocks on my door asking if I've seen their elderly grandmother; she wondered off while they were at the store for about 45 minutes.  I hadn't seen her but I suggested calling the Fairfax County Police, which they did.

FCPD passively placed patrol cars at nearby intersections thinking they'd see her crossing the street.  There are 65 miles of paved trails in Reston, 90% of which are heavily wooded with creeks, streams and 3 very large lakes; all walking distance from the last known location of the elderly lady.

In front of my house was my squadron van, clearly marked with the CAP seal.  A police officer asked me if we were searching and I said no, we hadn't been called.  He looked at my like I was joking.  I had gotten on my mountain bike and began riding, but after the conversation with the cop decided to at least call the Wing CC who was one of our ICs.  He told me it was VAWG jurisdiction and they hadn't been called.  The duty lieutentant made several attempts to try and call out CAP to no avail and gave up.  I had already contacted my entire squadron and sister squadron in anticipation of being "activated".  I got a very rude call from some old hag from VAWG who demanded I stand down and stop trying to be a cowboy.  FINE!

I sent everyone home, most of them in disbelief and mad at me for not fixing the breakdown in the system.   We already had a plan to send "scout teams" to do hasty searches along the creek beds and head to the 3 lakes within a mile or so of our location (my house).  Bud again, I was ordered to stand down.  THAT WAS MY PLAN OF ACTION HAD WE NOT BEEN GIVEN A SPECIFIC TASK.

2 weeks later they found the woman dead along the bank of one of the very lakes we would have searched.  The cops sent a couple (actually 4) bicycle cops to do some hasty searches along the paved trails and got nothing.  I actually feel like we should have been sued.

Not sure how this relates to lights and sirens, but it isn't the first time we drifted on a topic.

[flyerthom]

CDC NIOSH Self dispatched volunteer

NAEMT

Self dispatch slows patient care, increase death toll of emergency responders during 9/11

Self dispatching hinders 9/11 operations - JEMS

Slef dispatched volunteers and sight seers can put themselves and othersin harms way

[Stonewall]

Several links to "self dispatch" articles.

TC - I agree 100%.  I'm not sure if you were referring to my post above yours, but in my case the "incident" knocked on my front door.  I was asked if we were on the search because my squadron van was in front of my house where it was being kept (temporarily) and the officer assigned to be with the victim's family knew about CAP.  He notified his lieutentant that we were available and after about 2 hours of trying to figure out how to request CAP's support, they gave up because it was too much of a hassle.

I disagree with VFDs allowing volunteers to respond in their POVs to the incident site.  I'm still a little flexible on responding to the station to pick up an apparatus, but don't think that's the best answer either.

I am the only EMT on the property in which I work, but we have year 'round life guards who are DOT First Responders and live for responding to emergencies.  On Monday of this week we had a 63 year old man die in one of our pools.  Although more qualified medically, I stayed away from the scene and let the life guards do their job.  I was basically an IC liaising with county EMS, SO and our own personnel.  Same thing goes for "drive by's".  I have stopped at a lot of accidents, but I will not go out of my way to be a "hero".  I have a scanner for work and CAP, but I do not listen to EMS calls and try to beat the ambulance so I can feel good about myself.

There should absolutely be a process by which to request CAP's services, but in the event that an MOU has not yet been established, perhaps a streamlined "emergency procedure" should be available for situations like mine above.  Sorry, probably just venting as I am still bitter about that one...

[cap235629]

This is another reason NIMS ICS training is so desperately needed.  In both my ICS 300 and ICS 400 classes they covered the problem of self-dispatching extensively.  Play by the rules or stay on the porch.

[arajca]

In Emergency Management, there are two basic categories for volunteers - organized and unorganized. Organized are those folks who volunteer with an agency - Red Cross, VFD, CAP, ARES, ad nauseum. Unorganized are the folks who show 'just wanting to help'. Both have their place.

John Doe walking in off the street is not likely to find himself doing more than handing out consumables. John Doe with ARES, once they've been activated, will be in the thick of things.

[♠SARKID♠]

 I'm not talking about showing up in uniform. I'm talking about offering help as a trained civilian. There were some teenagers lost in the Niagara river for a whole week before they found the bodies floating offshore because they couldn't cover enough area (yeah, the officials handled that one great!!!)
 Don't even bring up 9-11, because if it wasn't for our "open door" policy, all these foreigners coming through Canada, and the aircraft schools catering to foreign students, it wouldn't have happened (those guys came through Canada, and had flight training in Florida).

