MK4 Sniffer Saves The Day!

[JoeTomasone]

Got a call this morning to assist a UDF team that could not locate an EPIRB.   They had been out for hours last night, and a few more this morning.    When I got there, the team showed me what they were getting with the L-Per - which was inconsistent at best.    Bearings in different places pointed in all manner of directions, and signal was lost/reacquired in several spots.   So, we put the Sniffer to work, and quickly located the EPIRB.   It was in a dumpster.   Between two long metal storage  buildings.   Underneath power lines.   And, to top it all off, the battery was just about dead.   

It was the worst-case scenario for the L-Per.    The Sniffer saw through it all and found it reasonably easily, although I'll admit it was a challenge, mostly due to the (lack of) signal strength.   Even when placed up to the antenna, the signal was only half-strength.   

If you haven't considered the Sniffer before, I strongly encourage you to do so.

[vento]

Good to hear about more success stories with the Sniffer.

I can only wish my Sniffer is also battle tested. Until now, it had seen very little action other than SAREX and UDF mission that had signals ceasing before we arrived. I always carry mine in the car ready to deploy. Our squadron also have a L-Per with the wooden stick and two cheese blocks.

[RADIOMAN015]

At least in my wing the number of ELT call outs has decreased drastically, so there's very little interest in using CAP unit funds to buy this equipment.  HOWEVER, for those also involved in amateur radio DF "fox" hunts this looks like it would be a great piece of equipment. 

It's too bad the inventor could not get the unit to cover 108-1300 mhz, I think this would give it a much broader market and appeal.
RM

[Mark_Wheeler]

What do you guys use for antennas? We have a Miller Enterprise one on ours and it works like a charm.  I've used a sniffer twice on UDF missions and they sure are nice. One problem though if everyone has sniffers, when you run into either 243.0 only or even more rare 243.0/406.025 beacon, your sniffer won't be able to do anything.

Mark

[JoeTomasone]

What do you guys use for antennas? We have a Miller Enterprise one on ours and it works like a charm.  I've used a sniffer twice on UDF missions and they sure are nice. One problem though if everyone has sniffers, when you run into either 243.0 only or even more rare 243.0/406.025 beacon, your sniffer won't be able to do anything.

Mark

I use the discontinued Diamond MAY1000 handheld beam.   

I've yet to encounter a beacon with no 121.5 component.   <shrug>

[Spaceman3750]

I've always been interested in the MK4 but haven't looked into it in detail (especially because I'm not very good with comm-related things besides what's in the 100 series and push then talk).

How difficult are they to build for someone with no electronics/radio experience?

[JoeTomasone]

I've always been interested in the MK4 but haven't looked into it in detail (especially because I'm not very good with comm-related things besides what's in the 100 series and push then talk).

How difficult are they to build for someone with no electronics/radio experience?

You don't build them, you buy them pre-assembled from the manufacturer.

http://www.foxhunt.com.au/

[SARJunkie]

all 406 beacons still transmit a 121.5 homer.

121.5 is a harmonic of 243, so you will receive 243 on 121.5

[Mark_Wheeler]

all 406 beacons still transmit a 121.5 homer.

121.5 is a harmonic of 243, so you will receive 243 on 121.5

Theoretically yes, they should transmit on that as well, but in the cases I've seen, the antenna has been damaged in some way where its cut that its only transmitting anything readable on 243.0. The 121.5 was on as well, but its only able to be picked up 200 feet away or so while the 243.0 was audible for several miles.

[Major Lord]

all 406 beacons still transmit a 121.5 homer.

121.5 is a harmonic of 243, so you will receive 243 on 121.5

Actually, its the other way around: 243 is the second harmonic of 121.5. A " harmonic" is a component frequency of the signal that is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency.

Major Lord

[Thom]

all 406 beacons still transmit a 121.5 homer.

121.5 is a harmonic of 243, so you will receive 243 on 121.5

Actually, its the other way around: 243 is the second harmonic of 121.5. A " harmonic" is a component frequency of the signal that is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency.

Major Lord

Yes, and 243.0 can generate a 121.5 signal, which would be the 2nd "subharmonic", or 1/x division of the signal. Note that subharmonics are almost universally much weaker than harmonics when speaking of radio frequency signals. I wouldn't want to depend on catching a subharmonic of a signal in order to track it down, but it is a possibility. Using a harmonic, such as detecting a 243.0 signal (2nd harmonic) from a 121.5 source is much more likely to be useful in real world circumstances.

Fun fact: One of the reasons that Bells are so distinctive in tone is that they naturally generate a core tone (1st harmonic) as well as both harmonics (overtones) and subharmonics (undertones), combining to give that unique sound.


Thom

[Major Lord]

I am not sure if the 121.5 signal from a 243 transmitter is a function of it being a subharmonic, or an incidental radiation of the reference oscillator used to produce the 121.5 signal. Either way seems probable, but I have not dissected an ELT or looked at one on my spectrum analyzer to know how dirty the output is. The spurious output specs look pretty tight as I recall. I suppose that the received 121.5 component could be a function of the wide band AM receiver creating a "Ghost" image by "ringing' the front end of the receiver. And now back to your regular programming....

Major Lord

[vento]

What do you guys use for antennas? We have a Miller Enterprise one on ours and it works like a charm.  I've used a sniffer twice on UDF missions and they sure are nice. One problem though if everyone has sniffers, when you run into either 243.0 only or even more rare 243.0/406.025 beacon, your sniffer won't be able to do anything.

