CAP Talk

If you had a 'unlimited budget' what would you put in a CAP Comm truck / trailer?

Either you are bored, or someone just got very lucky.

A sign: "NOTICE: Code words are against regulations. Keep UA personnel out of here. That is all."

another sign that lays out the meaning of "roger", "wilco", "over", and "out"; and why they shouldn't be used together.  Maybe even a threat of electrocution if they are..

Lets get one of these:
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m170.php3
American Made. Military styling. Back country ready. Cool factor that the Comm/Command trailer/buses/campers
don't have.

I have no idea if it is best for technology. But, its cooler by a mile. Even the  black bears would be intimidated. And if they're not  or they are
grizzlies then throw one of these in the mix... an MRAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaxxPro_in_Iraq.jpg

We'll need a card with a high credit line to run through the gas in the MRAP.

Im serious guys.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rescue 286;
Sorry. I was being cheeky. Here's the top of the line FEMA set up.
http://www.fema.gov/emergency/mers/mrvdex.shtm

It's a full TV Broadcast set up - which was used at the gulf oil spill. Obviously they didn't need emergency broadcast capability but used it to make production items (like graphics and maps) for briefings and distribution media. It was parked at Houma the 2 weeks I was around there.

Obviously we don't need anything like this... it is just the top of the line and out of the box. So anything less should still think about piggy backing this kind of mobile infrastructure.

Unlimited funds and just throwing them at it .. but whats it going to be used for? In reality. Parking at a planned "incident" is one thing. How "first responder" does it need to be?

A workstation/desk setup for a computer/printer to get (topo) maps, but in FL.. you might be better off with a map depicting bridges across every water way. ;-)

Radios, and a checkbook to write checks for things we really need.

For the most part, comm trailers are an unnecessary waste.  I know, I have an ICP trailer with radios, redundant power, and a huge PITA sign.

We call it the Albatross for a good reason.

Four VHF radios, two HF radios, six handhelds on mounted chargers, enough liaison radios to talk to anyone you want, headsets for all radios, television, satellite internet, satellite/cell phone tied into a PAX, SDIS downlink setup, propane generator, air conditioning, independent server to service shared files and printers, on-board dedicated laptops, and LCD status boards.  And if you want to get fancy, a kitchen and enough sleeping space for about seven crewmembers.  At least that's what we have on ours  :D  Granted, this is a mobile command center and not a comm trailer; but if the budget is unlimited, dream big!

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v12/155/103/52500144/n52500144_30005483_8867.jpg)

As an added perk, consider making all of your cabinets and walls out of dry erase board.  Its what we have in our comm room at base and it rocks being able to write anywhere you want.

Sorry man, the above is exactly what we don't need.

In addition to the fact that we could equip 4-5 SUV's and trailers with equipment for what that beast cost, it requires a specialized crew, and in many cases is too expensive to drive to the AO.

It is too fancy and inappropriately scaled.

I'd take a brick and mortar facility over a mobile one any day of the week.  But since we are gypsies without so much as a reliable meeting place, I'd take that mobile command post in a heart beat, or even the "Albatross."   ;)

But it's got a lightbar!! ;-)

Lets say that we just got a $400,000 federal grant to build a mobile command vehicle.   That the main purpose is for disaster response.

My vision is that it would be able to pull up to a non-existent or damaged facility and provide  Phone, Radio, Internet...etc.

It would also be able to be self sufficent to provide command, control, and communications in the middle of nowhere after a disaster.

CAP Comms:
6 VHF
2 HF
2 Airband

I/O Comms:
800 mhz Multinet (Motorola Smartzone, Motorola Astro, EDACS, P25 Trunking)
UHF hi
UHF Low
VHF Lowband
Amateur Radio   2m/70cm/HF
Dispatch consoles w/  patching capability  (Telex -IP Based)


Satellite based internet w/ Auto deploy dish
Voip PBX system (Asterisk)
several Cellular lines (ML500)

VTC capability

Cache of VHF portables

Internal File Server
IMU Server

4.9ghz mesh WLAN

At least 4 internal positions for Incident Dispatchers
Conf Room for planning/Command staff

Redundant 12k generators

Gally / Lavatory...

Thoughts?

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 25, 2010, 12:29:57 AM
Lets say that we just got a $400,000 federal grant to build a mobile command vehicle.   That the main purpose is for disaster response.

My vision is that it would be able to pull up to a non-existent or damaged facility and provide  Phone, Radio, Internet...etc.

It would also be able to be self sufficent to provide command, control, and communications in the middle of nowhere after a disaster.

CAP Comms:
6 VHF
2 HF
2 Airband

I/O Comms:
800 mhz Multinet (Motorola Smartzone, Motorola Astro, EDACS, P25 Trunking)
UHF hi
UHF Low
VHF Lowband
Amateur Radio   2m/70cm/HF
Dispatch consoles w/  patching capability  (Telex -IP Based)


Satellite based internet w/ Auto deploy dish
Voip PBX system (Asterisk)
several Cellular lines (ML500)

VTC capability

Cache of VHF portables

Internal File Server
IMU Server

4.9ghz mesh WLAN

At least 4 internal positions for Incident Dispatchers
Conf Room for planning/Command staff

Redundant 12k generators

Gally / Lavatory...

Thoughts?

It's missing an Xbox 360.

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 24, 2010, 08:55:17 PM
As an added perk, consider making all of your cabinets and walls out of dry erase board.  Its what we have in our comm room at base and it rocks being able to write anywhere you want.

I have seen a few ES Mobile Command Posts outside of CAP and they all have this.  It is definitely an excellent idea!  The guys I've talked to love it.

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 25, 2010, 12:29:57 AM
Lets say that we just got a $400,000 federal grant to build a mobile command vehicle.   That the main purpose is for disaster response.

My vision is that it would be able to pull up to a non-existent or damaged facility and provide  Phone, Radio, Internet...etc.

It would also be able to be self sufficent to provide command, control, and communications in the middle of nowhere after a disaster.

CAP Comms:
6 VHF
2 HF
2 Airband

I/O Comms:
800 mhz Multinet (Motorola Smartzone, Motorola Astro, EDACS, P25 Trunking)
UHF hi
UHF Low
VHF Lowband
Amateur Radio   2m/70cm/HF
Dispatch consoles w/  patching capability  (Telex -IP Based)


Satellite based internet w/ Auto deploy dish
Voip PBX system (Asterisk)
several Cellular lines (ML500)

VTC capability

Cache of VHF portables

Internal File Server
IMU Server

4.9ghz mesh WLAN

At least 4 internal positions for Incident Dispatchers
Conf Room for planning/Command staff

Redundant 12k generators

Gally / Lavatory...

