I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft. We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works. We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles. Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams? Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off. An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs. They would never even need to land! We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF. I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional.
Since you mentioned them, interesting tidbit on the NVG's
When I took the Inland SAR Planner Course the instructor, an AF Helo Pilot, found out that our pilots are not allowed NVG's and started flaming a little about it. His exact words were " there's no way in Hell I'd fly at night without NVG's, why do they expect you guys to?"
I agree, if it makes our mission safer and more successful we should use them. All we need is the equipment and training. I could only imagine what a crashed airplane in a field would look like with a full moon.
Quote from: J.Hendricks on July 03, 2007, 04:06:07 PM
Since you mentioned them, interesting tidbit on the NVG's
When I took the Inland SAR Planner Course the instructor, an AF Helo Pilot, found out that our pilots are not allowed NVG's and started flaming a little about it. His exact words were " there's no way in Hell I'd fly at night without NVG's, why do they expect you guys to?"
Because we're not supposed to fly lower than 2000' AGL at night. If I was a helo pilot doing low-level flight at night, then I'd feel different.
The lights and sirens bit as it relates to CAP use has already been discussed a bit in this thread (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2136.0).
A quick summary of my take on the cons against lights and sirens for CAP vehicles:
- Adds a lot of liability to CAP, Inc. and will increase CAP's vehicle insurance rates substantially
- CAP van drivers do not have emergency vehicle driving education necessary to understand how to properly operate such a vehicle
- CAP Regulations (specifically CAPR 77-1) prohibits CAP vehicles from having and using sirens of any form and also prohibits lights of any color other than clear and/or amber. Even then, if your state doesn't allow you to have clear or amber lights, CAP says you better not even do that.
- Laws vary from state and state and may not even allow agencies like CAP to operate as emergency responders to begin with
- But the most effective argument, I think, is that it's not needed. CAP Ground Teams are not first responders. We do not provide Emergency Medical care, we do not provide protection, law enforcement, or other first responder services. ELTs are not so urgent to shut off that we should risk the lives of our members and members of the public to get there a few minutes sooner. In addition, CAP is not set up for rapid response anyways; it generally takes us an hour or two to mobilize an aircrew or ground team.
In my opinion, it's just not a wise idea. I think amber lightbars and maybe directional arrow sticks in the rear are nice additions to CAP vans for
visiblity purposes when
stationary. When parked along side a road, around a blind curve or over a blind hill, or in an otherwise potentially dangerous spot, it's nice to have that added visibility.
In addition, a PA horn (
not a siren) could be a useful addition to CAP vans for some situations. Examples may be CAP volunteering for crowd control at large events, or trying to attract the attention of a lost hiker in the woods, etc. That would have useful applications.
I just don't see any benefit to CAP that outweights the list of detractions to warrant any type of warning device while
en route, regardless of the mission type. If it's
that urgent of a call, be assured legitimate first responders will also be answering the call.
I thought we were first responders! We should have teams on the road within 30 minutes of activation by AFRCC. To wait 2 hours should be unacceptable! And ALL ELTs at an airport should be considered an emergency until it is located and deemed otherwise. As far as the regs., change them.
And someone accused those involved in the Ranger program of being fanatical? LOL
I was almost a Ranger long ago, great p and training! We need all our ground teams like them.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:26:04 PM
We need all our ground teams like them.
No, we don't. There is reason many wings dropped ranger programs. The problem was the egos of the Rangers. Big head, low tolerance for working with anyone besides rangers. Royal pains in the backside.
Quote from: arajca on July 03, 2007, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:26:04 PM
We need all our ground teams like them.
No, we don't. There is reason many wings dropped ranger programs. The problem was the egos of the Rangers. Big head, low tolerance for working with anyone besides rangers. Royal pains in the backside.
Just a friendly note: Already threads discussing this potential tangent, including this 6-page gem (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1936.0).
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:12:01 PM
I thought we were first responders! We should have teams on the road within 30 minutes of activation by AFRCC. To wait 2 hours should be unacceptable! And ALL ELTs at an airport should be considered an emergency until it is located and deemed otherwise. As far as the regs., change them.
Within 30 minutes, you're lucky if an IC has been found.
Use some common sense. If an ELT is going off at an airport, why not have the local sheriff or pd swing by. If they don't see anything amiss, it's not an emergency. If they do, they're more than capable of calling in help. As has been mentioned several times in various discussions here, CAP is not a first response agency. It is a second or third tier response agency. There is no point to running lights and sirens for CAP. Aside from that, there are far too many folks don't understand that running lights and sirens does not mean you are immune from any problems that result from violating the speed limits and busting stop signs/lights.
Quote from: arajca on July 03, 2007, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:26:04 PM
We need all our ground teams like them.
No, we don't. There is reason many wings dropped ranger programs. The problem was the egos of the Rangers. Big head, low tolerance for working with anyone besides rangers. Royal pains in the backside.
No, we do not need all ground teams like the Rangers; not everyone enjoys training this way. There is plenty enough room in the sandbox for everyone however as long as some will stop their whining.
A couple of things to understand are:
A)We don't train on the concept of "Ranger Teams". Every class that we've taught has had a session on teaching and evaluation techniques. This is based on the premise that they might likely have more training than some others when they return to their squadrons and they are expected to share the love so to speak. I am a huge believer in the ripple effect; that by training a handful (the ones that are willing to show up) to within an inch of their lives then sending them home to train others, we can have a much greater effect than simply putting on training for our local groups.
B) Big heads and egos are counter-productive to getting folks to listen to you and your training. We don't want folks going home with a know-it-all attitude as that simply gets in the way of what we're trying to accomplish.
If you really want to know how I feel (or even care), read the email I sent a while back and linked to below; it is a reply to something someone else had written so some of it may seem out of context, but you'll get the important parts. It explains a lot why it hurts me to hear some folks talk about our Ranger program the way they do.
http://www.tallahasseecap.org/htm/email.htm
As a practical matter, CAP generally can not function as a first responder....our members, ground teams, aircrews have jobs, school families and are not necessarily located near enough one another to assemble that quickly.
In DR situations we are viewed as 'follow on' forces, coming into service as the scope or length of the incident expands or extends.
Legally I doubt we'd be considered first responders even in SAR situations, since that responsibility devolves on the individual states -- mot of which assign it further to state police and/or county sheriffs.
^^^ over 80% of emergency services across the country (depending on whose statistic you read) is volunteer with members coming form home to support the community.
I know of a mission where the plane crashed just off the runway. The pilot and passenger survived but the pilot later died while waiting for help. CAP did not respond until morning because the ELT plotted near the airport and the FBO confirmed he could hear it...so they waited. By the time CAP was on the road way after first light another pilot heard the ELT and spotted the crash. The pilot has passed away just a few hours earlier. It think CAP needs to consider themselves as first responders like volunteer firefighters or EMS or should get out of the SAR business. How would you feel about CAP if you were that passenger or pilot's family? We all want to be like the AF, treated like the AF and be considered "professionals", maybe we need to step it up a notch or two. There is no reason it should take more than 30 minutes to find an IC after the AFRCC alerts the wing and 30 minutes to get a UDF team on the road.
CAP is NOT the volunteer fire department.
We do not usually even get called by AFRCC until about 6 hours after the first ELT signal is received. (They get at least 2 sattelite passes to confirm the coordinates of the signal)
But, on the subject of emergency CAP vehicle driving, who remembers "Big Red" from one of the other CAP sites?
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
Quote from: isuhawkeye on July 03, 2007, 09:54:34 PM
^^^ over 80% of emergency services across the country (depending on whose statistic you read) is volunteer with members coming form home to support the community.
Absolutely correct, nearly 80% of the US is protected by volunteer fire and EMS first responders. If CAP were the fire departments or medics, either 80% of our towns would have burned down or died of heart attacks. Saying CAP are just volunteers as an excuse to not respond quickly or professionally is just wrong.
Why do we use volunteer status as an excuse? Some of our volunteer fire and EMS agencies respond (per station/unit) to six or seven responses a day week in and week out. Some volunteer firefighters go on strike forces for weeks at a time without pay or job protection. Why are we so different when we only have 40 or 50 missions a year wing wide?
I had a buddy who went to Hawaii Wing, said CAP acft were fitted with loudspeakers to fly "tsunami warning" flights.
Same as Oregon Wing. The have an aircraft outfitted with special speakers that can be heard 2 miles away (good luck). Our state trooper helicopters just use siren speakers and can be heard clearly to one way communicate with stranded motorist. They think that works well, hell for ground teams, who needs signal panels anymore?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 03:56:38 PM
I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft. We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works. We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles. Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams? Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off. An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs. They would never even need to land! We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF. I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional.
Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt. Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking.
We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 04, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 03:56:38 PM
I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft. We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works. We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles. Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams? Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off. An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs. They would never even need to land! We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF. I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional.
Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt. Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking.
We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.
A key point is in the beginning, when we respond we don't know if it is a crash or not, injuries or not, a flase alarm or not. The fire departments run with lights and siren to fire alarms and almost all of those are false. We usually would not be responding to a known "located" crash.
The delay in activating CAP is almost always the responsibility of the AFRCC. They're the ones that wait for many hours before getting us involved. Once we're involved we get going and get the job done.
But, we are first responders. We're not the only ones out there, but for some SAR missions we are. However, lights aren't necessary for the type of first-response missions we do.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 01:45:07 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 04, 2007, 01:16:20 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 03:56:38 PM
I see where Oregon Wing has been experimenting with load speakers and sirens in their aircraft. We have had lights and sirens on our ground team vehicles too.