Mark

I use a LVA-1 magnetic mounted from L-Tronics while driving in my vehicle. And a Diamond MAY 1000 out of the vehicle.

[JoeTomasone]

I use a LVA-1 magnetic mounted from L-Tronics while driving in my vehicle.

Forgot to mention that; I have one too.

[ECHO35]

I use a LVA-1 magnetic mounted from L-Tronics while driving in my vehicle.

Forgot to mention that; I have one too.

Hello I was just reading all the posts and if you guys want an RDF unit that is really accurate you should look into the Tigerstrike made by Firestorm emergency services. It makes everything else look obsolete

here is the link:  www.fsems.com

[Larry Mangum]

Hmm, the last poster seems to work for Firestorm.

http://www.socom.mil/sordac/TILO/BusinessPartnerNetwork/Lists/Business%20Partner%20Network/DispForm.aspx?ID=57

[Major Lord]

The MK4 has a wonderful advantage over the Tigerstrike in that it actually exists. I thought that after years of taking peoples' money they would have delivered a product by now.

Major Lord

[SarDragon]

[ECHO35]

As I am new to this forum I was unaware of the past banter between Maj Lord and my fellow colleagues. Upon further review it seems Maj Lord has a axe to grind I wonder why. What ever the case spreading rumors and false information about a company or another person is petty and unprofessional. At the end of the day search and rescue is about saving lives not personal differences.

Here are a few facts:
-The Tigerstrike does exist, I have one sitting next to me
-Tigerstrike has demonstrated to have a 2 degree aperture at 2km
-Can hunt an ELT over 80km
--132dbm sensitivity
-Demonstrated in a recent SAREX with CAP wing in Tampa where it located a ELT at 3.1 nautical miles in 30 seconds
more facts can be found at the website:
www.fsems.com

Bottom line is the proof comes when you see it for yourself and I would be happy to demonstrate the Tigerstrike to anyone who would like to see it.

I am always available if you have questions

Respectfully,

Paul Greaves 910-528-1512

"De oppresso liber"                                                                           

[Major Lord]

Excellent, I am pleased to know its a commercially produced item. Can you tell us the name of the CAP members who were provided the units mentioned on your web page so that we can solicit their experiences? If you would like to bring a unit to Travis AFB, I will arrange to have interested parties attend to see your product.

Major Lord

[Larry Mangum]

If I was a betting man, I would bet he is referring to the unit or units that were presented to CAP at national Boards in San Diego.

[Major Lord]

These units are in CAP possession? Has Major Keilholtz had a chance to test them?

Major Lord

[SARJunkie]

Didnt he say they were in Tampa?

[Major Lord]

He said they were demonstrated in Tampa. I have never personally known a member of CAP (other then their own people, masquerading here as third parties) who has seen a functioning prototype, let alone a production unit. They did provide a unit to someone on this forum for evaluation, but alas, it was not functioning. The poster on this page seems to think I have an axe to grind... and in this there is some "degree" of truth. I Don't want to see any more units scammed for venture capital while they try to build a working device. I am not a competitor, as they have tried to imply. I manufacture ham radio tracking transmitters.  I would love to be convinced of their products existence and functions!  I marvel at the incredible specifications! Its able to detect ELT's out to nearly the horizon! (80 KM)  It can provide a bearing resolution of 2 Degrees to a target 2 Kilometers away! It can be used to deliver artillery fire against Icom radios! Awesome. Bring one out to Travis or anywhere we can objectively test one, even a prototype, and you will make me the biggest advocate for your remarkable claims. Until then I am afraid, it stays in the snake oil aisle of your supermarket.

Major Lord

[Al Sayre]

I will once again offer my services to test a unit.  I am an electrical engineer with no axe to grind, and as an IC, I can arrange for the unit to be tested in the field on a SAREX (like we did the last time we tried to test it).  I will give you my honest opinions about the capabilities of the unit.

[Major Lord]

Al,

I apologize for not remembering that is was you who made the offer ( and attempt) to test the TS. I look forward with great enthusiasm to the response from FSEMS and any tests you may carry out.

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

First: I am not masquerading around I am not a CAP member (yet), I am a member of army SOF

AL I would be interested in setting something up I just need some details (where, when,who) shoot me an email and we can work something out. pgreaves23@gmail.com

The numbers in regards to accuracy were recorded and verified by SOCOM personnel at an event at Camp Roberts.
In that test we recorded consistent numbers at 5 km of plus or minus 3 degrees using 3 different freqs 121.775/146.565/243
This was a test to demonstrate the ability to DF icom chatter as seen in OEF and other hot lz's thru out the world

[Major Lord]

Okay, you are in "army SOF", great. And a group of people at Roberts tested the unit. Excellent. 6 degrees of resolution at 6 Klicks. Super. Show Al a working unit that will do what Murray claims the TigerStrike will do and I will happily believe it. Naturally, you have declassified test reports from your Roberts Eval too? We would be delighted to see them.

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

Okay, you are in "army SOF", great. And a group of people at Roberts tested the unit. Excellent. 6 degrees of resolution at 6 Klicks. Super. Show Al a working unit that will do what Murray claims the TigerStrike will do and I will happily believe it. Naturally, you have declassified test reports from your Roberts Eval too? We would be delighted to see them.