Thoughts?

Rescue, what you have here is almost EXACTLY what our MCC is save for a couple radio differences.  If you want, I can put you in contact with our unit managers to perhaps get you some info.  I'm on the crew for it but I don't have all the back-history on acquisition/design.

Here's one of our county SAR team's command posts which was donated to the team by the sheriff's office. The cabinets are designed to be written on. The walls are a tempting place to write, but they're textured  :( , so if they are written on, it's hard to get the writing off easily.

Radios before final installation on the left side. The shelf was added. The front of the shelf keeps articles on the shelf from sliding off and hides the radio wiring. There are two VHF, one 800 and a dual band ham radio all accessible from the right seat. There is another VHF and 800 in the cab. The left seat is for a computer operator. There are 3 overhead cabinets above the shelf, and two floor to ceiling vertical cabinets to the left of the left chair. The five overhead cabinets are on the right side aft of the door. The writing was still on the cabinets when it was donated.
(//img%5D%20%5Bimg%20alt=%5Dhttp://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=278)

Right rear. The map board is on top of the enclosure for the built in 7 kW generator, the noise of which is not noticeable inside.
(//img%5D%20%5Bimg%20alt=%5Dhttp://captalk.net/MGalleryItem.php?id=275)
Mike

Pardon my laziness for not researching available federal grants, but I would be interested in learning more about the one being pursued. Seems like we all better brush up on our greant request writing skills if that is a real possibility.

It seems like a lot of money for something pretty low on the "things we really need" list.

Quote from: N Harmon on October 25, 2010, 06:27:56 PM
It seems like a lot of money for something pretty low on the "things we really need" list.

I agree, and at the end of the day, you really have a truck with some radios in it and a place to sit - something which can be replicated
with a tent and a go box.

Don't get me wrong, I love pulling up with the Albatross and having people see the professional decals, and looking like the big boys, but
most agencies use their trucks regularly and with funds for upkeep, we don't and we don't have the money for upkeep.

Getting the toys is only the first step - these things need ongoing maintenance and upgrades, and then you wind up with something which either needs a permanent crew, or is loaned out and then not cared for with the same love as the builders.

To the grants - getting a grant at that level requires a nearly full-time effort.

I had an "Airporter" style 24 PX bus given to me by a church. Most of its windows had been shot out, but we replaced the side windows with plexiglass and the windshield with a used one from the auto glass store outside Travis ( Great deals on windows by the way-a typical new Windshield there is less than 175.00 installed) We yanked most of the seats out, and had a cabinet shop build a 9 foot counter-top for a desk. Although it was all done with personal funds from a few S/M's, it was great for doing remote cadet activities as a mobile office and staff bar and grill. As a SAR resource it was pointless, but it was nice to have for activities and transporting lots of gear. We had to get rid of it since there was no place to park it, and it was too old to be accepted by CAP as a formally donated vehicle. The Forest Service has it now......We had a VHF mobile radio, an Inmarsat phone, and a laptop computer and printer, all running from deep cycle marine batteries charging off the vehicle power. Crude, but effective.....

Major Lord

Couldn't we do the vast majority of what we need for comms on even the most intensive of missions using a small trailer for storage, a generator, and a command tent? In fact, that seems like a preferable option because there's a smaller footprint when not in use and it's way more versatile (you could get it up narrow roads behind a truck that RVs would be way too wide to go up)

We use the Albatross for encampment and air shows, etc., it looks pretty nice (from 30 feet0, but also has the downside of giving the
impression that it is a "typical" vehicle in CAP - then a member gets to the "real" squadron and finds they don't even have a radio, let alone an MCP trailer.

Did you have to have a CDL to drive a buss in your state?  Our requires that.

This is the other issue with these vehicles - everyone assumes the "guy" who can drive it will always be around.
A 12-15 pax van with a 12+ foot trailer is not something you average CSM is going to be able to just hop in and drive, same goes for the
RV's and more specialized vehicles.

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on October 25, 2010, 06:54:03 PM
Couldn't we do the vast majority of what we need for comms on even the most intensive of missions using a small trailer for storage, a generator, and a command tent? In fact, that seems like a preferable option because there's a smaller footprint when not in use and it's way more versatile (you could get it up narrow roads behind a truck that RVs would be way too wide to go up)

Yep - even the trailer is unnecessary - just a nice, go-box and an igloo-sized generator, which I have now seen for like $100 (yeah, I know they are junk).

The trouble is that people don't build for the "real one", they build for the "big one", I've done it myself, which results in lots of gear we never use.  The reality is that most small missions, even DR, can be run out of a decent SUV or CAP van, and the bigger ones usually have FEMA or other support and infrastructure onsight.

CAP does not need to bring much in themselves.

Yet another thing that I have to find and get together.  When I did wing comm stuff, the wing DOK was feeling inspired and wanted a proposal for comm vehicles.  I did an outline and collected a set of pictures.  I will try to find it.  I've got a ton of crap that I want to find for people.  I keep thinking that I'll get to it soon and then get caught up in doing something different - mostly for work. 

My philosophy behind this type of vehicle was and would be to make it as multi-purpose as possible so that it could be used as a command vehicle, just for comm, or whatever depending on the mission. 

One resource that I used when I did this was looking at what hams do.  I'd look for some ham projects online and see how they might apply.  The other thing (that I hadn't considered before) would be maybe using Arduino (open source hardware) as a platform to build some cool stuff that could be very useful.  If you have people who are good with homemade electronics, that could be a great way to go.  I also remember looking at Instructables.com for ideas.  I'm not sure if I came up with anything.  I'll try to get cracking on finding all these files so they can actually be useful.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 06:58:52 PM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on October 25, 2010, 06:54:03 PM
Couldn't we do the vast majority of what we need for comms on even the most intensive of missions using a small trailer for storage, a generator, and a command tent? In fact, that seems like a preferable option because there's a smaller footprint when not in use and it's way more versatile (you could get it up narrow roads behind a truck that RVs would be way too wide to go up)

Yep - even the trailer is unnecessary - just a nice, go-box and an igloo-sized generator, which I have now seen for like $100 (yeah, I know they are junk).

The trouble is that people don't build for the "real one", they build for the "big one", I've done it myself, which results in lots of gear we never use.  The reality is that most small missions, even DR, can be run out of a decent SUV or CAP van, and the bigger ones usually have FEMA or other support and infrastructure onsight.

CAP does not need to bring much in themselves.

You make a good point. If we're worried about being equipped for "the big one", an MOU with FEMA or a state/local EMA that says "When we have our 'big one', you'll loan us your MCP, and when you have your 'big one', we'll loan you warm bodies, vans, and planes". That doesn't cost us nearly as much as a $500,000 MCP/comm truck and provides the basis for a valuable inter-agency partnership.

Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2010, 07:21:26 PM
One resource that I used when I did this was looking at what hams do.

Living in their mom's basement?   ;D

Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2010, 07:21:26 PM
I'd look for some ham projects online and see how they might apply.  The other thing (that I hadn't considered before) would be maybe using Arduino (open source hardware) as a platform to build some cool stuff that could be very useful.  If you have people who are good with homemade electronics, that could be a great way to go.  I also remember looking at Instructables.com for ideas.  I'm not sure if I came up with anything.  I'll try to get cracking on finding all these files so they can actually be useful.

Using home-grown stuff is dangerous from the standpoint that no one else knows how it works, can repair it, or (usually) replace the function onsite.

Big-button, off-the-shelf stuff is usually better.

I always find it amusing when Comm guys want 12 radios for every spectrum, including HAM equipment, when they know that the odds
of ever speaking to anyone but other CAP radios approaches zero.  Again "just in case".

Quote from: Smithsonia on October 24, 2010, 05:53:09 PM
Lets get one of these:
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m170.php3
American Made. Military styling. Back country ready. Cool factor that the Comm/Command trailer/buses/campers
don't have.

I have no idea if it is best for technology. But, its cooler by a mile. Even the  black bears would be intimidated. And if they're not  or they are
grizzlies then throw one of these in the mix... an MRAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaxxPro_in_Iraq.jpg

We'll need a card with a high credit line to run through the gas in the MRAP.

Do... want MRAP... nothing says "get rescued" like light armor

Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 07:38:25 PM

Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2010, 07:21:26 PM
One resource that I used when I did this was looking at what hams do.

Living in their mom's basement?   ;D

No comment.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 07:38:25 PM

Quote from: JC004 on October 25, 2010, 07:21:26 PM
I'd look for some ham projects online and see how they might apply.  The other thing (that I hadn't considered before) would be maybe using Arduino (open source hardware) as a platform to build some cool stuff that could be very useful.  If you have people who are good with homemade electronics, that could be a great way to go.  I also remember looking at Instructables.com for ideas.  I'm not sure if I came up with anything.  I'll try to get cracking on finding all these files so they can actually be useful.

Using home-grown stuff is dangerous from the standpoint that no one else knows how it works, can repair it, or (usually) replace the function onsite.

Big-button, off-the-shelf stuff is usually better.

I always find it amusing when Comm guys want 12 radios for every spectrum, including HAM equipment, when they know that the odds
of ever speaking to anyone but other CAP radios approaches zero.  Again "just in case".

Nothing I build for my office and such is ever an issue.  I have about 150 volunteers at my organization - most of them old/retired.  We factor this in and always consider simplicity as one of the core elements of designing technology-based solutions.  Our systems work well and help a lot.  The same issues we have apply directly to CAP - a substantial number of older/retired volunteers, the fact that they are volunteers who spend a limited amount of time with us and have other obligations, the necessity for the systems to be quickly learned and applied in order to get people in and set up as quickly as possible, etc.

w00t!  I found some of the stuff that I did before.  I'm trying to cut/paste it into one document, update a couple things, and I'll post it later.  I thought that I had lost it (and a lot of other stuff) because I plugged in one of my external HDDs to look for it and the computer couldn't read it for some reason.  I had a back-up drive, though.

The grant is IECGP  (Interoperable Emergency Communications Grant Program)  Its administered at the State Level.  It has to be used to build interoperability communications systems or training.... I happen to have an inn for my wing to possible get this grant.

90% of federal grants are awarded to the State.  You have to be an active part of the state, and recognized by them to even be considered.

I totally disagree with some who say we don't need such a capability.  First off we try to gain trust and respect from other agencies that we work with.  Who would you prefer to work with, a organization that cobbles radios together in a make shift ammo can, or a real deal professional communications platform that can communicate with all agencies?

What happens after a CAT 4 hurricane and all your CAP facilities are gone?  How do you setup Command and control quickly?

What if you need comm support in the middle of nowhere, were there is no CAP facility?

$300,000 can get us a professional build 24 - 30' command post fully equipped with the comm gear we need.
$100,000 can be reserved for PM and operations.


As a real world - high level public Safety Commo guy, I will say that if we cant talk to the others we work with , we wont have a place in the game for much longer.
We need to be able to talk to our own, plus everyone else. This starts long before the incident.... in a planning and cooperation between agencies.

I will also say that in FL the CAP has on every disaster deployment since '02 had the need to communicate with several different agencies on their freq and systems. 

Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 06:58:52 PM

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on October 25, 2010, 06:54:03 PM
Couldn't we do the vast majority of what we need for comms on even the most intensive of missions using a small trailer for storage, a generator, and a command tent? In fact, that seems like a preferable option because there's a smaller footprint when not in use and it's way more versatile (you could get it up narrow roads behind a truck that RVs would be way too wide to go up)

Yep - even the trailer is unnecessary - just a nice, go-box and an igloo-sized generator, which I have now seen for like $100 (yeah, I know they are junk).

The trouble is that people don't build for the "real one", they build for the "big one", I've done it myself, which results in lots of gear we never use.  The reality is that most small missions, even DR, can be run out of a decent SUV or CAP van, and the bigger ones usually have FEMA or other support and infrastructure onsight.

CAP does not need to bring much in themselves.

Are you kidding me?      "CAP does not need to bring much in themselves."   The problem is we have always "mooched" off other organizations to support us. If we are going to play with the big boys, then we have to be self sufficient!    FEMA only supports themselves.  The MERS detachments WILL NOT support anyone but their own teams...not sure why everybody thinks FEMA is magically going to appear and give us everything we need.  We are continually loosing credability because we have this mindset.  Wake up guys....we have to be totally self sufficient!

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 25, 2010, 08:43:39 PM...we have to be totally self sufficient!

100% incorrect - no one is self-sufficient anymore, and certainly not self-funded volunteers being called in days after the real "poop".

Katrina - camping in the EOC with meals and infrastructure provided by the military and civilian agencies as part of a coordinated effort.
Kentucky - billeting reimbursed at locak hotels, meals and infrastructure provide by the KYNG.

Every major real-world I have been involved in was supported or directed by another agency, with the ARC usually handing a big piece.

We are not a lead agency, we are a tertiary support resource and therefore have no need for self-sufficiency.

Okay, maybe they got their meals provided, but it was worked out before they deployed. We cant go into a situation and expect that we will get everything we need.