This is not new for law enforcement aircraft either, simply it works. We need FLIRS, night vision and sirens in all of our aircraft and vehicles. Why won't the AF let us screen some used equipment for our aircraft and ground teams? Letting our members drive with lights and sirens would get them faster and safer to the crash sites and airports to turn the ELTs off. An aircraft could fly over an airport and remote hangers and make announcements for everyone to check their ELTs. They would never even need to land! We could recruit members from security guard companies that already have emergency light to join CAP and teach them how to DF. I think this would help increase our membership too as well has making CAP look more professional.
Unless you are headed to a crash site with known injuries (and even then, since EMS will be on the way), lights and sirens arent going to do you any good and for those people who have not taken EVOC (Emergency Vehicle Operators Course) the tendency to drive faster and "looser" when going Code 3 makes no sense for us, will send CAP insurance sky high and get our people and other hurt. Its a known fact, coming from well-researched studies among the EMS community, that more injuries occur when running "hot" than when not. I think we've had this conversation before on this forum and the consensus was that there isnt any reason to be going lights and sirens except that its fun and I can tell you from experience of doing it on a regular basis, it can get pretty nerve racking.
We dont have any ambulances or fire apparatus. As for flying over an airport with a loudspeaker, well that just seems like a needless practice that would sort of generate the kind of atmosphere that we would sort of like to avoid. I mean its not like all the pilots are sitting around in the pilots club sipping martinis and theyre going to saunter out in the middle of the night to check their ELTs because some other pilot in a plane flies over and shouts at them. Doesnt really make much sense, ie isnt necessary and I dont really think that an MP flying over and shouting "This is the Civil Air Patrol, please check your ELT" is going to eliminate our necessity to land or check the thing by ourselves. We were dispatched to it and still, as far as I know, have to find it so... Also, as a way to increase membership, your going to get siren monkeys who like the flashing lights and the fact that a car MIGHT get out of the way as you get an extra 10mph on the way to a scene...not safe, doesnt make sense and like I said, we dont by and large have personnel who are trained in the driving of a vehicle running code three. Here's a test: take your van out into traffice and get it up to about 75mph, then when somebody gets in your lane, lock up the breaks. If you can control the vehicle, you can go to EVOC school and try to learn to do it with squad cars, fire vehicles of all sorts and ambulances. Nothing like having 5 or 6 tons of vehicle pile up behind you every time you touch the breaks. Not worth it. We are emergency services, but not the kind of emergencies that require code 3 driving or that need the kind of members that are attracted to shiny lights and loud noises.
A key point is in the beginning, when we respond we don't know if it is a crash or not, injuries or not, a flase alarm or not. The fire departments run with lights and siren to fire alarms and almost all of those are false. We usually would not be responding to a known "located" crash.
Could you quote your source that "most" fire alarms are false. As someone who often responds with fire fighters, a good number of fires are called in and not dispatched by alarm.
Call you local fire department and police department. The stats are much like ELTs. Many departments will no longer allow direct reporting of alarms to a 911 point of dispatch, instead they require all alarms go through a 3rd party alarm company to be verified prior to dispatch. This cut down the volume of false alarms by not the percentage by much. The number of actual burglar alarms that were related to an actual break in (vs employee accidental activation, housekeeper etc.) in our area is 97% false, fire alarms actually related to a fire in a dwelling where the occupant was unable to extinguish the fire (where there was a fire) or caused by burnt food, closed flue from a fireplace, steam from a shower, spider in a sensor etc. 94% false, add waterflow (sprinkler) alarms, it takes the false alarm average up to 98% false.
Now ELTs are 96% false (1 in 25 real) police and fire respond quickly, why shouldn't we?
The AFRCC in fact does screen most ELTs by waiting for two passes or calling the local FBO first. If the didn't, are false alarm rate would be higher too.
Based on the information in the post, I think I will talk to my Congressman about changing the method in which Fire Departments and Police are dispatched. I think it should go something like this (modeled after the "CAP Designated Emergency Level Yellow"
Someone calls in to the fire department stating that an alarm is going off at 5th and Maple. Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 1, "Hey can you take it..." "No sorry, we're too tired", Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 2, "Hey can you take it..." "Nope past my duty day", Dispatch calls Battalion Chief 3, "Hey can you take it..." Sure.. Chief calls station 1 "Are you available.." "No just got back from one..." Chief calls station 2, "Can you go out" "Yeah, but give us about an hour, we're sitting down for dinner... "OK" chief says... Engine arrives on scene to smoldering ash... "Where's the fire?"
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 03:28:48 AM
Call you local fire department and police department. The stats are much like ELTs. Many departments will no longer allow direct reporting of alarms to a 911 point of dispatch, instead they require all alarms go through a 3rd party alarm company to be verified prior to dispatch. This cut down the volume of false alarms by not the percentage by much. The number of actual burglar alarms that were related to an actual break in (vs employee accidental activation, housekeeper etc.) in our area is 97% false, fire alarms actually related to a fire in a dwelling where the occupant was unable to extinguish the fire (where there was a fire) or caused by burnt food, closed flue from a fireplace, steam from a shower, spider in a sensor etc. 94% false, add waterflow (sprinkler) alarms, it takes the false alarm average up to 98% false.
Now ELTs are 96% false (1 in 25 real) police and fire respond quickly, why shouldn't we?
The AFRCC in fact does screen most ELTs by waiting for two passes or calling the local FBO first. If the didn't, are false alarm rate would be higher too.
Again, what I asked for was a citation for those numbers, because they still seem high to me and as for fire alarms, do not square with my experience. I called the Chief this morning of one of the fire departments that I do EMS with. He said that in our town of less than 50,000 people, so far the month of July, only four days old so far, has seen 10 requests for assistance by the county 911 dispatch center after a citizen call or the receipt of an alarm signal or contact by a 3rd party monitoring center for said alarms. He reported to me that of those ten calls ranging from fires in residences, to automobiles to dumpsters to a recent industrial fire, only 2 were false alarms, bringing the percentage to 20 for false alarms and not 98. Fires which can be managed by the person who calls do NOT classify as false alarms. Fire departments would be reckless to tell people do not call us if you think you can fight a fire with a fire extinguisher. A home fire doubles in size for every minute it burns. But again we have gotten off track by comparing apples to oranges or in this case, ELT signals from AFRCC to fire alarms or request for service.
I think you missed the point I was making...I am talking about electronic fire/burglar alarms vs. alarms that the fire departments run on. Most electronic fire alarms as well as burglar alarms are false activations.
The point is we treat ELTs as electronic distress alarms vs. a voice "MAYDAY".
We treat these as a low priority alarm...a code 50, when available, no lights or sirens vs. a code 70, immediate response, no lights or siren or a code 90, lights and sirens. Why should we assume an ELT is just another false activation vs. a possible distress aircraft. We have let people die because of that. I have seen aircraft crash and go missing just off the end of a runway in an urban environment and wait till morning before we have investigated it. That's wrong, lazy and stupid!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:05:08 PM
I think you missed the point I was making...I am talking about electronic fire/burglar alarms vs. alarms that the fire departments run on. Most electronic fire alarms as well as burglar alarms are false activations.
The point is we treat ELTs as electronic distress alarms vs. a voice "MAYDAY".
We treat these as a low priority alarm...a code 50, when available, no lights or sirens vs. a code 70, immediate response, no lights or siren or a code 90, lights and sirens. Why should we assume an ELT is just another false activation vs. a possible distress aircraft. We have let people die because of that. I have seen aircraft crash and go missing just off the end of a runway in an urban environment and wait till morning before we have investigated it. That's wrong, lazy and stupid!
Which makes me think you have missed my point. "lights and sirens" generally subtract less than 2 minutes from travel time, in traffic. Without traffic of course, as in a rural setting, they really serve no purpose whatsoever. There are also cases where lights and sirens, even in a code 3 (EMS) response can cause more trouble than they are worth when balanced against the possible hazards of "running hot."
Also, if you were watching an aircraft when it "went missing" off the end of a runway, did you activate other emergency services besides CAP and if so, why not. Also, when a plane is witnessed going off the end of a run way, how missing can it be unless the runway was an aircraft carrier and the plane took water and went to the bottom. Also, lights and sirens headed toward an emergency is a very different situation than 24 hours before a response was even initiated and indeed different from your other circumstances in which a "hot response" would be warranted. Im not trying to be rude or confrontational, but you seem to keep changing the parameters, here. Our definition of emergency services vs police/fire/EMS is very different and there are cases where it is wise to wait until day light to initiate a search. I still dont understand how a plane goes off the end of a runway and "goes missing." And you keep saying MOST, which indicates a majority, but dont say on what facts and figures you base it. At least I could site an anecdotal conversation I had with the chief of a volunteer fire department. I dare say its been awhile since you have been around volunteer fire departments. It is not at all an uncommon occurence that a volunteer fire station is not even manned and that the volunteers have to be toned out from wherever they happen to be in the fire protection district in which they volunteer which brings them either to the station in POVs and then out on the FD trucks or directly to the scene in POVs, the latter becoming more and more common, especially in non-urban areas or smaller communities.