Major Lord

I have not declassified anything and there was nothing secret about the test. And I would be happy to show anyone. Nothing you have said to this point is helpfull nor important not to mention accurate.
Be carefull with your tone I did not come here looking for a fight, just here to pass along some information.

[Major Lord]

I am grieved that you don't like my my tone or attempt to help you demonstrate your product functions and actually exists helpful! I am sure that Al will be delighted to see the test results or AA's on your wonderful new system. How many have you sold? We would love to have a conversation with other Agencies about their experiences with Firestorm. Can you put us in touch with an Agency that has purchased one?

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

Anyway

If there is anyone in our around North Carolina and would like to see a demo let me know. Traveling any where else is not a problem just shoot me an email pgreaves23@gmail.com

[Al Sayre]

I've sent Paul a PM with a proposed date in May.  I'd like to do it sooner, but we have our GTE coming up, and I don't want our folks distracted from the training/preps by doing testing on new equipment. ( Some of them tend to wander off after shiny objects  )  I'd also be happy to review any test data you'd like to provide.

[ECHO35]

We are a go for the 26th of Feb looking forward to it. If there are any other CAP wings who have an up coming SAREX and would like a demo shoot me a email at pgreaves23@gmail.com

[Major Lord]

Looking at the Firestorm website, it appears that this current iteration of TigerStrike is a different animal (pun intended) than what Murray Craig offered before, at least it does not make mention that I could see of the telemetry by cellular,  electronic compass, etc. and appears to marry a directional antenna DF system to a display GPS. This approach seems a lot more realistic. I look forward to Al's tests.

Major Lord

[Larry Mangum]

It does look like a nice unit, but can we afford it at a cost of $5000.00 per unit, assuming it works as advertised.

[ECHO35]

The Cellular piece is meant to send info from the Tigerstrike to a command center or perhaps an aircraft. The idea is to give commanders the info the guys on the ground getting so there is no confusion. This is something that we need more feedback on.

[Spaceman3750]

It does look like a nice unit, but can we afford it at a cost of $5000.00 per unit, assuming it works as advertised.

LtCol Magnum raises a good point. ECHO35, what is the pricing model on this (is it really $5k?).

[caprescue]

Al Lord:

If you have a genuine interest in the facts about the Tigetrstike, please contact Major James Grogan, former CAP/USAF PCR, USAF, located in Sacramento, he was at the tests in November 2010 and can atest to the results and actual existance of the Tigerstrke. If you check patent office you will see we applied for our patent last April.

You are right the Tigerstrike has evolved into a compact ultra high performance antenna array system that is capable of hunting on 121.5 146.565, 216.0 243, and 406-407 MHz by changing out the array as the  length and element are sensitive. see our website, www.fsems.com

Next we evolved to the new AD 607 reciever chip and moved to a triple hetrodyne reciever model, with a Freescale DSP chip controling all the data. As we added the .1 degree compass, signal strength and GPS data to the stream that leads to the PDA or ruggedized PC, we use some AI to smooth the data and provide a artifical horizan like hunting screen that records 150 times a sec, and provides the best calcaluted solution.

Since we couldnt find a mapping soultion that would run both windows mobile 6.5 and W7 we wrote our own and display the results on the PDA. really different than last years solution. We are now encasing it in a aluminium housing for IP65 standards.

The results have been out standing. As for you calling our customers, not going to happen, you have shown your bias, and we will others sing its praises to this thread.

Hope that helps, we will see after the results of the test in MS

Thanks

Murray Craig, CTO

[Major Lord]

Murray,

Naturally I am biased, everyone is. I have no doubts that you have lots of prototypes and pre-production units. Al saw one, and we have all seen photos.  I have faith in Al's ability to do an impartial test, and will happily accept the results of whatever he finds. Not knowing James Grogan, I would be happier accepting the opinion of a trained and experienced ES operator and electronic engineer. I understand if you don't have any actual clients, since the product is still developmental. I wish you all the luck in the world! There is plenty of room for improvement in RDF gear, and I really hope that you can deliver a product that provides enhanced value and capabilities over what the market currently offers.


Major Lord

[caprescue]

Major James Grogan was until the last couple of months, the CAP/USAF PCR Region liaison member for the USAF, and is now reassigned to a new post. I am surprised you don't recognize him since you are so active in CAP. He can provide a completely unbiased opinion and was there at the test for USAF. How much better is that?

I am happy to engage in a civilized conversation as I am looking for input form all sectors of es especially on the software interface side of the house. I have tried to post some pics of the interface screen but have been unable to do so.

Murray

[Fubar]

I'm still looking for the cost per unit. There doesn't appear to be any pricing information on the website. Just how many car washes are we gonna have to host to afford one?

[Larry Mangum]

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:45:32 -0500

Subject: Re:
From: pgreaves23@gmail.com
To:

$5000 per unit


On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Mangum Larry <manguml@hotmail.com> wrote:


What is the cost per unit?

[Eclipse]

Did Flying Pig's unit ever actually take delivery of one?

[Eclipse]

The Circle of Life™ program was started in September 2010 in co-operation with the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) and Trimble's Mobile Computing Solutions Division (MCS) at the Civil Air Patrol National Convention where Firestorm™ Emergency Services donated five(5) Tigerstrike systems to selected CAP squadrons for purposes of Search & Rescue of wandering Alzheimer patients.