You wanna play ball, you gotta play by the rules.

[NJMEDIC]

I had similar experiences with Law Enforcement and Fire Dept. in missing person searches. Law Enforcement is more passive on searches and relies on their K9 units. I have tried to at least push these groups to take NASAR missing person training but as always monies for training is the problem they are paid Dept's.

[RiverAux]

There should absolutely be a process by which to request CAP's services, but in the event that an MOU has not yet been established, perhaps a streamlined "emergency procedure" should be available for situations like mine above.

All they need to do is call the NOC and follow it up with an email or faxed letter requesting support.  The tricky part is phrasing the request in the right way so that it can get AFAM status. 

[Rob Sherlin]

  I'm not planning to go against the rules, I just think they need to work on them a bit where CAP can be of better service and not just forgotten about untill 6 hours after an incident when someone says, "Oh yeah!....Those guys!...They do searches!"
  If you read Stonewalls post....That totally sucks! His squadron could have made a big difference on whether that woman survived or not. But, we'll never know in situations like that, because by the time the officials go through the proper channels (if they can get a hold of anyone), and it comes back to the squadron level with an answer (yay or nay), you've allready lost a lot of time. Yet, we wonder why we don't get "activated" for such things more often......Why bother if it takes that long to contact anyone, and the answer is going to be no anyway!

  Maybe they just figure the later the better because it's easier to find a person after they're dead so they're not wandering.

 

[RiverAux]

One phone call and/or email/fax.  NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that. 

[N Harmon]

One phone call and/or email/fax.  NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that.

I'm not sure they were so streamlined in 2003, though.

[Stonewall]

One phone call and/or email/fax.  NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that.

I'm not sure they were so streamlined in 2003, though.

I called my wing CC who called someone in VAWG.  I got a number to call in VAWG and gave it to the Police Lieutentant who called said number.  He got nothing but a run around, a lecture on policies and how CAP is dispatched through AFRCC.

I don't know that NOC was fully operational then but it were that easy, I would like to think it would have worked.

[RiverAux]

Well, if we're talking about 2003, that is probably a different matter.  There was a period in the early 2000s when the AF lawyers had totally screwed up just about all existing local MOUs and other procedures for being called by the locals.  That fiasco seems to have led to the current system where it really is easy. 

[Stonewall]

Well, if we're talking about 2003, that is probably a different matter.  There was a period in the early 2000s when the AF lawyers had totally screwed up just about all existing local MOUs and other procedures for being called by the locals.  That fiasco seems to have led to the current system where it really is easy. 

I know we've gotten off topic, but my "story" was about a situation that happened in 2003.  It may be on page 5 if you didn't see it.

[Eclipse]

If the local agencies don't know about your unit's capabilities, availability, and SOP's for requesting and paying for CAP resources, that is a failure of your local unit's ESO, as well as rest of the chain, for not pushing those relationships.

I also think you're pushing an ad hominem argument about your own, personal, risk tolerance and willingness to act versus the regulations of a structured, professionalized volunteer force.

My CAP abilities and equipment don't have an on/off switch - in times of "unpleasantness", I am buoyed by the fact that I know I am more prepared and trained than my neighbors, and will likely become a neighborhood resource if the poop ever really hit the fan, but that doesn't mean I pull to the side for every car with flashers, or run out the door to chase sirens.

It also means I am more frustrated than my neighbors in situations where I know I could have helped, but was not called - just like every Policeman / Fireman / Paramedic / Airman / Soldier / Sailor / Marine / Guardsman, etc., in the history of history, watching the news when they know they could help.

In cases short of Katrina and the WTC, you don't solicit "business" for your agency during the emergency.  The ICS structure onscene doesn't have the ability to reasonably decide if they can / are allowed to use you, and likely already have a written contingency to do whatever it is that you would do, and your name isn't on it.

After things cool off, you request a meeting with the players and explain how you could have helped.  If they aren't interested, you move on, either up their chain, or out  to someone else who can use you.  If your AOR has a second situation where CAP could have helped, but they still don't know your name, that's your unit's fault (or the chain), not CAP, Inc.

As to what you do on your own dime - don't know, don't care.  It isn't even relevant to this conversation. But when you involve CAP in any way, you're no longer as "private" a citizen as you might think.