Missing off the end of a runway where the aircraft lost power and crashed without being witnessed is what I am talking about. The aircraft is within a half mile or so of the airport an in the woods. Many consider this an "urban" mission and we should wait till morning to investigate it since the SARSAT shows it near the airport. The FBO can hear the signal but has no DF capabilities. To ignore this call for help is no different that a fire department ignoring an call fr help from an electronic (fire) alarm. The Coast Guard ignored a mayday a few years ago off of Florida, near an urban area. Boats don't sink there...right? They ignored it until morning when surfers found the boat and 3 dead bodies on the beach. How much did that cost the USCG in money and reputation? Yes planes do go missing and crash off runways in urban areas and we need to get off our butts and respond like emergency services workers are expected to do. As for stats, I talked to our city manager, town or 50,000 in a county of 300,000, per his stats, FBI index stats and NFPA stats... they are all in the Ball park. Our city received tens of thousand of dollars in fines for false alarms last year, and our safety center dispatches will not take "direct" alarms. They must be screened by an alarm company first where they call the occupancy first. This cuts down on the volume of the calls but again, not the percentage.
Last year, fire alarms (again..just the electronic smoke/heat detectors)
584
22 were unattended food/closed flues on fireplaces
2 fires, property damage less than 10,000$$
560 were accidental, mal functions
95% were deemed false, 4% deemed useful 1% deemed property saving
Burglar/armed robbery/panic
2662
6 were actual robberies less than 1%
88 were deemed improper use of an alarm Classified as false
34 stopped or prevented a crime/robbery/theft 1.5 %
Total false alarms 97.5
Our police department will not respond to car alarm since they would cause a huge burden on the city unless it is a LOJACK or TELETRAC or a witnessed break in to the car.
Those are the facts, help that I know the City Manager, Police and Fire Chief too. BTW, I was on a volunteer fire department and reserve police office and these stats are right in line with my experiences. Just like ELTs, 96% are false, but 1 in 25 are real. Should we take that chance?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Quote from: sarguy on July 05, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.
A typical mission in DC wing went like this:
0100: IC gets the call.
IC calls 2 or 3 GTLs and organize 3 to 5 person Ground Teams.
0200: Call IC "hey, we've gathered, where do you want us".
IC tells us to go to so and so general area and try and get a DF hit.
Call the IC, "we got nuthin, boss"
IC says to go do some ramp checks at the local airports and call him back.
0500: Call IC with "yep, found it at Manassas airport, we notified FBO, see ya at the meeting"
At what point did we need lights and sirens?
Was there even a known location to respond to?
Who has been to the 40 hour EVOC course?
What insurance covers the use of running "Code 3"?
Did parents sign a hold harmless waiver to allow their kids to ride in a CAP vehicle going "Code 3"?
I have personally seen grown adult ground team members/leaders show up to a mission with a fighting knife upside down on their LBE and strapped to their ankle. I have seen grown adults show up with sniper badges because they said they were a sniper in the Marine Corps (the weren't). I have seen grown adults show up with a machete strapped to their black pistol belt while wearing black leather biker gloves and their sleeves rolled up. I have seen grown adults show up in a Saturn with CAP seals taped to the doors of their car because the car wasn't metal so the magnets wouldn't stick. I have seen grown adults whose highest level of medical training was "Standard First Aid" but they had the Blackhawk S.T.O.M.P. pack filled with more medical gear than an ambulance. I've seen grown adult senior members show up, on 4th of July with 100 degree temps plus humidity ready to find a "missing plane" that weigh in at 300 pounds only to end up as a heat casualty and evacuated to the hospital. I saw a grown adult senior member who was the IC and buddy of the fat guy who let him head into the woods weighing that much knowing he was a risk, but did it anyway because they were buddies.
So, these are the people you want running code in CAP vans, or worse, in their POV Nissan Sentra? How many accidents and injuries do we already have just driving in "admin mode"? More than we care to talk about I'm sure.
No thank you, you can keep your lights and sirens and strap them to your plane.
Quote from: Stonewall on July 05, 2007, 02:22:54 AM
A typical mission in DC wing went like this:
0100: IC gets the call.
IC calls 2 or 3 GTLs and organize 3 to 5 person Ground Teams.
0200: Call IC "hey, we've gathered, where do you want us".
IC tells us to go to so and so general area and try and get a DF hit.
Call the IC, "we got nuthin, boss"
IC says to go do some ramp checks at the local airports and call him back.
0500: Call IC with "yep, found it at Manassas airport, we notified FBO, see ya at the meeting"
At what point did we need lights and sirens?
Was there even a known location to respond to?
Who has been to the 40 hour EVOC course?
What insurance covers the use of running "Code 3"?
Did parents sign a hold harmless waiver to allow their kids to ride in a CAP vehicle going "Code 3"?
I have personally seen grown adult ground team members/leaders show up to a mission with a fighting knife upside down on their LBE and strapped to their ankle. I have seen grown adults show up with sniper badges because they said they were a sniper in the Marine Corps (the weren't). I have seen grown adults show up with a machete strapped to their black pistol belt while wearing black leather biker gloves and their sleeves rolled up. I have seen grown adults show up in a Saturn with CAP seals taped to the doors of their car because the car wasn't metal so the magnets wouldn't stick. I have seen grown adults whose highest level of medical training was "Standard First Aid" but they had the Blackhawk S.T.O.M.P. pack filled with more medical gear than an ambulance. I've seen grown adult senior members show up, on 4th of July with 100 degree temps plus humidity ready to find a "missing plane" that weigh in at 300 pounds only to end up as a heat casualty and evacuated to the hospital. I saw a grown adult senior member who was the IC and buddy of the fat guy who let him head into the woods weighing that much knowing he was a risk, but did it anyway because they were buddies.
So, these are the people you want running code in CAP vans, or worse, in their POV Nissan Sentra? How many accidents and injuries do we already have just driving in "admin mode"? More than we care to talk about I'm sure.
No thank you, you can keep your lights and sirens and strap them to your plane.
Good job! But I can top that, I saw a cadet with a firearm on his waist concelled! Yes we need lights and sirens (see Colorado Wing Cadet busted) so the troopers can pull these guys over and bust them! BTW, I tried to mount a magnetic light bar to the belly of my plane but it wouldn't stick, so I used duct tape!
...because the one thing CAP airplanes don't have enough of is parasitic drag.
Stonewall-
if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.
I wasn't really blasting anyone in particular. In fact, I admit that I didn't read the entire thread, just glazed through it while trying to get my son to go to sleep in the midst of fireworks going off. I am just very much against lights and sirens in CAP and to whom ever wants them, that was who my post was directed towards. Right or wrong, that's how I did it.
Edit: And I did happen to read your post where you talk about shaving less than 2 minutes off response time using lights/sirens. So yes, I did know that you weren't advocating the use of the lights, etc...
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 02:33:02 AM
Stonewall-
if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.
Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 02:38:38 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 02:33:02 AM
Stonewall-
if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.
Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?
Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.
Quote from: Stonewall on July 05, 2007, 02:39:32 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 02:38:38 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 02:33:02 AM
Stonewall-
if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.
Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?
Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.
Since you are from FL WG, what percentage of your members do what percent of the missions. In CA, a dozen seem to do almost all the missions. How about you guys?
I have no clue who does what. I'm rather inactive right now, but at my squadron there are at least 10 or more people who respond almost on a daily basis. Our squadron has more missions than most wings or regions, even.
I'm fully qualified for everything on the ground to include EMT. But just moving down here last year, having a baby, and working a rotating shift as a police officer, I just don't have the time to volunteer right now. Plus, I don't much care for cadets' attitude these days.
Quote from: Stonewall on July 05, 2007, 02:48:32 AM
I have no clue who does what. I'm rather inactive right now, but at my squadron there are at least 10 or more people who respond almost on a daily basis. Our squadron has more missions than most wings or regions, even.
I'm fully qualified for everything on the ground to include EMT. But just moving down here last year, having a baby, and working a rotating shift as a police officer, I just don't have the time to volunteer right now. Plus, I don't much care for cadets' attitude these days.
Undertsand...won't ask about cadets...good luck on the new job.
Quote from: Pylon on July 03, 2007, 04:50:05 PM
The lights and sirens bit as it relates to CAP use has already been discussed a bit in this thread (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2136.0).
A quick summary of my take on the cons against lights and sirens for CAP vehicles:
- Adds a lot of liability to CAP, Inc. and will increase CAP's vehicle insurance rates substantially
- CAP van drivers do not have emergency vehicle driving education necessary to understand how to properly operate such a vehicle
- CAP Regulations (specifically CAPR 77-1) prohibits CAP vehicles from having and using sirens of any form and also prohibits lights of any color other than clear and/or amber. Even then, if your state doesn't allow you to have clear or amber lights, CAP says you better not even do that.
- Laws vary from state and state and may not even allow agencies like CAP to operate as emergency responders to begin with
- But the most effective argument, I think, is that it's not needed. CAP Ground Teams are not first responders. We do not provide Emergency Medical care, we do not provide protection, law enforcement, or other first responder services. ELTs are not so urgent to shut off that we should risk the lives of our members and members of the public to get there a few minutes sooner. In addition, CAP is not set up for rapid response anyways; it generally takes us an hour or two to mobilize an aircrew or ground team.
In my opinion, it's just not a wise idea. I think amber lightbars and maybe directional arrow sticks in the rear are nice additions to CAP vans for visiblity purposes when stationary. When parked along side a road, around a blind curve or over a blind hill, or in an otherwise potentially dangerous spot, it's nice to have that added visibility.
In addition, a PA horn (not a siren) could be a useful addition to CAP vans for some situations. Examples may be CAP volunteering for crowd control at large events, or trying to attract the attention of a lost hiker in the woods, etc. That would have useful applications.