In the hands of a Civil Air Patrol squadron, the TigerStrike™ will provide search and rescue teams with the most advanced technology available to allow them to better perform their traditional SAR functions, while providing them with the newfound ability to search for any missing person—Alzheimer's wanderers, snowmobilers, mountain climbers, hikers, children (especially those with autism and other cognitive handicaps—anyone wearing a tiny bracelet containing a mini-beacon.

Anyone else ever heard of this? 

Where are the 5 donated unit today?

[Major Lord]

Not wanting to put words in Roberts Mouth, I understand that the squadrons payment was eventually refunded by Firestorm. I would love to talk to a representative from any of the Squadrons that have a unit. Any idea who these might be? ( I love the taste of crow, and identifying these Squadrons would be a great way to make me eat my words!) Tracking very low power Alzheimer patient transmitters is a tough challenge, and would be an excellent "Micro" application to validate the incredible claims about the unit. I don't know Major Grogan, so not immediately accepting his opinions at face value is no reflection on a man who I am confident must be an excellent officer. I would just prefer to have an evaluation from someone who is known to be a qualified and disinterested third party.

Major Lord

[Larry Mangum]

Major Grogan, was the DO for PLR at Beale AFB, until his retirement. Having said that, Major Grogan is not a SAR expert, and while he may have seen the units in action, I would want to see an evaluation conducted by accomplished SAR personnel.

[JoeTomasone]

-Demonstrated in a recent SAREX with CAP wing in Tampa where it located a ELT at 3.1 nautical miles in 30 seconds

Which SAREX, and to whom was it demonstrated?  I am located in Tampa and was not aware of this.

Incidentally, $5000 for one Tigerstrike = 16 MK4 Sniffer setups with mobile and handheld antennas.

[Major Lord]

The Circle of Life™ program was started in September 2010 in co-operation with the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) and Trimble's Mobile Computing Solutions Division (MCS) at the Civil Air Patrol National Convention where Firestorm™ Emergency Services donated five(5) Tigerstrike systems to selected CAP squadrons for purposes of Search & Rescue of wandering Alzheimer patients.

In the hands of a Civil Air Patrol squadron, the TigerStrike™ will provide search and rescue teams with the most advanced technology available to allow them to better perform their traditional SAR functions, while providing them with the newfound ability to search for any missing person—Alzheimer's wanderers, snowmobilers, mountain climbers, hikers, children (especially those with autism and other cognitive handicaps—anyone wearing a tiny bracelet containing a mini-beacon.

Anyone else ever heard of this? 

Where are the 5 donated unit today?

I can't find any reference to the "Circle of Life" program, or news releases relating to the cooperative arrangement between CAP and Trimble in either CAP or Trimble media archives. Trimble seems unaware of the relationship, but will hopefully point me in the right direction. I could find no publications referring to any agreements between CAP and Trimble. I could not find any mention of this relationship or the gift of the DF units in the 2010 Convention archives. Could you clarify this? Was there actually a Cooperative arrangement between Trimble and CAP? Or does this refer to an informal "handshake" deal between the CAP member principals of Firestorm and someone with Trimble? I am confused.

Major Lord

[Larry Mangum]

I saw Maj Craig and several other people present the units to CAP at the national boards in San Diego.  However were the units wound up at nobody seems to know.

[Major Lord]

I saw Maj Craig and several other people present the units to CAP at the national boards in San Diego.  However were the units wound up at nobody seems to know.

Roger that, there is probably a program or something on it somewhere.

Major Lord

[caprescue]

one last time........

Al ... who did you contact at Trimble for you to make that statement? Are you suggesting that his not true? Who did you talk to at CAP Natl about the arrangement? Clearly they are in place and why do you think you are entitled to see them?   Let's keep this civil .... Do you have any technology questions on what I posted I would be happy to answer.

As for pricing, the cost of the Yuma is about $3000 or the Nomad from Trimble is $1890, that is why the price is higher, but remember the functionality is more that we have had before. Look the Aircrews get Beckers that only work on one of the 406 frequencies for 22K, as ground teams why shouldnt we have new technology equipment?

[Major Lord]

Murray,

As I mentioned, my sources were based on the archives of public relations from Trimble and CAP. I am merely asking who made these agreements. If you say that they exist, like the Tigerstike, just show them to us. If this is too secret to reveal, super.  A significant donation like a Tigerstrike  would be on the Squadron or units property log, isn't that correct? So there should be no secret about who has them. I suspect that just raising the issues will help shed some light on these questions. I am not stating that your  representations are not true, I am just seeking clarification. After all, the PR archives are not authoritative. The actual location of the DF receivers seems to be (ironically enough) unable to be found. I am sure that in light of the fundraising regulations that CAP has in place, a paper trail authorizing the acceptance of the units should not be too hard to find.

Best regards,

Major Lord

[vento]

Let's see...
Eclipse made a statement and Major Lord ask for clarification because he couldn't find anything in the public sites.

Before Eclipse had a chance to respond, caprescue comes in and asks to "keep this civil..."

Why would a new CT member take all this so personal is beyond what my little brain with limited cell can handle. What I know is that we are drifting way off the original subject. Can a MOD either split this thread into something else or lock it for good? Please.

[Larry Mangum]

Let's see...
Eclipse made a statement and Major Lord ask for clarification because he couldn't find anything in the public sites.

Before Eclipse had a chance to respond, caprescue comes in and asks to "keep this civil..."

Why would a new CT member take all this so personal is beyond what my little brain with limited cell can handle. What I know is that we are drifting way off the original subject. Can a MOD either split this thread into something else or lock it for good? Please.