Anybody see the Delaware State Wing Commo Truck. The Delaware State Police donated it WOW

I helped set up a bit of the DEWG truck. Not a bad setup, but terribly underused. Just didn't really have the need.  It was only used on one actual SAR that I know of, and only because it happened to be in use as a command post for a special event where the IC was also at. Used primarily as a CAP command post for special events and supported the Middle East Region SAR College a couple times.   As I recall, we actually bought it from the state when they finally upgraded, they didn't donate it.

I posted some info on it way back when... http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=82.0   the photos are gone, but I'll post up some tomorrow.

I have found both in the CAP world of things and in the civilain fire/ems/LE world a ginormous rolling RV command post is a PITA.  It seems that there is never anywhere close enough to the rest of your operation that is convenient to park it.  Or your incident has so many other players that it is not big enough to use as a useful command post.   You dont have enough free help that is qualified to drive it from point a-b-c. And most importantly if your vehicle takes a crap your entire capability is dead in the water

I think that kind of money potential is better spent on developing a deployable and modular/expandable comm/incident management capability.  That way you can set up as a stand alone facility or move things into a hardened/durable site if available.

Things such as preconfigured radio sets, antrenna towers, tents, generators, tables, chairs, dry errrase boards, heating & air conditioning units, light sets, charger banks, portable radios, computers, cots, field stove etc etc.

A transportable vehicle is also an option (like the small U-haul truck...van or pick up chassis) or small trailers (they are easier to tow for the inexpereinced than one of those giant race type) and you can stage them around your area (ie 3 small C3 functions rather than 1 big one all with the same grant money)

mk

Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 08:54:26 PM


100% incorrect - no one is self-sufficient anymore, and certainly not self-funded volunteers being called in days after the real "poop".

Katrina - camping in the EOC with meals and infrastructure provided by the military and civilian agencies as part of a coordinated effort.
Kentucky - billeting reimbursed at locak hotels, meals and infrastructure provide by the KYNG.

Every major real-world I have been involved in was supported or directed by another agency, with the ARC usually handing a big piece.

We are not a lead agency, we are a tertiary support resource and therefore have no need for self-sufficiency.

While, your state and your way of assistence may proclude any portion of CAP being self-sufficient, YOU can not stand on the fact that we are required in some wings to be self sufficent.  So throw that 100% incorrect out, as YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU  are babbling about.  It is written into many area of my operating agreements with the WING I am invovled with that we MUST BE SELF-Sufficient

Cite.

Self-Sufficient is a great theory but an impractical to execute.

Sure you can pack a tent and bring in some MRE's maybe pack a few bottles of water.  But is that really "self" sufficient or marginally acceptable living conditions.

The reason that these agencies provide the best lodging, food, etc possible is to ensure the morale of the responders.  I've never been to anything including real world SAR that the ARC wasn't giving us food and some other local agency wasn't providing hard shelter.  Hard shelter has been anything from the floor at the park visitors center to hotels just outside the AOR.

You should always go in with the expectation of sleeping on the ground and eating your own meals for the first few days but outside of that self sufficient turns to eating out of the Nat Guard Truck or at the fire station or etc.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 04:05:05 PM
Cite.

Not that you can check them.

State of Florida, Standard Operating Procedures for RECON, Page 6, Section III, para C, sub 3 "RECON Teams will be capable of remaining self sufficient for up to 96 hours from deployment time."

Which FLWG is a primary asset partner along with Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission  and Florida National Guard.  As the primary responders.

Secondly the State also supplies training monies and support to accomplish this mission of Self-Sufficiency.  So how I or you would spend that money may differ, It does not mean that we will be housed by, supplied by or transported by any other agency other then ourselfs.  Though there may be other primary asset partners envolved that does not mean that they will also at the location that we are assigned to, so the need for Self-sufficiency is required.

And while you so freq throw out the word "Cite" why don't you Cite anywhere that it states that we "DO not", "WILL NOT" CAN NOT be self-sufficient.

Again, I believe that you operate in a vacuum and may or may not care. Or if you just like to stir out discontent

Yes I believe that it is costly to have utilize and maintain a COMM vehicle, I believe in areas it is be advantagous to have.  Yes to a point I believe that we could accomplish more with limited funds and "GO-pack" 

But, I believe this tread is asking IF you had the money to build, NOT weather it is neccesary to build.

^ Sorry, citing some state regulation unrelated to CAP without anything that ties CAP to it doesn't fly.

I am speaking from practical reality and personal experience.  CAP is not a self-sufficient, first-responder, go-it-alone agency.  Other than ELT searches, we are a secondary and tertiary support agency that becomes part of a greater, already existing framework.

Being self sufficient, or at least not a liability in the field is an asset, but expecting us to be a self-funded, self-sufficient agency as a matter of course is unreasonable, not necessary, and not required.

Feel free to cite any real-world operation you have participated in where you had to deploy self-sufficient with no support from other agencies.  2-hour ELT hunts don't count.  If you didn't stay overnight, it doesn't count.

You signed an operating agreement?

They are referring to food water and shelter in the 96 hour block.  Since we won't be the lead agency we will have to figure out integration and that throws out self sufficiency.  Rolling up and saying "We don't need anything from you" would be the worst logistical situation you could possibly get yourself into.  Saying no thanks from the beginning takes your resource needs to the bottom of the list.

If you walk up and ask where is the potable water, chow line, and quarters someone will point you in the right direction.  If one or all of those is not available that is when you go to plan B and pull out the tents, water bottles, and MRE's.

We have to integrate with the lead agency's communications system so other than command and control of our resources we don't need a big truck.  We can call in a high bird with mobile repeater, or run up a mast with the same equipment.

For SAR and other than DR there is little chance of hard infrastructure being compromised.  For DR there are shelter management agencies.

I don't disagree with having several mission equipment trailers located throughout the wing but having specialized equipment located at one end of the planet or even in the center is probably prohibitive.

A good part of the problem with this conversation is that SAR and DR are simply not the lions share of our operations.

They are a task that we are required to train for and perform but not something that any one can devote enough attention to to make us a viable lead agency.  There are way to many jobs and activities for our members to balance

There are far to many organizations that spend the entirety of their budgets to further their capabilities for response to SAR and DR. 

We are a primary agency for putting planes in the air and in some areas boots on the ground, but at the end of the day we will be doing so on someone else's dollar at their request.

Sooo... we are called out to a DR response  to support lets say a State for a cat 4 Impact.  They have tasked us to conduct ground  Recon of a 100 Square mile area.  We have the manpower, and training  to make that happen.  But then we tell the State that we need, food, water, hotels, fuel, and a whole laundry list of equipment to complete the mission.  If that is the case then why did we even advertise that we conduct RECON ops for them? Why did we accept the mission.  The could call on she Guard, Sheriff, Fish and Wildlife and not have to deal with all the extra crap that we cant do for ourselves.   So what good is CAP in a disaster if we must rely on soo much outside support to compete our mission.

