Comm Truck

[Eclipse]

^ Sorry, citing some state regulation unrelated to CAP without anything that ties CAP to it doesn't fly.

I am speaking from practical reality and personal experience.  CAP is not a self-sufficient, first-responder, go-it-alone agency.  Other than ELT searches, we are a secondary and tertiary support agency that becomes part of a greater, already existing framework.

Being self sufficient, or at least not a liability in the field is an asset, but expecting us to be a self-funded, self-sufficient agency as a matter of course is unreasonable, not necessary, and not required.

Feel free to cite any real-world operation you have participated in where you had to deploy self-sufficient with no support from other agencies.  2-hour ELT hunts don't count.  If you didn't stay overnight, it doesn't count.

[IceNine]

You signed an operating agreement?

They are referring to food water and shelter in the 96 hour block.  Since we won't be the lead agency we will have to figure out integration and that throws out self sufficiency.  Rolling up and saying "We don't need anything from you" would be the worst logistical situation you could possibly get yourself into.  Saying no thanks from the beginning takes your resource needs to the bottom of the list.

If you walk up and ask where is the potable water, chow line, and quarters someone will point you in the right direction.  If one or all of those is not available that is when you go to plan B and pull out the tents, water bottles, and MRE's.

We have to integrate with the lead agency's communications system so other than command and control of our resources we don't need a big truck.  We can call in a high bird with mobile repeater, or run up a mast with the same equipment.

For SAR and other than DR there is little chance of hard infrastructure being compromised.  For DR there are shelter management agencies.

I don't disagree with having several mission equipment trailers located throughout the wing but having specialized equipment located at one end of the planet or even in the center is probably prohibitive.

[IceNine]

A good part of the problem with this conversation is that SAR and DR are simply not the lions share of our operations.

They are a task that we are required to train for and perform but not something that any one can devote enough attention to to make us a viable lead agency.  There are way to many jobs and activities for our members to balance

There are far to many organizations that spend the entirety of their budgets to further their capabilities for response to SAR and DR. 

We are a primary agency for putting planes in the air and in some areas boots on the ground, but at the end of the day we will be doing so on someone else's dollar at their request.

[Rescue826]

Sooo... we are called out to a DR response  to support lets say a State for a cat 4 Impact.  They have tasked us to conduct ground  Recon of a 100 Square mile area.  We have the manpower, and training  to make that happen.  But then we tell the State that we need, food, water, hotels, fuel, and a whole laundry list of equipment to complete the mission.  If that is the case then why did we even advertise that we conduct RECON ops for them? Why did we accept the mission.  The could call on she Guard, Sheriff, Fish and Wildlife and not have to deal with all the extra crap that we cant do for ourselves.   So what good is CAP in a disaster if we must rely on soo much outside support to compete our mission.

In the Real world I can tell a Sheriff, Fish and Wildlife, or NG RECON strike team to do the same mission. and poof, its done. They handle everything that is needed to support themselves 100% in the field.  PERIOD.

So why are we so different?   It is this mentality why we dont get called upon anymore....

[Eclipse]

So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

They answer the phone because the support and funding MOU's are already in place and everyone knows where the money is coming from in advance.  No money, no people.  Armageddon aside, PD, FD, and other EMS don't work for free.  In a situation like Katrina, everybody pulls the train, but it was also a windfall of overtime and bankrupted many agencies.

Private contractors won't answer the phone without a PO from the agency requesting assistance, and these days, literally, some will ask for a check on arrival or even cash because so many states are strapped for cash.

Yet CAP is supposed to somehow be a magical self-sufficient, member-funded agency standing in the middle of everyone else getting at least reimbursed?  That's not how it works, and not in our mandate.

[Rescue826]

Back to the Comm / Command Vehicle...


Soo you have $400,000 to build out a C3 vehicle / trailer...  What would you put in it? And Why? What would be its role in a SAR, Disaster, and in other missions?

Drivers / operators are not an   issue.  Maintenance  will be covered 100% from funds from the grant for the next 5 years.


With that kind of cash would we really cobble something together by ourselves, or have a real contractor build it to our specs to make a professional system?

If a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

[Rescue826]

So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

[Eclipse]

If a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

Because they use them once a week, not once a year, and they are used within the immediate area they are deployed, not parked 6 hours away from the AO.

[Eclipse]

So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

The NOC is only concerned with vehicle fuel, mostly for the aircraft, they do not care about member expense, ancillary euipment, or any of the other things needed to be self-sufficient.

Further, a lot of missions these days go without NOC involvement, and with no funding.

[Rescue826]

If a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

Because they use them once a week, not once a year, and they are used within the immediate area they are deployed, not parked 6 hours away from the AO.

The FLWG Comm trailer is deployed on average of 9 days a month...  Why does yours roll once a year?

[ammotrucker]

^ Sorry, citing some state regulation unrelated to CAP without anything that ties CAP to it doesn't fly.

I

Again, if you had the entire document you would see that this is what is required of CAP.  As it is stated in the SOP.  This is related to CAP the SOP is written for CAP, FFWC, and FLNG.  A signed agreement with an organization that you are accepted funding from is just as much part of CAP as is any other document that you want to see.

I have never stated that we are a first responder, I never stated that we are a lead agency.  But you miss the point that there are agency's that respect CAP and utilize CAP.  They know the value of this organization and the benefits.  Maybe your state agency doesn't utilize you do to your mentality or being so frugel So I believe that you would rather cobble together a rinky dink go box to accomplish your mission, and I would spend some money a build something that is a little more professional looking and I am wrong to try to promote a professional image.  Of which you could care less about.

[Rescue826]

So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

The NOC is only concerned with vehicle fuel, mostly for the aircraft, they do not care about member expense, ancillary euipment, or any of the other things needed to be self-sufficient.

Further, a lot of missions these days go without NOC involvement, and with no funding.

not correct.  NOC handles lodging and perdiem as well.

  If you need ancillary equipment to carry out a request, why did you accept the request in the first place?
This is what Kills us! we accept a mission, then scramble to figure out how to do it, or how to equip our teams to do it.   If you cant complete the mission 100% then why accept it?

[FlyTiger77]

The FLWG Comm trailer is deployed on average of 9 days a month...  Why does yours roll once a year?

Your trailer is deployed 108 days a year on actual missions or does that include training?

v/r

[Rescue826]

Training as well. 

[Rescue826]

Sooo...how would you equip yours?

[FlyTiger77]

Training as well.

How often would you estimate it is used for actual missions?

[Rescue826]

In the past year...


3 Months for Deepwater

6 Weeks HLS Missions

2 Weeks for actual SAR

[cap235629]

In the past year...


3 Months for Deepwater

6 Weeks HLS Missions

2 Weeks for actual SAR

I love it when an ill conceived argument falls apart!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[whatevah]

for those interested in the DE Wing truck... here are some pics (several years old... now has a Wifi network and updated computers)
[smg id=279]
http://captalk.net/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=album;id=31 <- full gallery

[Eclipse]

One state's unique year does not a program make...