Because the new member is the Chief Technology Officer of the company that made the units and a CAP Major attached to NHQ as the head of the "CAP-Canadian SAR Actvities Committee".  See page 31 of the CAP/USAF Directory that can be down loaded from eServices.

[Major Lord]

The thread initially consisted of a discussion of the MK4 Sniffer, a newbie popped up redirecting the discussion to the new and amazing TigerStrike, which he alleged, would make everything else look like antiques ( or words to similar effect) The discussion has centered around the veracity of that and related claims. The newbie turned out to be a TigerStrike Operative, and was identified as such rather quickly. The "CTO" of Firestorm came to this board in a nearly identical way, inferring that he was a third party introducing us to a new product, and not identifying his affiliation with the product. Since these were CAP NHQ members marketing to CAP units, I was concerned about the possible conflict of interest. Firestorm went so far as to post photos of CAP members in "Caltrans" shirts on their old website.

Most of us have seen, used, tested, or handled the other RDF products on the market, and while many have proven to be lacking, none at least seen to be just complete vapor ware. I am merely asking for some evidence of the claims made by Firestorm about their alleged product and their company in general. Much like Murray, I would love to be able to focus on the technology, but so far, they have not been able to actually present a working product. Claims about endorsements, customers, donations, etc have not proven to be verifiable.

If the initiator of the thread feels that I have hijacked his thread, I sincerely apologize, and I would hate to have discussion of the an actual product from a proven source cutoff just because a few overeager salespeople jumped into the fray with unsubstantiated claims. There is a TigerStrike Yahoo Discussion group board, or there was, so I am more than happy to take the discussion there and spare you my obvious skepticism. Personally, I still like L-Pers, and like the Colt 1911, it has proven its worth time and time again. The MK4 is cool, but needs more users to go run actual missions before we have enough data to do a fair comparison.



Major Lord

[vento]

..... The MK4 is cool, but needs more users to go run actual missions before we have enough data to do a fair comparison.

Major Lord

I hear you Sir. Actually I like the standard CAP issued cheese block (better than the older wooden stick).

However the MK4 is cool because it is affordable. It's within my personal limit to spend my own money and acquire one MK4 to be kept in my car at all times. I myself and some other members that live in the same town are 45 minutes driving from the storage where our squadron equipment is stored.  Also, it is nice to have extra equipment around when the need arises in an actual mission where all CAP standard issued are deployed and more is needed. When every minute counts, having something is better than having nothing.

The TigerStrike looks good on paper and from what I am reading here it carries a large price tag with it too. I don't think I can shed that kind of money for a piece of equipment to be kept in my car at all tmes without some major compromise with my wife first.  :angel:

If the TigerStrike is as good as it claims to be, then IMHO it deserves a thread of its own instead of piggyback riding on the MK4 thread and comparing apples to oranges. Just my two cents.

[Major Lord]

I agree. One very cool thing about the MK4 is how easy and inexpensive it is to use for conventional ham radio "fox hunts". You don't even technically need to be a ham, since you are only receiving, not transmitting, and Fox hunting is a great way to keep those DF skills in tip top shape. The fact that it will cover a very wide band ( although you really need an antenna for 2 meters and one for 121.X to work well) and does not cost a lot, is icing on the cake. The directional ambiguity of a Yagi ( The Tigerstrike by the way does not use a Yagi, which Murray will enjoy addressing) is greater than a switched antenna, phase-shift or Time Difference of Arrival design, but the advantage of having a gain antenna allowing you to pull in those very weak signals makes up for the wider antenna lobes. I wish the MK4 guy hand an American distributor!

Major Lord

[Pyrrdin]

Hi all,
I am a amateur radio operator and a well seasoned T-Hunter, over 30 years.

I am reading your thread about the MK4 and I found a site that has a link to a guy who sells T-hunting antennas for Ham, CAP & custom DF antennas for your desired frequency.  I believe he also sells the MK4 as well.  I have used his antennas and they are very well made and very directional. The front to back & gain is superb.  As far as I know he is the only person the the US that sells the MK4 with his antennas or by it's self.

www.thunter.org  go to the link page and then to Ham site or something like that.  Sorry I don't have access to it from here.  The link your looking for will be something like  _____ Antennas. 

I am very interested in new designs and ways of hunting a transmitter so I keep an ear out and this thread caught my eye and I thought I would pop in and pass on the information I had.

Thanks you guys and gals for all the hard work you put into helping others.

I hope that helps for you who are looking for a supplier in the US for the MK4.

Problem for me is they are not water proof and don't take a beating very well but they work great!

~C

[Larry Mangum]

Hmm Bob Miller, who is the guy referred to in the above post, is oh wait, a partner in Firestorm Emergency Services.

[Major Lord]

Firestorm Ltd for the longest time was a Nevada Corporation in suspense , but they are now I believe a WA corporation. Its pretty clear that they have a number of very close "contacts" in Operations and other areas in CAP who could potentially be in a position to help them sell their products, if and when they become available. There is another prominent member of CAP in CAWG who I believe may be invested in Firestorm. It is remarkable that discussion of the TigerStrike seems to be such a powerful recruiting tool for Captalk; Lots of brand new anonymous newbies seem to pop up whenever the subject arises.

I hope that Al Sayre can gain access to a TS and let us know how it compares to other products. It is absolutely amazing that of 5 Units handed out just a few short months ago to "select units" none can be located, and no one seems to even know to whom they were given. Remarkable.