In the Real world I can tell a Sheriff, Fish and Wildlife, or NG RECON strike team to do the same mission. and poof, its done. They handle everything that is needed to support themselves 100% in the field.  PERIOD.

So why are we so different?   It is this mentality why we dont get called upon anymore....

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:25:01 PM
So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

They answer the phone because the support and funding MOU's are already in place and everyone knows where the money is coming from in advance.  No money, no people.  Armageddon aside, PD, FD, and other EMS don't work for free.  In a situation like Katrina, everybody pulls the train, but it was also a windfall of overtime and bankrupted many agencies.

Private contractors won't answer the phone without a PO from the agency requesting assistance, and these days, literally, some will ask for a check on arrival or even cash because so many states are strapped for cash.

Yet CAP is supposed to somehow be a magical self-sufficient, member-funded agency standing in the middle of everyone else getting at least reimbursed?  That's not how it works, and not in our mandate.

Back to the Comm / Command Vehicle...


Soo you have $400,000 to build out a C3 vehicle / trailer...  What would you put in it? And Why? What would be its role in a SAR, Disaster, and in other missions?

Drivers / operators are not an   issue.  Maintenance  will be covered 100% from funds from the grant for the next 5 years.


With that kind of cash would we really cobble something together by ourselves, or have a real contractor build it to our specs to make a professional system?

If a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:31:15 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:25:01 PM
So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:31:54 PMIf a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

Because they use them once a week, not once a year, and they are used within the immediate area they are deployed, not parked 6 hours away from the AO.

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:35:26 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:31:15 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:25:01 PM
So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

The NOC is only concerned with vehicle fuel, mostly for the aircraft, they do not care about member expense, ancillary euipment, or any of the other things needed to be self-sufficient.

Further, a lot of missions these days go without NOC involvement, and with no funding.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:38:50 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:31:54 PMIf a C3 platform isn't practical they why does every Sheriff/Police/SAR/EMS agency have one?

Because they use them once a week, not once a year, and they are used within the immediate area they are deployed, not parked 6 hours away from the AO.

The FLWG Comm trailer is deployed on average of 9 days a month...  Why does yours roll once a year?

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 08:58:17 PM
^ Sorry, citing some state regulation unrelated to CAP without anything that ties CAP to it doesn't fly.

I

Again, if you had the entire document you would see that this is what is required of CAP.  As it is stated in the SOP.  This is related to CAP the SOP is written for CAP, FFWC, and FLNG.  A signed agreement with an organization that you are accepted funding from is just as much part of CAP as is any other document that you want to see.

I have never stated that we are a first responder, I never stated that we are a lead agency.  But you miss the point that there are agency's that respect CAP and utilize CAP.  They know the value of this organization and the benefits.  Maybe your state agency doesn't utilize you do to your mentality or being so frugel So I believe that you would rather cobble together a rinky dink go box to accomplish your mission, and I would spend some money a build something that is a little more professional looking and I am wrong to try to promote a professional image.  Of which you could care less about.

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:40:50 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:35:26 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:31:15 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:25:01 PM
So why are we so different? 

For starters, we work for free.

Not one of those agencies you mentioned is self-sufficient or free - they will either charge back the state, local, or federal agency they work for, or reach for the presidential money when it is allocated.  They will have full logistics teams and divisions that do nothing but restock and
setup the FOB's.

We dont work for free!  If someone requests us they pay for us.  Do you think CAP eats the cost?   NOC will not give us a mission number until payment arrangements with the requesting agency are taken care of.  The only difference is our members aren't paid.

The NOC is only concerned with vehicle fuel, mostly for the aircraft, they do not care about member expense, ancillary euipment, or any of the other things needed to be self-sufficient.

Further, a lot of missions these days go without NOC involvement, and with no funding.

not correct.  NOC handles lodging and perdiem as well.

  If you need ancillary equipment to carry out a request, why did you accept the request in the first place?
This is what Kills us! we accept a mission, then scramble to figure out how to do it, or how to equip our teams to do it.   If you cant complete the mission 100% then why accept it?

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:46:09 PM
The FLWG Comm trailer is deployed on average of 9 days a month...  Why does yours roll once a year?

Your trailer is deployed 108 days a year on actual missions or does that include training?

v/r

Training as well. 

Sooo...how would you equip yours?

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:50:33 PM
Training as well.

How often would you estimate it is used for actual missions?

In the past year...


3 Months for Deepwater

6 Weeks HLS Missions

2 Weeks for actual SAR

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 29, 2010, 09:55:32 PM
In the past year...


3 Months for Deepwater

6 Weeks HLS Missions

2 Weeks for actual SAR

I love it when an ill conceived argument falls apart!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

for those interested in the DE Wing truck... here are some pics (several years old... now has a Wifi network and updated computers)
[smg id=279]
http://captalk.net/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=album;id=31 <- full gallery

One state's unique year does not a program make...

It may be that just having the asset will prove to cause demand for it. It sounds like this one found good use, and our sorry excuse for a mobile office/comm bus came in very handy while we had it. I don't think that having a vehicle that enhances our Comm capabilities is inconsistent with our communications portfolio. What I see in this thread is a very classic CAP loop: One member talks about doing something very cool ( okay, its cool if you are a SAR/COM/Ham Guy at least) and a bunch of naysayers try to cut the life out of his enthusiasm for doing anything innovative in CAP. The "we tried that back in 1967 and it did not work" mindset has crippled us, and left us with antiquated systems, and a dying mission.

That being said, lets revisit the original post, which asked " what you put in a Comm Van given the opportunity?" ( I am paraphrasing) The logical questions is: " What are you going to use it for? In California, I could see it being used as a self-propelled mobile repeater with a small crew on board to keep it running. Our Repeaters have a tendency to blow away, slide down a muddy mountain, or get eaten by wildfires, so I could see its usefulness.

Another possible use is as a command center and resupply vehicle for large area ground team activities. There would be a place for weary GT's to sleep and eat without having to drive all the way back to civilization.

The least likely use it seems to me would be to have CAP members run the Op's and Comm's for a multi-agency large scale response. Some Federal Agencies have more money in their comm vans than CAP has in its budget ( If any of you saw the Comm vehicles at the Federal centers during hurricane Katrina, you will know what I mean) As has  has been discussed, we are also logistically incapable of autonomous activities in disaster areas. We just don't have a way to establish the supply lines necessary to keep ourselves alive beyond a very limited time period. In the opening days of Hurricane Katrina, many of us paramilitary contractors lived on the ground and ate MRE's courtesy of the US Army ( May they live forever in the Halls of Valhalla) and the Red Cross. They have the trucks and the forklifts.