I just don't see any benefit to CAP that outweights the list of detractions to warrant any type of warning device while en route, regardless of the mission type. If it's that urgent of a call, be assured legitimate first responders will also be answering the call.
The average time time saved with the use of audible and visual warning devices is 43.5 secs. (1)
1. Hunt, R C MD FACEP; Brown, L H EMT-P. Is Ambulance Transport Time with Red Lights and Sirens Faster than Without. Annuals of Emergency Medicine April 1995.
http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm (http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm)
The risk versus benefit isn't there.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 02:45:31 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on July 05, 2007, 02:39:32 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 02:38:38 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 02:33:02 AM
Stonewall-
if you look closely, you will see that I am the one advocating AGAINST the kinds of "hot" responses. There is NEVER a reason why we need lights and sirens. It would help if you address your posts TO someone instead of blasting no one on particular.
Don't want to make your night worse...did you see the Colorado Cadet story on the news?
Yes, in fact, you can read what I wrote about it in that very thread.
Since you are from FL WG, what percentage of your members do what percent of the missions. In CA, a dozen seem to do almost all the missions. How about you guys?
That CA figure is way off. It's probably closer to three dozen, at a minimum. Some folks might only get out a couple of times a year, depending on location. I'm not going to go through all the traffic from the last year, but that seems like a better figure.
Quote from: flyerthom on July 05, 2007, 03:48:52 AM
The average time time saved with the use of audible and visual warning devices is 43.5 secs. (1)
1. Hunt, R C MD FACEP; Brown, L H EMT-P. Is Ambulance Transport Time with Red Lights and Sirens Faster than Without. Annuals of Emergency Medicine April 1995.
http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm (http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/ambulancetransporttime1.htm)
The risk versus benefit isn't there.
When I was on the VFD, I was often asked to help train new members. My advice to them was "When you get a call, move quickly but not in a rush. Walk around the truck once, making sure that all doors are closed, tires aren't flat etc. Drive like a sane person to the scene, especially if you're responding in your POV; always obey the speed limit. When responding on a medical, be sure to turn your siren off before you get close to the house; a patient doesn't need the excitement, especially if they're having cardiac issues. Avoid getting jacked up on adrenaline so that you can be the calming influence in what can often be a chaotic situation; the few seconds you use will be more than made up for with a better and smoother response."
I see no reason why even if we are in an urgent situation, we shouldn't treat it the same way. If it is a true life-threatening medical emergency, the patients will probably be dead anyway by the time we get notified, locate, and get to the scene. Those extra few seconds in responding sanely will not kill anyone, but they will A) Lessen the chances of our people being involved in accidents. B) Keep us from looking like a bunch of Grade-A USDA-certified whackers and C) Ensure that when we do get there, we aren't so hyped up that we do or say stupid things.
Yellow lights or strobes are great for visibility, but lose the idea that we're on an emergency-response mission and just get the job done.
The lights are good if we have to park near a right of way, and for use on the flight line. That's it.
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 12:58:26 AM
Quote from: sarguy on July 05, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.
Duh Yes I am in CAP...and I know CAP has SQTRs for specialties, form 5's and 91's, STAN/EVAL etc. Those are minimum standards, just like BLS and Red Cross first aid. CAP minimums are the levels that most of our members achieve. Most MRA (that's Mountain Rescue Association) and other organized and sponsored teams (IE. those that are recognized teams utilized on a regular basis by local, county, state and federal government) have minimus that far exceed CAP standards. Every team that I have been involved with (except CAP)required EMT and recognized and followed other national search and rescue standards. CAP standards are typically well below our peers, we have no fitness or age standards. Weekly meetings, call outs, weekend training was the norm as with most teams. Thousands of dollars in personal equipment and so on. Now ask a average CAP member that wants to get involved in SAR and he would refuse to do any of that training. Professional??? As far as picking who will rescue or recover me... local or state laws and MOU's will dictate that and as in many areas it will exclude CAP...if you don't know why, let me know.
Now I really question your loyalty. As a medical professional and rescuer you have VIOLATED a fundamental rule not to discriminate against ANYONE! I have on numerous incidents risked my life saving drunks, druggies, jumpers and just plain idiots that I would otherwise have cared less about. I put any biases aside, to respond to the operation that I was tasked to do and I accepted when I signed up for the job or the mission. It is a real shame to know there are people like you that would turn your back on another rescuer or victim. Military, just as with public safety officers, work as a team and must have the knowledge that if anything goes wrong that your team will without question come to your aid. I hope your "team" knows where you stand.
Quote from: sarguy on July 05, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Thanks SARGUY, I hope you will be around if I crash. What state are you in, maybe I will fly only in that state. When I fly for XXX, we have APRS in all our aircraft and a preplan in the event any of our aircraft go missing. Our aircraft are unable to carry any extra "safety" supplies, we are at gross for a standard day at any elevation. Full tank, Fargo tanks, FLIR, Nightsun, microwave downlink, 4 FM radios, DF, wire cutters, EMS w/ALS and they did the following:
Removed the nice, plush seats and replaced them with mesh seats and put a maximum crewmember weight of 170 pounds in shorts. They allow 20 pounds for boots, flightsuit, sam browne gear, HT and PLB. They make each of us carry a PLB. Why? That is what will find us! Who will find us? I doubt it will be CAP. We monitor 121.5, 243. and 406.025, 028 and 031 at ALL times. My idea, it is now required by SOP. I can't till you the number of times I have df'ed an ELT to an airport where a CAP flight crew was at the airport having just landed and had no idea there was an ELT going. Bad PR and how to you think my crew feels about CAP after seeing that? Several times I have found an ELT going off in a CAP aircraft, once in flight. I keep my mouth shut because when I did say something to their DOS, his response was just that, we are just "volunteers"
Most agencies would give the crew time on the beach. We are just now switching out to dual turbine helos for all beats over 4,000', just for the ability to carry all the extra weight for our various missions. Maybe than we will get a/c and padded seats. BTW, our crews in fixed wing don't carry parachutes but are also required to carry PLBs. You know we are suppose to monitor 121.5 all the time, the look was priceless when our helicopter flew up to the CAPF and tried to tell them to switch to 121.5...no luck. I almost had to scramble the F-16s to get him to land, they just kept waiving "hi". Just volunteers...but good stories.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 06, 2007, 02:44:49 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 12:58:26 AM
Quote from: sarguy on July 05, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS loo... and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training..
Duh Yes I am in CAP..
Pretty positive they were talking to "sarguy" and not you there slick, ease off the throttle.
Edit: Sized down some quotes for Mike :)
Quote from: Becks on July 06, 2007, 03:26:54 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 06, 2007, 02:44:49 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 12:58:26 AM
Quote from: sarguy on July 05, 2007, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 04, 2007, 07:24:21 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 12:12:44 AM
Don't know what big red is...or was. As far as missions as in fires, fires start small at first and grow. When they get big enough, people call the fire department, the siren goes off and the volunteers drop what they are doing and respond...24/7 in minutes. ELTs start the same way, when the AFRCC gets "noticed", they sound the "siren" (CAP) and we do what?
Sounds like most of the wings wait several hours before they can find an IC and than several hours more before they get resources to respond. Now it is 12 hours plus before the average wing responds. Ever heard of the "golden 24 hours for survival" for aircraft victims? We want to be called the USAF Aux and look like the USAF, why can't we act like professionals? Does it concern anyone that flies that it will take at least 12 hours before searcher begin to look for use and another 12 plus hours to find us? I say carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone and a life insurance policy if you expect us to find us...and survive!
We do not "Scramble."
Yes, if you fall out of the sky, you may be down for 12 hours before anyone even STARTS looking for you. Maybe a little less if you filed a flight plan, but expect 24 hours before rescue.
That's why I, and every smart pilot carries survival gear when flying cross country or over terrain that is inhospitable. That SHOULD be a part of your external AE program... pilot survival education.
I carry:
Water, one MRE, 2 smoke grenades, a flare pistol and about a dozen or so flares, a knife, a leatherman kit, water purification tablets, matches, a poncho, a signal mirror, a whistle, a bottle of Jack Daniels, nylon stockings, condoms, and a .45 caliber pistol.
I carry a survival kit, file a primary flight plan with a buddy that has a helicopter (coincidentaly in CAP) and a secondary flight plan with my spouse. And in the remarks I put "DON'T CALL CAP, CALL THE SHERIFF!!!" I would like to be rescued before I turn into a meal for the wild animals. But wait "We're all volunteers!" What a BS line. Ninety-some percent of ALL search & rescue agencies are volunteer. And to top it off, they require a minimum participation and have standards of training. Wow, what a concept....
God bless the USA....
Guessing your not in CAP or you would know about the standardization of its GT SAR members in terms of training. You might want to let the AFRCC know you dont want us to look for ya. Ill be happy not to. Also, you dont have any say so over who comes looking for you, so, be a good little boy, stay with your wadded up plane and try not to do anything stupid. We'll get to you.
Duh Yes I am in CAP...and I know CAP has SQTRs for specialties, form 5's and 91's, STAN/EVAL etc. Those are minimum standards, just like BLS and Red Cross first aid. CAP minimums are the levels that most of our members achieve. Most MRA (that's Mountain Rescue Association) and other organized and sponsored teams (IE. those that are recognized teams utilized on a regular basis by local, county, state and federal government) have minimus that far exceed CAP standards. Every team that I have been involved with (except CAP)required EMT and recognized and followed other national search and rescue standards. CAP standards are typically well below our peers, we have no fitness or age standards. Weekly meetings, call outs, weekend training was the norm as with most teams. Thousands of dollars in personal equipment and so on. Now ask a average CAP member that wants to get involved in SAR and he would refuse to do any of that training. Professional??? As far as picking who will rescue or recover me... local or state laws and MOU's will dictate that and as in many areas it will exclude CAP...if you don't know why, let me know.