Major Lord

[vento]

I've actually seen a CAWG member using the Bob Miller antenna in a SAREX with his MK4. Since I didn't actually observe it during a hunt, nor did I have a chance to compare it to the other antennas, I am not in position to judge it's usefulness. However, the product exists and is definitely not vaporware. BTW, I first learned about Bob Miller's antenna from the MK4 web-site.

[Larry Mangum]

Not knocking the antenna nor Bob Miller, simply stating as Major Lord did that we seem to be getting a lot of "newbie" posts that all point back to people pushing the FireStorm product. Let me also be clear, I am not against the Tigerstrike product, in fact I am for any tool that makes it easier to locate ELT's, I just prefer for people to be upfront and honest about who they represent.

[caprescue]

AL

Guess you better check your facts on the company...... We are not is suspense.. Now I know why I stopped posting here, by the way we are using the Tigerstrike at the SAREX this weekend in Group 5 in Riverside, why dont you drive down and see it for your self. Bob will let you test it after the class. We will post the results after the weekend.  We are actively seeking other SAREXs to attend to get feedback on the interface and usability. Let me know if there is an interest.

Murray

[vento]

AL

Guess you better check your facts on the company...... We are not is suspense.. Now I know why I stopped posting here, by the way we are using the Tigerstrike at the SAREX this weekend in Group 5 in Riverside, why dont you drive down and see it for your self. Bob will let you test it after the class. We will post the results after the weekend.  We are actively seeking other SAREXs to attend to get feedback on the interface and usability. Let me know if there is an interest.

Murray

You must had meant CAWG Group 3 SAREX. The mission base is at SQ5 HQ at the Riverside Airport. Mission base opens at 8:00 am on Saturday 19 FEB 2011. Flight operations were cancelled due to weather but ground teams will press on. Hopefully someone who is impartial and has expertise in the area from CAP will be there to evaluate the unit.

Please make sure to post the results, if any, of the Tigerstrike. I would love to drive all the way to RIV if it wasn't for the CAWG Group 7 SAREX next weekend. I am sure we will be talking to SQ5 in the near  future and learn first hand about the new tools and its claims.

[Mark_Wheeler]

AL

Guess you better check your facts on the company...... We are not is suspense.. Now I know why I stopped posting here, by the way we are using the Tigerstrike at the SAREX this weekend in Group 5 in Riverside, why dont you drive down and see it for your self. Bob will let you test it after the class. We will post the results after the weekend.  We are actively seeking other SAREXs to attend to get feedback on the interface and usability. Let me know if there is an interest.

Murray

Heads up thats the Group 3 SAREX at Riverside Airport. I'll be there working so I'll take a look at it if I get a chance!

Mark

[Major Lord]

Bob Miller makes a very nice hand-held folding Yagi antenna, and he has a great reputation. I was not aware that he was selling the MK4, and I am glad that there is a local distributor. Bob Miller is also  the President of Firestorm, a Nevada Corporation which is no longer in suspense. I regret that I won't be able to travel to lovely Riverside in a major rainstorm, but I hope that someone reading this gets a chance to go and take a look. How I envy you! Riverside in winter, sweet!

Major Lord

[Pyrrdin]

I guess I should not be surprised at the comments after my post.

I am sorry that I even spoke up at this point. If someone new about this Mr. Miller guy, why was nothing mentioned about his equipment. Just because he allegedly works for the Firestorm (I don't know if he does or not) he makes a great product for whomever to use. If you want a contact in the US to buy the MK4 then you know how to contact him.

You all indicate you want to be fair and none judgmental to other people or a company according to so many postings, but yet you judge in a very harsh manor and make indications about the dishonesty of people who are a newbie.

I could tell you who I work for and what department but you would just want my identification and want proof and then you would not care at all because you don't know me.

Yes a newbie and I was a guest just reading. I thought I would put some knowledge I had to your thread and be helpful to your cause. Which is supposed to be saving lives and helping others.

It is a truly sorry thing that some of you are so suspicious of people who would like to part information and trying to help you people save lives or just be better at what you do. 

No wonder more of the CAP wing people don't want to join into your conversations. You would just tear them apart by picking on wording so you can keep showing others how big of a man you are.

With the architecture of wording you choose (ML) is well designed to poke at people to your gradient thought process of attacking anyone you think or can manipulate to your desire to be so judgmental of others. I am sorry that you have had such a hard life to become the person you are.  I am sure you and maybe a few others will pick this apart as much as you can to show more about what kind of person you are. Although I am sure most people know exactly who and what you are. A jealous  bitter old man who enjoys border lining on slander.

I am sure you will have the moderator remove my post so no one will read this.

To all of you, please take satisfaction in your work to help others and become a better person to enjoy life. Your voluntary role to our country I thank you for doing the best you can and committed work to bring your skills to help all and groom others who are coming to join.

I pray God will look over you and help you help others.

[Major Lord]

I am glad that our anonymous poster brought up Bob Miller's antennas. Its natural that in a discussion about DF receivers, directional antenna are a necessary and important link. There are not a lot of commercial options for 121.X Yagis: The Diamond MAY-1000 with its front driven element and one reflector was an interesting idea, but the deal with having to use its included tape measure to set the element length and distance is not idea, and its a little iffy on the gain side. Lots of people have built variations of the three element Tape Measure antenna ( which I could be wrong, but I think Bob Miller may have published something on this years ago) They are functional and effective, but look like something the cat dragged in. The public was not impresses with the ham-kludge, and you could still put your eye out with it.