So to refine the original question, What would we/do we use a Comm van for?

Major Lord

Thanks Major

Quote from: Major Lord on October 29, 2010, 11:59:18 PM
What I see in this thread is a very classic CAP loop: One member talks about doing something very cool ( okay, its cool if you are a SAR/COM/Ham Guy at least) and a bunch of naysayers try to cut the life out of his enthusiasm for doing anything innovative in CAP. The "we tried that back in 1967 and it did not work" mindset has crippled us, and left us with antiquated systems, and a dying mission.

+1

Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 09:40:50 PM

Further, a lot of missions these days go without NOC involvement, and with no funding.

I want to know how you think that any mission that you do will go without NOC involvement!!!!!!!

If there is NO NOC involvement you will not recieve a mission number.  No mission number NO mission.  Again, your perception of how things operate is in question here.

Sooo....  Im thinking about a REAL command post.   Like this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55297616@N03/sets/72157625275030706/detail/

This is the State of Florida, Division of Emergency Mgt  Mobile Command Vehicle.  The pics were taken while she was deployed to Pensacola to support Branch 1 for Deepwater.

Something similar to this would be what I would build.

Just remember to reinforce the chassis...

I like your vision.  To the impending naysayers - You're not dreaming big enough, and not trying hard enough.

Cisco & IBM have a pretty cool crisis management truck: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21263.wss

It was in my area being showed off once and I couldn't go see it. I was pretty unhappy to miss it :(

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 30, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
Just remember to reinforce the chassis...

Don't bother reinforcing the chassis - overspec it.

Quote from: arajca on October 31, 2010, 04:08:56 AM

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 30, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
Just remember to reinforce the chassis...

Don't bother reinforcing the chassis - overspec it.

If you are building to the specs that the State of Florida uses, you will not have to do any more then find those specs as that vehicle is already double framed.  There is no need to do anything else to that chassis.

Alright.....So we got the Chassis and platform.

What about the equipment / Capability of the truck?

Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:45:12 PM

Quote from: Smithsonia on October 24, 2010, 05:53:09 PM
Lets get one of these:
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m170.php3
American Made. Military styling. Back country ready. Cool factor that the Comm/Command trailer/buses/campers
don't have.

I have no idea if it is best for technology. But, its cooler by a mile. Even the  black bears would be intimidated. And if they're not  or they are
grizzlies then throw one of these in the mix... an MRAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaxxPro_in_Iraq.jpg

We'll need a card with a high credit line to run through the gas in the MRAP.

Do... want MRAP... nothing says "get rescued" like light armor

There is nothing "light" about the MRAP. You take it off a paved road and the MRAP will need to be "rescued" too. ;)

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 25, 2010, 12:29:57 AM


CAP Comms:
6 VHF
2 HF
2 Airband

I/O Comms:
800 mhz Multinet (Motorola Smartzone, Motorola Astro, EDACS, P25 Trunking)
UHF hi
UHF Low
VHF Lowband
Amateur Radio   2m/70cm/HF
Dispatch consoles w/  patching capability  (Telex -IP Based)


Satellite based internet w/ Auto deploy dish
Voip PBX system (Asterisk)
several Cellular lines (ML500)

VTC capability

Cache of VHF portables

Internal File Server
IMU Server

4.9ghz mesh WLAN

At least 4 internal positions for Incident Dispatchers
Conf Room for planning/Command staff

Redundant 12k generators

Gally / Lavatory...

If you ae only talking about the Comms gear, I would add 1-2 Marine radios do to the fact that we work so much with USCG.
I would also make sure that at least one of the HF radios is ALE>
I would must sure that your Internet Sate is minimum of 1.2 m

If you are talking the entire unit on top of the comms gear.
• Roof mounted light tower
• (3) Mast
• (4) forward dispatch positions
• 8 - 20" LCD monitors
• Wilsonart "Hard Surface" counters
• DSS
• Interoperability solution
• Tandberg conferencing
• Plotter
• Cisco phone system
• Audio & Video package
• (2) 42" plasma w/Smartboards
• (4) 32" LCD monitors
• Computer connections at passenger
position
• Galley
• Conference room seat (5)
• Wilsonart "Hard Surface" counters
• 1.2M satellite system
• DSS
• Weather station
• Hydraulic stabilizers
• Electric awning

Maybe something along these lines as long as we are wishing.

https://jacks.jpeocbd.army.mil/Jacks/Public/FactSheetProvider.aspx?productId=322

As a afterthought I would also include 1 vhf CAP airborne repeater and if you could secure a state issued (1) 800mhz airborne repeater.
We have shown in many joint training events that there are places that even 800mhz is not total coverage and while we would normally have an aircraft airborne during these times we could also be of additional value to other agencies with this type of service.

Quote from: ammotrucker on October 31, 2010, 02:44:01 PM

Quote from: arajca on October 31, 2010, 04:08:56 AM

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 30, 2010, 09:15:24 PM
Just remember to reinforce the chassis...

Don't bother reinforcing the chassis - overspec it.

If you are building to the specs that the State of Florida uses, you will not have to do any more then find those specs as that vehicle is already double framed.  There is no need to do anything else to that chassis.

I was just speaking anecdotally.  We had to reinforce our MCC because we almost went overweight on the standard Winnebago RV frame.  All the little things added up quick.

I think you people are over engineering this thing.

Quote from: N Harmon on October 31, 2010, 10:52:17 PM
I think you people are over engineering this thing.

Why?  What are your thoughts?

Hilarious or ridiculous, pick one.

The majority of CAP missions, including the most planning intensive, man-power-rich, aircraft-heavy ones like Katrina and Fossett, are run on cell phones, some laptop computers, a few status boards, and a couple of comm guys, and you guys are talking about packing the Cheyenne Mountain Complex into an RV.

For starters it is going to be so loud in there you won't be able to hold a conversation.

Part of Zen is understanding your place and role in the universe.

I say keep it simple at first then work from there.  This will keep you from spending money on stuff you're never going to use!

I see Mobile CP's all the time and I believe that IF they are NEEDED, then do it.  Most of the time though, I see them at fairs and other community events mostly as PR but functional as well.  I don't know too many people who wouldn't enjoy checking out the inside of a big motor home with all the pretty lights and cool paint scheme.

First off , it wont be a motorhome, but a professionally build mobile command post.

Each radio is connected to a dispatch console.  Each operator has a headset, and can select what they  can hear , and transmit on.  So no loud noise. 

Again, Im not talking about a make shift home build truck, but a real professional Command post.


In the past 10 years or so in my CAP Comm 'career' I would say 80% of the many high scale missions the Wing has completed has involved us communicating with another agency via radio.