Now I really question your loyalty. As a medical professional and rescuer you have VIOLATED a fundamental rule not to discriminate against ANYONE! I have on numerous incidents risked my life saving drunks, druggies, jumpers and just plain idiots that I would otherwise have cared less about. I put any biases aside, to respond to the operation that I was tasked to do and I accepted when I signed up for the job or the mission. It is a real shame to know there are people like you that would turn your back on another rescuer or victim. Military, just as with public safety officers, work as a team and must have the knowledge that if anything goes wrong that your team will without question come to your aid. I hope your "team" knows where you stand.
Pretty positive they were talking to "sarguy" and not you there slick, ease off the throttle.
The only way to shut down a turbine is to kill the fuel!
(or never kick a man when he is down ;) )
Ok guys the quote chaining is getting very annoying. Stop abusing the Reply with quote.
what are you talking about? :)
SARPilotNY-
You may question my loyalty all you like. I said just let us know if you dont want us to come look for you as a statement of sarcasm because you said you would rather have other, more qualified teams than CAP (the one you chose to be a member of) come look for you.
What you may not do is question my professionalism. Being an EMT is a huge part of what I am for CAP, regardless of restricting regs, etc. Its the way I serve. I help to keep my team members healthy. I put bandaides on cuts and mole skin on blisters and perform more advanced first aide when it is called for. So far, my friend, I have yet to hear you offer one genuine suggestion. Your posts are full of the kind of vitriol that I have so far only heard from CAP members who have been around for 30 years, talked a big game but had neither the committment or capacity to carry it through. I have worked with SAR teams in just about every climate there is except the arctic. Ive helped to heal those hurt in air crashes and lost when they wandered from their campsite on a holiday weekend. As a first responder, I helped carry bodies away from ground zero and as an EMT I waded through raw sewage to deliver medical care in New Orleans. I am currently working on my masters degree to be able to start to help sort out this necessarily new era of emergency services we live in. In one post you are a physician, in one you deliver pizzas. Neither of these matters because what you clearly are is a malcontent and a rabble rouser. I refuse to be baited by you any further and think that as a CAP member you should be sickened not just at those of us who have responded to you by sinking to your level, but also by yourself...you, who plays to the lowest common demoninator among us. You, who has nothing but criticism and not so much as a molecule of it constructive. Yes. you may question my loyalty if you wish. But dont you ever question my committment. I serve my community and my country proudly, Sir. I care for people every day that you wouldnt cross the street to spit on. I just came home from a 24 hours shift where I lost 3 patients. But the 36 that lived are better off because me and people like me were there to tend to them when they called. So dont you ever question me, sir, or anyone of the other, dedicated and devoted CAP members of this forum. Perhaps you are a frustrated old pilot, whose big mouth and lack of action never got him very far in CAP. But dont you go insulting these other fine men and women who would lay down their lives for their fellow citizens, sir. You have not earned that right and judging by the way you behave, you never will.
Just to sent the record straight...
I never said I deliver Pizza, that was someone else.
I said I was just an under paid doctor.
As to my qualifications, I am not a burned out, has been. I am current and active in both my CAP life and professional life. I was part of a strike team that responded to 9-11 but never made it to the big dig and to Katrina, and only supported it from 300 miles away. In CAP, I bet ( and I will) that I have responded in numbers and percentages to more missions than 99 % of our members, more finds, saves, ELTs, and that is just CAP, not my other job. Again, enough said. The issue here is what drives our folks to do, or not to do with lights and sirens. The cadet from Colorado, and, btw, his mother is also in CAP, is an example of what is wrong here. Throw lights and sirens on the cars and we get more and the wrong kind of members. Guns? More members! NASCAR...well that didn't work, and thank god! It's not about merit badges...or numbers, or is it? SAR MED TECH.... I work with you guys all the time, maybe I even worked along side you and you would not have even noticed. And I mean that. I don't wear my awards on my uniform because that is not what drives me. When I see the work product of the volunteer EMS & FD folks, I am always amazed. Some on a shoe string budget, 6 hours a week of training and round the clock watches. Than there are CAP volunteers. We have some great folks and than ...well again, you know. As before...quality, not quantity.
SAR MED TECH...you have a great heart in the right place...if you ran as many calls as you said the other shift...lay off the caffeine and get some sleep...and keep up the good work. P.S. as an intern, we had to do 600 hours on the streets, I learned in a busy house that that would kill you over time. Some handle it, most don't. I was lucky, I had a choice to work in a low volume environment but still had opportunities to keep my skills up. I have seen folks burn out...not a pretty site, remember, seniority has it's privileges.
I work those kinds of shifts essentially 52 weeks a year, which alot of people in my profession do.
As far as the Colorado kids with their lights and sirens, that wasnt a CAP vehicle, which is key here. You cant really apply what some stray cadets have chosen to do to what is the case with the whole of CAP. That being said, we dont do anything that needs lights and sirens. Should we ever add an EMS component, then its a whole different story.
As for guns-
While that was sort of jokingly discussed here recently, I dont think there need be any concern that you will see CAP officers with side arms anytime soon.
Re lights and sirens: I have taken two emergency vehicle operators courses totaling something like 100 hours. The first was just driving and being able to control a vehicle that size (between 3 and 6 ton depending on the type of ambulance) and the other was code 3 driving and let me say that the course makes a huge difference. First, it imparts a confidence in driving that size of a vehicle at speeds of 75-80 miles an hour and I can definately tell when someone hasnt had any training. Their more hesitant, it takes them longer to make a decision and when the lights and sirens do come on, forget it...Ive been the driver and the right hand seat in high speed situations and quite frankly when someone doesnt have formal training, you can feel it and it even becomes harder to navigate for them because they panic and dont take directions as well.
CAP just doesnt need lights and sirens. Thats all there is to it.
Nope, no lights n sirens.. Only I can have the gun!
Actually the only lights I would accept would be the flashers AFTER the vehicle is at the scene and is PARKED. This only helps with visibility and safety.
THink about it. How much time is actually saved running hot? Let's see I get a call while at work. I run hot.. Let's see 10 miles? At 60 MPH I get there in 10 minutes. At 80MPH I get there in what 8 minutes? The risk is too high for 2 minutes.
Also too, generally for the type of things we would be called out on, it'll be hurry up and wait. You get there and then what?
We don't handle Emergencies like car accidents, etc.. so again o need for the hot run.
Quote from: 2d Lt FAT and FUZZY on July 06, 2007, 07:47:36 PM
Nope, no lights n sirens.. Only I can have the gun!
Actually the only lights I would accept would be the flashers AFTER the vehicle is at the scene and is PARKED. This only helps with visibility and safety.
THink about it. How much time is actually saved running hot? Let's see I get a call while at work. I run hot.. Let's see 10 miles? At 60 MPH I get there in 10 minutes. At 80MPH I get there in what 12 minutes? The risk is too high for 2 minutes.
Also too, generally for the type of things we would be called out on, it'll be hurry up and wait. You get there and then what?
We don't handle Emergencies like car accidents, etc.. so again o need for the hot run.
The figures need a little work. 60 mph = 1 mile/min; 10 mi takes 10 min. 80 mph = 1 mi/.75 min; 10 mi takes 7.5 min.
The idea, however is exactly right.
As far as the Colorado cadet goes...like in many wings, member owned vehicles are the norm on missions...even having them and or using them can drag CAP into the mud. I am not against warning lights in general but once you let the cat out, it seems it becomes a competion for who has the most bling bling. I have seen a $3000 LED full length bar, corner strobes, grill and deck lights on a member owned vehicle that didn't even have a 40 watt VHF radio or df. What are his priorities and who will top him? These are the guys that show up at the air shows but not for the missions...go figure! Sar Med... Should these be considered early warning signs or risk factors?
Quote from: SarDragon on July 06, 2007, 08:28:46 PM
Quote from: 2d Lt FAT and FUZZY on July 06, 2007, 07:47:36 PM
THink about it. How much time is actually saved running hot? Let's see I get a call while at work. I run hot.. Let's see 10 miles? At 60 MPH I get there in 10 minutes. At 80MPH I get there in what 12 minutes? The risk is too high for 2 minutes.
The figures need a little work. 60 mph = 1 mile/min; 10 mi takes 10 min. 80 mph = 1 mi/.75 min; 10 mi takes 7.5 min.
The idea, however is exactly right.
Even when I drove a taxicab in college, we figured it out that at the most you might save 30 seconds on a cross-town trip by driving aggressively and pushing the evnelope.....but at the cost of scaring the hell out of the passengers and risking hitting another car. Our consensus was "Why bother?".
hahaha Ooopppsss... Corrected.
Old thread I know, but here is something funny for Christmas!
...saw this and thought I'd share another interesting picture
CAP car with "siren and lights" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk1qQU836XQ&feature=related)
Thought you might want a laugh...
Warning, these people might still be out there...
/r
yeah I thought that was really funny (The Siren kinda sounded like a car alarm) :D
Quote from: JROB on December 26, 2008, 12:06:54 AM
yeah I thought that was really funny (The Siren kinda sounded like a car alarm) :D
Or an ELT...