Mr ( Or monsieur) Anonymous, you might have noticed just a tinge of skepticism in regards to the claims of Firestorm, and perceived some history there. I am confident that Murray Craig will eventfully clear the whole thing up. FYI, I have not seen the Mods delete posts as a rule, although they will shut down a thread that starts to get too personal. Bob MIller is listed on the Official records of the Nevada Secretary of State as the President of Firestorm. I assume that its our Bob Miller, since his antenna website has a link to Firestorm. Your contributing post may have been the most valuable one in this thread so far: You should us where to find a MK4 and and good antenna for it.

Major Lord

[JoeTomasone]

The Diamond MAY-1000 with its front driven element and one reflector was an interesting idea, but the deal with having to use its included tape measure to set the element length and distance is not idea

Nope.   121 is pretty much the low end of it - extend to maximum length on all elements and go!

and its a little iffy on the gain side.

Generally I work myself in with a mag-mount 121.5 antenna (from L-Tronics) until the MK4 has hit the 5th or 6th attenuation step, and then I've got a strong enough signal to easily nail it with the MAY-1000 (because at that point, I am within walking distance).    The way I hunt with the MK4 is different than the way everyone hunts with the L-Per.

[Major Lord]

You have the elements extended to their maximum and separated to there maximum? Have you used the antenna on 243 or 406? I thought it was a nice idea, but would have preferred it with 3 elements...I guess there were not enough of us SAR guys out there to Keep Diamond interested in production.

Major Lord

[jks19714]

Have you considered an Arrow antenna (http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/arrowii.html)?  They will cut elements to order.  You only need to carry one boom and three sets of elements. 

-- john

[SarDragon]

Have you considered an Arrow antenna (http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/arrowii.html)?  They will cut elements to order.  You only need to carry one boom and three sets of elements. 

-- john

How do you properly space the elements for each freq?

[starshippe]

. . if element spacing is a significant problem, and i'm not sure if it is or not, u could just drill holes at whatever spacing u wanted in the boom, and mount the elements through the appropriate holes. the reflector holes could of course be left as is. if the holes were too close together, one set could be drilled at 90 deg from the others.
. . i've found the arrow antenna folks prompt, and i carry several of their antennas with me in the tahoe. i do put a nut on one end the threaded section, and snug it down a bit, to keep it from rattling loose.
. . now im anxiously awaiting a mk4. forgive me, bruce.

73,
bill

et1(ss) ex usn

[jks19714]

Have you considered an Arrow antenna (http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/arrowii.html)?  They will cut elements to order.  You only need to carry one boom and three sets of elements. 

-- john

How do you properly space the elements for each freq?

Yes, simply drill additional holes for the other 2 freqs, then number or colorcode the elements.  I suspect that if someone would express a requirement for a "flexible" 3-frequency DFing antenna to the folks at Arrow, they could accomodate you.

-- john

[ECHO35]

Just curious what kinda range can you get with Arrow ?

[Major Lord]

The Arrow 3 element unit is popular with hams who generally only use one, two meter frequency. ( Its called Arrow" because the sections were literally made from archery shafts) You might get 6-7 dB of gain, or about quadrupling your range over a standard whip, and reasonably narrow "lobes" . Its hard to ever predict range, since so many factors have to be calculated, and the real world still makes its adjustments. From an aircraft, using a MK4, I would expect the unit to detect an Epirb or ELT out to the Horizon. Across ground, all bets are off!

I ordered a nine element Yagi ( that sits around gathering dust) for use on top of our old mast at the bunker on Travis.....we got evicted, so no more antenna tower, and no way to see what a antenna like that will really do. initial tests looked impressive. It might be a bit awkward in the field.

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

Thanks that makes sense I would like to do a comparison test between the MK4 with a few different antennas and the Tigerstrike. I will be at the Jackson Mississippi CAP squadron this weekend demonstrating the Tigerstrike during their SAREX.

[Major Lord]

The last I heard, the Tigerstrike used the two-element "HB9CV" direction finding antenna, is that still part of the design? (For non-hams, I could tell you what it is but you would explode from the shear boredom of the experience) Have fun In Jackson. Anyone else from here going?

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

The antenna is a phased array. My POC for the SAREX is Maj Sayre

[Al Sayre]

Ran the test today.  It does exist.  It has a lot of potential.  It works at least as well as the L-Per. Impressive range.  I still need to do some tabulation and number crunching and will post the results in a day or so.

[RADIOMAN015]

Ran the test today.  It does exist.  It has a lot of potential.  It works at least as well as the L-Per. Impressive range.  I still need to do some tabulation and number crunching and will post the results in a day or so.

Well I think this all gets down to cost.  I don't see CAP going out and spending the approx $5K per ground unit, when the ELT missions overall have decreased.  UNLESS other electronic type DF missions come about, I'd venture to say that what equipment we have (likely LTronics L'Pers) will be what we use.  Those that want to personally buy the MK4 sniffer, and can use that equip for ham radio type DF fun will do so.
RM   

[4x4junky]

Hi everyone.

I have been a member (of the forum) for a while reading the postings in the forum and I have a question about hunting EL T's & EPRB's.

My son and I have been thinking of joining but he has been a bit young.  Now that he is old enough I am wondering about the radios you need to use the repeaters and the equipment to hunt ELT's.