We have had a REGULAR need to talk to various agencies on UHF,VHF-Low, VHF-Hi, 800, and Airband.

In no way would this be overkill, or ridiculous.  It would open the door to CAP to have a little more credibility, Look like the professionals, and talk to them.
It would also give CAP a facility to work out of in a disaster, instead of a run down hangar or tent.
The vehicle would also provide voice, Data, and radio comms to any facility to augment during any CAP mission.

Our role in missions and what we bring to the table is decided by us.  If a group of members has the resources, time, and dedication to put together a functional asset that will allow them to play in a bigger game, more power to them.  To say that such an attempt is laughable shows nothing more than a lack of vision and drive.  Just like everything else in CAP, you get out what you put in.  And if a team puts in the effort to build such an asset and builds strong relationships with other agencies then they will be rewarded with many opportunities to put it to good use.  We're at the point that other agencies have started requesting to use our MCC because their assets are inadequate for their own needs.  Rescue826 wants to build something great and if he does it right he'll find himself with a high demand asset sitting comfortably in his back pocket.  People like this are the ones that will make CAP a bigger player in our operational world.  Thread after thread has been posted on this board about how to get more diverse missions, how to get "ins" with other agencies, and how to take CAP ES to the next level.  This is one of the ways we'll do it.

Quote from: Rescue826 on November 01, 2010, 01:40:34 AM
First off , it wont be a motorhome, but a professionally build mobile command post.

Each radio is connected to a dispatch console.  Each operator has a headset, and can select what they  can hear , and transmit on.  So no loud noise. 

Again, Im not talking about a make shift home build truck, but a real professional Command post.


In the past 10 years or so in my CAP Comm 'career' I would say 80% of the many high scale missions the Wing has completed has involved us communicating with another agency via radio.

We have had a REGULAR need to talk to various agencies on UHF,VHF-Low, VHF-Hi, 800, and Airband.

In no way would this be overkill, or ridiculous.  It would open the door to CAP to have a little more credibility, Look like the professionals, and talk to them.
It would also give CAP a facility to work out of in a disaster, instead of a run down hangar or tent.
The vehicle would also provide voice, Data, and radio comms to any facility to augment during any CAP mission.

And if it all of that is what you need to perform the mission, then get it.  Just don't add anything to it unless you find you do need it.  Allow access areas where you can add needed items as time/technology moves forward.

Sorry, guess the "motor home" should have been quoted.  Not everyone knows that they are specially built so they assume it's just a modified motor home.  I was speaking about how those not familiar with them (like kids).

That's OK - I'll say it. "specially built" is even more ridiculous than an RV.  At least most RV's can be driven without a CDL.

This misses the entire point of the "minuteman" idea of CAP  using existing personal resources and volunteer time as a force multiplier for
professional agencies and the military.

No agency cares about what the resources look like if they get the job done.  The desire to have these "ego-mobiles" is all about shiny, unnecessary toys that generally become liabilities and hanger queens.

(http://www.automotivetraveler.com/images/stories/blogs/richt/090416-08-GMC_EM50_Urban_Assault_Vehicle_from_Stripes.jpg)

Quote from: Eclipse on November 01, 2010, 02:04:13 AM

This misses the entire point of the "minuteman" idea of CAP  using existing personal resources and volunteer time as a force multiplier for professional agencies and the military.

Considering the time it would take to set up a command post in a tent or hangar and then begin operating out of it versus a Mobile Command Post that is already fully functional within a couple of minutes of arrival, I think that would make things faster and would advance the "minuteman" idea of CAP.  But as I said before, that's ONLY if it's USED.

As for existing personal resources, I don't know how your units operate but the only personal resources I used was my field gear.  The rest (comm, vehicles, aircraft) have been existing CAP resources.  A Mobile Command Post would become an existing CAP resource once purchased.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 01, 2010, 02:04:13 AM
That's OK - I'll say it. "specially built" is even more ridiculous than an RV.  At least most RV's can be driven without a CDL.

No agency cares about what the resources look like if they get the job done. 

(http://www.automotivetraveler.com/images/stories/blogs/richt/090416-08-GMC_EM50_Urban_Assault_Vehicle_from_Stripes.jpg)

I beg to differ.  When CAP showes up and we look like this:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs292.ash1/21937_284028522406_272587717406_3931056_7244922_n.jpg)

or this
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs212.snc3/21937_284025502406_272587717406_3931045_327936_n.jpg)

That really dosent make us look any better than Ham radio operators (Nothing Wrong With Hams).  We are supposed to execute at a higher level, not like a bunch of amateurs that just cobbled together a bunch of radios in a wooden box. 


So all Mobile command posts are "Ego-Mobiles'??


how is a mobile platform with comm gear unnecessary?  I think I illustrated several replys ago that its not going to be a "hangar queen".

I think Florida Wings has more missions in a week than most wings have in a year!  With a high operational tempo, a need for interoperable comms, and a mobile 'office'  I think it is absolutely necessary.

Quote from: Eclipse on November 01, 2010, 02:04:13 AM
That's OK - I'll say it. "specially built" is even more ridiculous than an RV.  At least most RV's can be driven without a CDL.

This misses the entire point of the "minuteman" idea of CAP  using existing personal resources and volunteer time as a force multiplier for
professional agencies and the military.

No agency cares about what the resources look like if they get the job done.  The desire to have these "ego-mobiles" is all about shiny, unnecessary toys that generally become liabilities and hanger queens.

CAP being minutemen? In CAWG it often takes us 2 hours to get the people for a competent ground team together.

Quote from: Jerry Jacobs on November 01, 2010, 03:36:25 AM
CAP being minutemen? In CAWG it often takes us 2 hours to get the people for a competent ground team together.

Two whole hours to spin up volunteers who aren't even really "on call" or expecting activity?  Sounds pretty good to me.

It might take longer now that those who only have the AF style uniforms can't go on missions.

...but at least the Comm Truck wouldn't be included in that.

... let them discuss the Comm Truck here, look for a thread on response time and/or crew motivation if you want to discuss response time.

Quote from: a2capt on November 01, 2010, 06:49:23 AM
... let them discuss the Comm Truck here, look for a thread on response time and/or crew motivation if you want to discuss response time.

Interestingly enough, a properly equipped and maintained comm truck or trailer will permit much faster response time for setting up a mission base.  Less wear and tear on communications gadgets too. 

In my neck of the woods we have to grab all the toys from a cache and hope we didn't miss anything.  If we are lucky none of the gadgets are checked out.  Load it all in one or two cars, go to whatever facility we've borrowed for the mission, evaluate where and how to set things up, then set it all up as best we can in what almost always winds up being less than acceptable working conditions.  This process is slow, inefficient, and is part of the typical MRO/CUL "abuse" on missions or SAREX's.  No one gives a darn how crappy the setup is, just make it work or we will whine and complain.