Let's forget the lights and sirens stuff. One thing I've learned in 30 some odd years of doing this stuff is DON'T RUSH. Haste does make waste. Don't dawdle but move deliberately. But I wouldn't mind seeing CAP vans equipped with the strobes they are putting on top of school buses for visibilty.
Anyone look at the other videos from this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ibiBAw4kM
Stupid is... as stupid does....
Quote from: Stonewall on December 26, 2008, 02:26:22 AM
Anyone look at the other videos from this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ibiBAw4kM
That was a Michigan Wing patch I just saw. >:(
Quote from: Pumbaa on December 26, 2008, 03:04:05 AM
Stupid is... as stupid does....
You just did Gump a disservice. :(
OMG!!!...HAHAHAHA!....That's terrible!......You're right! Gump was smarter!
As for lights and sirens, I think the amber lights do just fine (for visibility purposes only). There's no need for sirens whatsoever (loudspeakers (not sirens) in certain situations might be usefull though).
I think if you're focusing on response time from CAP, then one should focus on proceedures and work on cutting down the time in which CAP is alerted. It's not fair to "Harp" on CAP getting to a scene 6 hours after an incident, when it took everyone 4 or 5 hours to even make CAP aware of it.
Here in New Jersey GTL is Allow Blue Lights like the Volunteer Fire/EMS as for the vans if we were doing true SAR work or Homeland Security. Maybe if we train and have tight SOP's but Amber is needed for DF for stopping along the road. I drive an Expidition at work with a full police package.
I once had a SAR mission for a over (Downed) experimental Helo. The NJ State Police were escorting us, no lights no siren, Their speeds were greater than 75 mph and I was not comfortable driving our vans that way. I have this same vehicle as a ambulance with extended roof as a back up medic unit,
>:D >:D
Quote from: NJMEDIC on December 26, 2008, 08:14:15 PM
Here in New Jersey GTL is Allow Blue Lights like the Volunteer Fire/EMS as for the vans if we were doing true SAR work or Homeland Security. Maybe if we train and have tight SOP's but Amber is needed for DF for stopping along the road. I drive an Expedition at work with a full police package.
Actually, assuming you have the required
permit (specific in NJ to CAP):
The blue emergency warning lights may be used only when the vehicle is being operated to provide emergency services
during local and national emergencies declared by the Governor of the State of New Jersey. Any other use of the light is prohibited.
This is quoted from the NJ permit application which is also very specific as to placement and quantity (2) of the lights, as well as prohibition of headlight strobes. http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/About/BLC-54A.pdf
So unless NJWG has an MOU with the state that blanket declares them as such, not legal for SAR work, ELT chases, or most other standard CAP activities.
Any kind of rotating/flashing lights (and color) may be regulated in the state you are in so it is best to check with the Dept of Motor Vehicles & Law Enforcement.
I personally think it's a good idea when one is stopped and/or going very slow such as on a DF mission to have additional warning lights (probably flashing yellow and white) as a safety measure. (Some wings have a policy that NO holes can be drilled in corporate vans, so it's either a magnetic mount or some other bar that won't damage the vehicle roof). CAP is not a first responder, so there really is no need for sirens and/or lights blaring/glaring while responding to mission base, advanced mission base, or squadron headquarters for a mission.
It's the law enforcement & fire/rescue wanna bees that has gotten CAP in trouble in the past. That's why there's some regulatory guidance on this.
RM
If stopped on the side of the road to take a reading I have Clear lights in the rear
Quote from: JROB on December 27, 2008, 08:43:22 AM
If stopped on the side of the road to take a reading I have Clear lights in the rear
You might want to check your state's vehicle code to see if that's legal.
In California the only white lights you can have in the rear are back-up lights.
The concern is that you blind drivers approaching you from the rear with the glare.
in Iowa white flashing lights are reserved for EMS
Quote from: isuhawkeye on December 27, 2008, 05:54:07 PM
in Iowa white flashing lights are reserved for EMS
What do the police use? ???
Quote from: JROB on December 27, 2008, 08:43:22 AM
If stopped on the side of the road to take a reading I have Clear lights in the rear
Just a random question, but why is a
cadet using a POV to take a reading of anything?
Quote from: SJFedor on December 27, 2008, 08:21:32 PM
Quote from: JROB on December 27, 2008, 08:43:22 AM
If stopped on the side of the road to take a reading I have Clear lights in the rear
Just a random question, but why is a cadet using a POV to take a reading of anything?
While its probably not a good idea from an ORM standpoint, I can't think of any reason from a reg-standpoint he shouldn't be.
There's no requirement that the GTL be the driver, in fact that's usually a bad idea.
Most of us in my Wing use POV's for mission work, and nothing says a qualified cadet can't drive his own vehicle on a mission,
(assuming the huge exhaust pipe, trunk tail, and kicker box don't get in the way. ;D )
Quote from: sandman on December 25, 2008, 10:47:04 PM
Old thread I know, but here is something funny for Christmas!
...saw this and thought I'd share another interesting picture
CAP car with "siren and lights" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk1qQU836XQ&feature=related)
Thought you might want a laugh...
Warning, these people might still be out there...
/r
What a waste of money... I mean really how much did it cost to put all of that crap in there? That could have gone to such a better place like new uniforms or new UDF equipment or something you know.
Quote from: hatentx on December 28, 2008, 06:37:48 AMWhat a waste of money... I mean really how much did it cost to put all of that crap in there? That could have gone to such a better place like new uniforms or new UDF equipment or something you know.
That was done with personal money I'm sure. A cadet or young senior member with their own money. I'm fairly confident that CAP money wouldn't have funded something like that.
The bottom line I wish I could convey is that responding to an emergency as an
emergency vehicle, is not as easy as throwing lights on your POV. Not that it's a tough course, but 40 hour EVOC training is required by every agency I'm familiar with to utilize
lights & sirens, and then there are protocols and agency policies to follow. There is this thing called
Due Regard. If it is not exercised, you will be held liable
if when you get in an accident while driving code three (with lights and sirens).
Not only training, but insurance. Are you insured to operate with lights and sirens? Does insurance have guidelines for amber lights?
It takes practice and familiarity with the environment in which you operate "code 3". As a Police Fielt Training Officer, I saw every recruit get tunnel vision an I'd have to quickly remind them to breathe, open their eyes and talk their way through the process of responding to the call at hand. I have personally seen a cop fly through a red light, even after training, without checking for other traffic. Luckily, and I'm talk "thank God", no one else was coming. He says he doesn't remember going through that intersection.
So here's the deal. Bad things happen to veteran EMS and Law Enforcement professionals every day while they're responding to calls for service. Could you imagine a CAP volunteer with very limited experience, no training and full blown tunnel vision to shut off an ELT? As a volunteer firefighter that wore "DRIVER" on my helmet and then as a cop and FTO, responding to calls or even having emergency lights on CAP and member owned vehicles is nothing I'm willing to advocate.
Amber flasher for ID purposes, fine. But the minute you spend more than what it costs to throw a magnetic roof-mounted strobe on your car, you're out of line.
naw I get it being personal money but if they are willing to spend it on lights for their car for CAP the it could as easly be spent on something worth while
Quote from: Stonewall on December 28, 2008, 01:38:51 PM
The bottom line I wish I could convey is that responding to an emergency as an emergency vehicle, is not as easy as throwing lights on your POV. Not that it's a tough course, but 40 hour EVOC training is required by every agency I'm familiar with to utilize lights & sirens, and then there are protocols and agency policies to follow. There is this thing called Due Regard. If it is not exercised, you will be held liable if when you get in an accident while driving code three (with lights and sirens).
Not only training, but insurance. Are you insured to operate with lights and sirens? Does insurance have guidelines for amber lights?
It takes practice and familiarity with the environment in which you operate "code 3". As a Police Fielt Training Officer, I saw every recruit get tunnel vision an I'd have to quickly remind them to breathe, open their eyes and talk their way through the process of responding to the call at hand. I have personally seen a cop fly through a red light, even after training, without checking for other traffic. Luckily, and I'm talk "thank God", no one else was coming. He says he doesn't remember going through that intersection.
So here's the deal. Bad things happen to veteran EMS and Law Enforcement professionals every day while they're responding to calls for service. Could you imagine a CAP volunteer with very limited experience, no training and full blown tunnel vision to shut off an ELT? As a volunteer firefighter that wore "DRIVER" on my helmet and then as a cop and FTO, responding to calls or even having emergency lights on CAP and member owned vehicles is nothing I'm willing to advocate.
Amber flasher for ID purposes, fine. But the minute you spend more than what it costs to throw a magnetic roof-mounted strobe on your car, you're out of line.
+1
And I've made a living doing it for going on 19 years.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on December 26, 2008, 04:43:53 AM
OMG!!!...HAHAHAHA!....That's terrible!......You're right! Gump was smarter!
As for lights and sirens, I think the amber lights do just fine (for visibility purposes only). There's no need for sirens whatsoever (loudspeakers (not sirens) in certain situations might be usefull though).
I think if you're focusing on response time from CAP, then one should focus on proceedures and work on cutting down the time in which CAP is alerted. It's not fair to "Harp" on CAP getting to a scene 6 hours after an incident, when it took everyone 4 or 5 hours to even make CAP aware of it.
I almost think we should get something on the first SARSAT hit. Not a real alerting but a "Hey, do you know where your gear is? And don't go out to the bar yet" call. Then again I might change my mind after getting about 20 of those a day.... I don't really know what else we collectivly could do to improve response times.