I can see that CAP is mostly talking about using the EL-per. Is this the only allowed device to hunt ELT's?
In this thread I see that other equipment is being talked about. Can any of this other gear be used within the CAP. Is the other gear authorized;  would be another way of putting it.

Does CAP supply all the gear a person needs to do the tracking?

If this is the wrong thread to talk about this, please let me know and go ill find the correct one.

Thanks

[davidsinn]

Hi everyone.

I have been a member (of the forum) for a while reading the postings in the forum and I have a question about hunting EL T's & EPRB's.

My son and I have been thinking of joining but he has been a bit young.  Now that he is old enough I am wondering about the radios you need to use the repeaters and the equipment to hunt ELT's.

I can see that CAP is mostly talking about using the EL-per. Is this the only allowed device to hunt ELT's?
In this thread I see that other equipment is being talked about. Can any of this other gear be used within the CAP. Is the other gear authorized;  would be another way of putting it.

Does CAP supply all the gear a person needs to do the tracking?

If this is the wrong thread to talk about this, please let me know and go ill find the correct one.

Thanks

Any direction finder that will track 121.5 Mhz is allowed. Some is issued to ground teams. The best advice would be to locate your nearest unit and ask them because things work a little differently in every part of this organization.

[Al Sayre]

OK, so as not to sidetrack this discussion even more, I have posted the test data and results in a new topic called Tiger Strike Test Results.  Get out your calculators, rulers and maps, and let the arguments begin! 

[4x4junky]

Ok, that is good news any equipment can be used for tracking.
SQ68 is my closest wing.

So, CAP is not standardized across the US.

Ok, thanks.

Any direction finder that will track 121.5 Mhz is allowed. Some is issued to ground teams. The best advice would be to locate your nearest unit and ask them because things work a little differently in every part of this organization.

[Mustang]

No wonder more of the CAP wing people don't want to join into your conversations. You would just tear them apart by picking on wording so you can keep showing others how big of a man you are.

Major Lord's inability to behave like an adult online is well-documented and has already gotten him banned from one CAP-oriented forum (Cadetstuff.org).   

Don't feed the trolls.

[Major Lord]

No wonder more of the CAP wing people don't want to join into your conversations. You would just tear them apart by picking on wording so you can keep showing others how big of a man you are.

Major Lord's inability to behave like an adult online is well-documented and has already gotten him banned from one CAP-oriented forum (Cadetstuff.org).   

Don't feed the trolls.

Ouch, to be called a "troll" by an anonymous ex-cap member about a board that he is not supposed to even acknowledge exists! Mustang, you just don't understand the situation with the Tigerstrike, Murray, and the "Firestorm" People. Keep an open mind, and I am sure that you will see what I mean about them in fairly short order.

Major Lord

[cap235629]

is there a way to mount one of these in an airplane? It might solve the no DF in the retrofit issues we now have in our planes...

[Major Lord]

There are only a few DF units approved for installation in certified aircraft, and the MK4 ( and I am confident the Tigerstrike) are not  approved or approvable. Also, since both use directional antenna, installing DF antenna would be quite a problem, even if the FAA would let you hardwire the receiver. Approved tracking receivers naturally cost a gazillion dollars, so the ham gear would be too cheap and easy!  You can still use your VHF radio as a direction finding receiver, but DF'ing using your Com antenna is a special skill ( I think you have to be able to hold your tongue the right way while flying inverted and still listening to your radio and other sophisticated techniques like that) You could also hand-hold a DF receiver like the MK4 running off internal batteries, which would be a lot easier.

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

We are working on a air craft solution I will post updates as soon as I can. More info about the tigerstrike can be found on the thread titled Tigerstrike test.

[JoeTomasone]

There are only a few DF units approved for installation in certified aircraft, and the MK4 ( and I am confident the Tigerstrike) are not  approved or approvable. Also, since both use directional antenna, installing DF antenna

MK4 doesn't require a directional antenna.   I use an omni on my vehicle to get AOS and narrow down the search area.   Works great.

You could absolutely use an airband antenna on the aircraft with the MK4, other considerations notwithstanding (such as needing it for the radio!).

[Major Lord]

Joe,

I agree completely, but using the omni antenna will require more skill that the Yagi for accurate direction finding. ( The Lper also does not require a directional antenna) Also, a permanent installation of the MK4 (in anything other than an experimental aircraft) would be a non-starter. Even with a rubber duck on the MK4, I would expect long distance AOS of an ELT on the ground to be astounding at altitude! Have you found a "maximum range" with this technique?

FYI, A lot of the people that buy the APRS trackers I manufacture have a Com antenna with a BNC mounted on the panel  ( which as far as the FAA is concerned, is for connecting  in your hand-held aviation receiver)

Major Lord

[ECHO35]

That's a good question what is the max range with that setup? Also what kind of range / accuracy do you guys with your aircraft DF systems?

[JoeTomasone]

Only tried once while airborne, and it was with the directional antenna.   Bad mistake.   Not a lot of room!

I wish I had the time (and funding, and aircrew ratings) to try it on a more regular basis.

[4x4junky]

Major Lord,
I have read about the APRS and I was / am thinking about installing them in my cars. (daughters) lol
What antenna do you make? were can I find it?  I would rather support others than a big corp.

Thank you

Joe,

FYI, A lot of the people that buy the APRS trackers I manufacture have a Com antenna with a BNC mounted on the panel  ( which as far as the FAA is concerned, is for connecting  in your hand-held aviation receiver)

Major Lord