Personally, I want to (and given that work and the squadron are on base, and home's 45 minutes away should) have my gear on me all the time. Other then that I really don't know. Ideas?
Quote from: MikeD on January 03, 2009, 09:51:50 AM
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on December 26, 2008, 04:43:53 AM
OMG!!!...HAHAHAHA!....That's terrible!......You're right! Gump was smarter!
As for lights and sirens, I think the amber lights do just fine (for visibility purposes only). There's no need for sirens whatsoever (loudspeakers (not sirens) in certain situations might be usefull though).
I think if you're focusing on response time from CAP, then one should focus on proceedures and work on cutting down the time in which CAP is alerted. It's not fair to "Harp" on CAP getting to a scene 6 hours after an incident, when it took everyone 4 or 5 hours to even make CAP aware of it.
I almost think we should get something on the first SARSAT hit. Not a real alerting but a "Hey, do you know where your gear is? And don't go out to the bar yet" call. Then again I might change my mind after getting about 20 of those a day.... I don't really know what else we collectivly could do to improve response times.
Personally, I want to (and given that work and the squadron are on base, and home's 45 minutes away should) have my gear on me all the time. Other then that I really don't know. Ideas?
Don't take this negatively, but why exactly do you feel the need to radically improve your response time? Are you getting left behind?
Quote from: JThemann on January 03, 2009, 09:05:08 PM
Don't take this negatively, but why exactly do you feel the need to radically improve your response time? Are you getting left behind?
Just once
Out of how many missions?
Uhh, 2. So you can look at it as a pretty poor ratio, I like to think of it as "missing one for a stupid reason isn't that bad :) "
OK, it takes you time to get your gear to be ready for a mission ( I'm sure you can make room in your vehicle for the basics...can't you?). But, that wasn't even the purpose of the comment I've made......The basis of the comment was, how much time has passed even before CAP was informed of the situation.
If something happens, and it takes an hour before someone reports it, then the authorities take an hour to bring it to the next level, then they take an hour trying to figure out what to do, you're allready looking at 3 hours past the incident and CAP might not have even been thought of yet.
Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ).
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 03, 2009, 11:00:11 PM
Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ).
That would be the CAP equivilant of an EMS agency jumping a call.
We DO NOT self activate, ever. Things have a process that they need to go through that are up in the "echelons above reality". Us self activating jeopardizes our FECA/FTCA status, as well as any credibility we may have with other agencies.
Wow.....diggin' one up from 2007. Someone tell Doc Brown his time traveling DeLorean got stolen......
See.......told ya'
How bout not representing CAP.........Just doing it as a caring individual..........The whole standards on which CAP started!
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 03, 2009, 11:00:11 PM
Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP until later ).
I can
almost guarantee if you do that you would be subject to disciplinary action up to, and including, membership termination.
You would also be subject to arrest by local authorities as you would have absolutely no authorization to be on scene.
Not to mention the "wannabe" label that will be stuck to every CAP member in that area thanks to the "positive" contacts.
Like every response organization, we have rules and policies, they protect us
and our customers. Like the best fireman, we come when called, and if not called, prepare for the next time.
Want to be called more? Look around at the agencies that are called up more for local situation - PD / FD Auxiliaries, Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc.
You want to wander on a DR scene as a "caring individual"? Knock yourself out, but leave every piece of gear, clothing, and ID that could identify your connection with CAP, and don't even hint at your affiliation - that way you will still be subject to arrest, but at least you can stay a member until you're actually convicted.
I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"
You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 04, 2009, 12:47:16 AM
I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"
You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"
You don't "show up".
You don't "tell them" anything.
You don't get involved unless you are called up.
Period.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 03, 2009, 11:00:11 PM
OK, it takes you time to get your gear to be ready for a mission ( I'm sure you can make room in your vehicle for the basics...can't you?). But, that wasn't even the purpose of the comment I've made......The basis of the comment was, how much time has passed even before CAP was informed of the situation.
If something happens, and it takes an hour before someone reports it, then the authorities take an hour to bring it to the next level, then they take an hour trying to figure out what to do, you're allready looking at 3 hours past the incident and CAP might not have even been thought of yet.
Then again, I've seen a lot of regulation hounds here who would probably know something is going on that they can gear up, get to, and help representing CAP, but they don't because they haven't been instructed to. I can almost guarantee you, if you did, it would only be positive for CAP (maybe that's why no one thinks of CAP untill later ).
What I was trying to say made sense last night... I kinda forgot what my point was so I'll shut up and hide in the corner now.
I found this at on the State of Michigan web Site.
Are volunteer firemen insured while traveling to and from a call in their personal vehicles?
A volunteer fireman that is involved in an automobile accident while responding to or returning from a call must first look to his or her personal auto insurance for coverage. The Pool will provide coverage for volunteers, but only excess of their personal insurance.
The Named Insured (city, village, etc.) always will be covered by the Pool on a primary basis if named in a suit for damages resulting from an auto accident involving a volunteer firefighter.
Gads ZOOTS: I am finding similar statement made in every state that I looked at, Delaware for example pays $500.00 / month if disabled on a fire.
Oh yes support your government, your better off being a banker or corrupt Loan officer.
On paper we (CAP) have Platinum coverage
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 04, 2009, 12:47:16 AM
I'm not talking about just going out on your own!!!!! I'm talking about showing up at the scene on your own and asking if you can be of some help, stating that you're a CAP member and had training (whether you're in uniform or not).
Or, are you just going to sit there and wait for orders, or tell them, " You know, I can help and have been trained to do so, but you have to go through the proper channels so I don't get in trouble!"
You regulation people think too much "in the box!!"
Wrong wrong, wrong, wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong wrong.
You just said two different things about showing up on a scene uninvited.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but you must have no real experience in the emergency field. That's exactly what happens.
Do I buff calls? No.
Do I stop if I see a car accident on the side of the road? Yes.
Do I spot if I see an accident on the side of the road, or if we get flagged down? Yup, have to.
However, if I show up to a scene in my EMT uniform off duty, I'm subjecting myself to a lot of problems.
If you wanna show up to look for little Becky who got lost in the woods, that's fine.
However, if you wanna play CAP, you have to play by the rules. That inculdes not being able to self activate.
So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.
I'm stopped and asked (or call when I've heard) about a reported person missing in the woods around here. But, I don't dare mention that I'm in CAP, and been trained in SAR. God forbid I ask if there's anything I can do to help.....RIGHT?
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 04, 2009, 03:09:45 AM
So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.
Deal with it, or quit.
We're part of a volunteer organization. You can't just show up in a uniform to an incident and expert to pontificate about your extensive experience in wilderness SAR or whatever.
You're a civilian volunteer, I'm sorry to break that to you.
You call it thinking 'inside the box,' I call it 'effective scene management."
If you look at the World Trade Center incident, there was some problems after the first few days with volunteers showing up and freelancing.
Also, lets not forget the most important thing. The number of incidents where this happens is statstically zero.
Just stay home. Your local emergency service agencies have specific procedures that they train on, and have preplanned for incidents in the community. The last thing they need is someone getting in the way, no matter how good their intentions are.
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 04, 2009, 03:24:31 AM
Just stay home. Your local emergency service agencies have specific procedures that they train on, and have preplanned for incidents in the community. The last thing they need is someone getting in the way, no matter how good their intentions are.
Best reply ever.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 04, 2009, 03:09:45 AM
So, that doesn't make us very efficient "volunteers", and it very well doesn't make us "civilian volunteers" since we need "orders" to act in a situation when we can help right there and then.
I'm stopped and asked if I've seen a woman reported missing in the woods around here. But, I don't dare mention that I'm in CAP, and been trained in SAR. God forbid I ask if there's anything I can do to help.....RIGHT?
Rob, I understand what you're saying here, and I understand your frustration. However, don't confuse the term "volunteer" with "people who show up to offer help".
Myself, and many others, consider CAP a form of professional volunteerism. We're not the "volunteers" you see in a hospital working a gift shop. We're volunteers in the same sense as a volunteer firefighter/EMT, where we have specialized training, and are expected to execute jobs the same way as our paid counterparts. We're a force multiplier.
If you're stopped and asked if you've seen the woman, by all means, answer the question. But telling the person asking you really isn't going to be of any use anyway, as the person doing the question asking is almost certainly not the incident commander, and wouldn't be the appropriate person to solicit our capabilities to. Any type of solicitation like that, if it's to happen at all, should be done by your Wing Director of Emergency Services, Director of Operations, or Wing Commander, and that type of solicitation is usually done PRIOR to an event, not once one has happened.
For example, no doubt that everyone heard about the small dam/levy that broke in East Tennessee, which held back dirty water from a coal plant. CAP was used to fly a few aerial imaging sorties for the state. We didn't call them and say "hi, do you need our help?" because the Wing has done the job of already making our presence and capabilities known to them beforehand. Therefore, they went through the process of requesting a mission (which really isn't that complicated once there's a State MOU in place, usually a few phone calls, less than an hour, and a mission number is issued) and we provided them with many pretty pictures.
I would highly recommend you read chapters 6 and 7 of CAPR 60-3,
CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions, as this will answer a lot of your questions.
Just like how a fire department doesn't roll out of station just because they see smoke, even if it's just to say "hi, we're here, need any help?", until they're dispatched by their county dispatch office, we don't go until we've been dispatched by the appropriate agency.
It's the burden of being a professional volunteer. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's how the world works.
I'm not talking about showing up in uniform. I'm talking about offering help as a trained civilian. There were some teenagers lost in the Niagara river for a whole week before they found the bodies floating offshore because they couldn't cover enough area (yeah, the officials handled that one great!!!)
Don't even bring up 9-11, because if it wasn't for our "open door" policy, all these foreigners coming through Canada, and the aircraft schools catering to foreign students, it wouldn't have happened (those guys came through Canada, and had flight training in Florida).
October 2003 in Reston, VA. A family 5 houses down knocks on my door asking if I've seen their elderly grandmother; she wondered off while they were at the store for about 45 minutes. I hadn't seen her but I suggested calling the Fairfax County Police, which they did.
FCPD passively placed patrol cars at nearby intersections thinking they'd see her crossing the street. There are 65 miles of paved trails in Reston, 90% of which are heavily wooded with creeks, streams and 3 very large lakes; all walking distance from the last known location of the elderly lady.
In front of my house was my squadron van, clearly marked with the CAP seal. A police officer asked me if we were searching and I said no, we hadn't been called. He looked at my like I was joking. I had gotten on my mountain bike and began riding, but after the conversation with the cop decided to at least call the Wing CC who was one of our ICs. He told me it was VAWG jurisdiction and they hadn't been called. The duty lieutentant made several attempts to try and call out CAP to no avail and gave up. I had already contacted my entire squadron and sister squadron in anticipation of being "activated". I got a very rude call from some old hag from VAWG who demanded I stand down and stop trying to be a cowboy. FINE!
I sent everyone home, most of them in disbelief and mad at me for not fixing the breakdown in the system. We already had a plan to send "scout teams" to do hasty searches along the creek beds and head to the 3 lakes within a mile or so of our location (my house). Bud again, I was ordered to stand down. THAT WAS MY PLAN OF ACTION HAD WE NOT BEEN GIVEN A SPECIFIC TASK.
2 weeks later they found the woman dead along the bank of one of the very lakes we would have searched. The cops sent a couple (actually 4) bicycle cops to do some hasty searches along the paved trails and got nothing. I actually feel like we should have been sued.
Not sure how this relates to lights and sirens, but it isn't the first time we drifted on a topic.
CDC NIOSH Self dispatched volunteer (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200213.html)
NAEMT (http://firechief.com/news/naemt_katrina_09012005/)
Self dispatch slows patient care, increase death toll of emergency responders during 9/11 (http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:L1B9fTlPEh0J:www.aameda.org/MemberServices/Exec/Articles/spg03/freelance-%2520Green.pdf+Self+dispatched+Volunteer+killed&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=49&gl=us&client=firefox-a)
Self dispatching hinders 9/11 operations - JEMS (http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/Lessons_Learned_From_9_11.html)
Slef dispatched volunteers and sight seers can put themselves and othersin harms way (http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/TRIC/tbi_triccn_files/08.31.05.pdf)
Quote from: flyerthom on January 04, 2009, 04:29:42 AM
Several links to "self dispatch" articles.
TC - I agree 100%. I'm not sure if you were referring to my post above yours, but in my case the "incident" knocked on my front door. I was asked if we were on the search because my squadron van was in front of my house where it was being kept (temporarily) and the officer assigned to be with the victim's family knew about CAP. He notified his lieutentant that we were available and after about 2 hours of trying to figure out how to request CAP's support, they gave up because it was too much of a hassle.
I disagree with VFDs allowing volunteers to respond in their POVs
to the incident site. I'm still a little flexible on responding to the station to pick up an apparatus, but don't think that's the best answer either.
I am the only EMT on the property in which I work, but we have year 'round life guards who are DOT First Responders and live for responding to emergencies. On Monday of this week we had a 63 year old man die in one of our pools. Although more qualified medically, I stayed away from the scene and let the life guards do their job. I was basically an IC liaising with county EMS, SO and our own personnel. Same thing goes for "drive by's". I have stopped at a lot of accidents, but I will not go out of my way to be a "hero". I have a scanner for work and CAP, but I do not listen to EMS calls and try to beat the ambulance so I can feel good about myself.
There should absolutely be a process by which to request CAP's services, but in the event that an MOU has not yet been established, perhaps a streamlined "emergency procedure" should be available for situations like mine above.
Sorry, probably just venting as I am still bitter about that one...
This is another reason NIMS ICS training is so desperately needed. In both my ICS 300 and ICS 400 classes they covered the problem of self-dispatching extensively. Play by the rules or stay on the porch.
In Emergency Management, there are two basic categories for volunteers - organized and unorganized. Organized are those folks who volunteer with an agency - Red Cross, VFD, CAP, ARES, ad nauseum. Unorganized are the folks who show 'just wanting to help'. Both have their place.
John Doe walking in off the street is not likely to find himself doing more than handing out consumables. John Doe with ARES, once they've been activated, will be in the thick of things.
Quote from: Rob Sherlin on January 04, 2009, 03:45:26 AM
I'm not talking about showing up in uniform. I'm talking about offering help as a trained civilian. There were some teenagers lost in the Niagara river for a whole week before they found the bodies floating offshore because they couldn't cover enough area (yeah, the officials handled that one great!!!)
Don't even bring up 9-11, because if it wasn't for our "open door" policy, all these foreigners coming through Canada, and the aircraft schools catering to foreign students, it wouldn't have happened (those guys came through Canada, and had flight training in Florida).
You wanna play ball, you gotta play by the rules.
I had similar experiences with Law Enforcement and Fire Dept. in missing person searches. Law Enforcement is more passive on searches and relies on their K9 units. I have tried to at least push these groups to take NASAR missing person training but as always monies for training is the problem they are paid Dept's.
QuoteThere should absolutely be a process by which to request CAP's services, but in the event that an MOU has not yet been established, perhaps a streamlined "emergency procedure" should be available for situations like mine above.
All they need to do is call the NOC and follow it up with an email or faxed letter requesting support. The tricky part is phrasing the request in the right way so that it can get AFAM status.
I'm not planning to go against the rules, I just think they need to work on them a bit where CAP can be of better service and not just forgotten about untill 6 hours after an incident when someone says, "Oh yeah!....Those guys!...They do searches!"
If you read Stonewalls post....That totally sucks! His squadron could have made a big difference on whether that woman survived or not. But, we'll never know in situations like that, because by the time the officials go through the proper channels (if they can get a hold of anyone), and it comes back to the squadron level with an answer (yay or nay), you've allready lost a lot of time. Yet, we wonder why we don't get "activated" for such things more often......Why bother if it takes that long to contact anyone, and the answer is going to be no anyway!
Maybe they just figure the later the better because it's easier to find a person after they're dead so they're not wandering.
One phone call and/or email/fax. NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2009, 03:02:12 PMOne phone call and/or email/fax. NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that.
I'm not sure they were so streamlined in 2003, though.
Quote from: N Harmon on January 04, 2009, 03:12:11 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2009, 03:02:12 PMOne phone call and/or email/fax. NHQ can't possibly streamline it any more than that.
I'm not sure they were so streamlined in 2003, though.
I called my wing CC who called someone in VAWG. I got a number to call in VAWG and gave it to the Police Lieutentant who called said number. He got nothing but a run around, a lecture on policies and how CAP is dispatched through AFRCC.
I don't know that NOC was fully operational then but it were that easy, I would like to think it would have worked.
Well, if we're talking about 2003, that is probably a different matter. There was a period in the early 2000s when the AF lawyers had totally screwed up just about all existing local MOUs and other procedures for being called by the locals. That fiasco seems to have led to the current system where it really is easy.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2009, 04:43:05 PM
Well, if we're talking about 2003, that is probably a different matter. There was a period in the early 2000s when the AF lawyers had totally screwed up just about all existing local MOUs and other procedures for being called by the locals. That fiasco seems to have led to the current system where it really is easy.
I know we've gotten off topic, but my "story" was about a situation that happened in 2003. It may be on page 5 if you didn't see it.
If the local agencies don't know about your unit's capabilities, availability, and SOP's for requesting and paying for CAP resources, that is a failure of your local unit's ESO, as well as rest of the chain, for not pushing those relationships.
I also think you're pushing an ad hominem argument about your own, personal, risk tolerance and willingness to act versus the regulations of a structured, professionalized volunteer force.
My CAP abilities and equipment don't have an on/off switch - in times of "unpleasantness", I am buoyed by the fact that I know I am more prepared and trained than my neighbors, and will likely become a neighborhood resource if the poop ever really hit the fan, but that doesn't mean I pull to the side for every car with flashers, or run out the door to chase sirens.
It also means I am more frustrated than my neighbors in situations where I know I could have helped, but was not called - just like every Policeman / Fireman / Paramedic / Airman / Soldier / Sailor / Marine / Guardsman, etc., in the history of history, watching the news when they know they could help.
In cases short of Katrina and the WTC, you don't solicit "business" for your agency during the emergency. The ICS structure onscene doesn't have the ability to reasonably decide if they can / are allowed to use you, and likely already have a written contingency to do whatever it is that you would do, and your name isn't on it.
After things cool off, you request a meeting with the players and explain how you could have helped. If they aren't interested, you move on, either up their chain, or out to someone else who can use you. If your AOR has a second situation where CAP could have helped, but they still don't know your name, that's your unit's fault (or the chain), not CAP, Inc.
As to what you do on your own dime - don't know, don't care. It isn't even relevant to this conversation. But when you involve CAP in any way, you're no longer as "private" a citizen as you might think.
Quote from: Stonewall on January 04, 2009, 05:46:09 PM
I know we've gotten off topic, but my "story" was about a situation that happened in 2003. It may be on page 5 if you didn't see it.
And with that...