With a comm truck or trailer you simply drive or tow it, park it, and turn the radios on.  Critical supplies aren't missing because they are bolted in.  Little to no setup time needed.

Instead of creating a small number of large MCP's  and spreading them all over the place, It would be much more beneficial to create a larger number of small MCP's like what could be fit into the back of one of our vans with some seats removed or an SUV. The ideal setup would be one mobile VHF and HF radio set in the front of the van. In the back there would be a large white board with a stand along with 5 handheld VHF radios on a charger with a spare battery for each one.  ALong with some basic ICS forms, we could go on and on but what I have put down is a very realistic list.

And for all the History buffs
(http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg829/scaled.php?tn=0&server=829&filename=mcp.gif&xsize=640&ysize=640)

I am currently writing specs for one, so I have avoided commenting in this thread previously.

As the issue is considered, remember, the communications Table of Allowances is based on the large scale incident, not the small, typical incident. Trying to run an incident with more than two or three aicraft/ground teams out of a van or suv doesn't work. There is a reason the TA includes such things as Incident Command Posts and Staging Bases. That being said,  the TA also includes the following equipment for a Mobile ICP Package:
HF-ALE Base
HF-ALE Mobile
VHF-FM Base (2)
VHF-FM Mobile (1)
VHF-AM Base
Mobile Repeater
ISR (5)
Telescopic Mast (2)
2500Amp Generator (2)

Believe it or not, National and the AF understand that not all of our incidents can be run from a fixed base and occasionally, a operating base must be set in the field. A good example would be at a major incident when CAP is one of many supporting agencies. A van with two people or an suv with one person standing at the back doesn't cut it.

Here is what the TA says about Mobile ICPs:

Quote from: Communications Table of AllowancesMobile ICP: One mobile ICP to every 2 fixed ICPs. Mobile communications resources can provide support to a transportable ICP; they can serve as primary communications node for a fixed ICP in a communications stressed environment; or they can serve as deployed communications relay nodes from an ICP into a distant mission area. Minimum allotment of one per wing. Note: The Communications TA supports only the radio equipment necessary for a Mobile ICP. See the Transportation TA for vehicle support.

Each wing is authorized at least one. Most wings are authorized more. For example, COWG is authorized four.

Another point - most mobile communications units do not provide long haul radio (HF). Instead, they rely on cell phones and othr commerical infrastructure, which is something CAP is trying to avoid. Hence the resurrection of HF in CAP.

Never mind, some one beat me to it...

Our current Comm Trailer is a 16 foot tandem axle converted Cargo Trailer.  We used a modular concept for all the gear.  we have 3 portable rack cases that bolt to the countertop.  That way if the trailer is inoperable you can unclip the cases and put them in a van or truck.

Images is from 2006 ish when we  were building the trailer
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1156/5137130547_2beb95c537.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/5137152601_03bf80f3f8.jpg)



I will find a new picture of the trailer that is current.  The above pic is  in the middle of the construction process.   For 5k to build it, I think we did good.

Quote from: Rescue826 on November 01, 2010, 10:22:13 PMWe have 3 portable rack cases that bolt to the countertop.  That way if the trailer is inoperable you can unclip the cases and put them in a van or truck.

I can't say I'm a big fan of that arrangement. It seems like multiple radio operators would be on top of each other trying to operate them.

I much prefer this type of setup, and have mimicked it for our squadron communications room:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg/400px-Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg) (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg)

For OK Wing, we keep it simple. We use a donated FEMA trailer (basic trailer and bumper pulled) and a EFJ VHF base transceiver and a couple EFJ bricks (for monitoring different channels). We can talk to base ops, ground and air. Coax runs outside to a portable tripod mast with a 1/4 wave vertical antenna. Works for all of our SAREX's and FTX's. This simple setup meets the communication demands very well.

Quote from: Rescue826 on November 01, 2010, 10:22:13 PM
Our current Comm Trailer is a 16 foot tandem axle converted Cargo Trailer.  We used a modular concept for all the gear.  we have 3 portable rack cases that bolt to the countertop.  That way if the trailer is inoperable you can unclip the cases and put them in a van or truck.

Images is from 2006 ish when we  were building the trailer

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/5137152601_03bf80f3f8.jpg)

Quote from: N Harmon on November 02, 2010, 12:29:25 PM

Quote from: Rescue826 on November 01, 2010, 10:22:13 PMWe have 3 portable rack cases that bolt to the countertop.  That way if the trailer is inoperable you can unclip the cases and put them in a van or truck.

I can't say I'm a big fan of that arrangement. It seems like multiple radio operators would be on top of each other trying to operate them.

I much prefer this type of setup, and have mimicked it for our squadron communications room:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg/400px-Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg) (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Inside_Fbi_mobile_command_center_.jpg)

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but these seem to be pretty much the same set-up. Three people in a row with a foot or two between them talking on the radio. Other than a few fancier toys, how is Harmon's better than Rescue's?

Quote from: jeders on November 02, 2010, 06:51:02 PM
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but these seem to be pretty much the same set-up. Three people in a row with a foot or two between them talking on the radio. Other than a few fancier toys, how is Harmon's better than Rescue's?

The radios aren't grouped together in a single box, but spread out among the operators.

Quote from: N Harmon on November 02, 2010, 07:24:50 PM

Quote from: jeders on November 02, 2010, 06:51:02 PM
Maybe I'm not seeing it, but these seem to be pretty much the same set-up. Three people in a row with a foot or two between them talking on the radio. Other than a few fancier toys, how is Harmon's better than Rescue's?

The radios aren't grouped together in a single box, but spread out among the operators.

Rescue's has three boxes, not one. Each box has a group of radios for the operator to use. At least that's what it looks like to me.

I see strength and weakness with both approach. Rescue's setup is more portable and easier when operated by only one or two comm guy (when we have limited number of radio operators). Harmon's spread approach is much better when multiple comm guys can man the stations and each attending just one or two frequencies.

All the radios in the racks have a 4 wire 'Remote' that allows each radio to be used simply by connecting up to 2000' of CAT5 cable to the back of the rack then to the remote.  This way the comm trailer can be setup, and if OPS, or any other unit  needs a radio you dont have to setup another antenna, ground it ect.   you just run a remote.

Each position in the trailer also have a 'mini console' were they can select what radio(s)  they listen to and transmit on.   So it dosent matter were the rack is.  everyone in the trailer can talk on everything.

Quote from: Rescue826 on November 02, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
All the radios in the racks have a 4 wire 'Remote' that allows each radio to be used simply by connecting up to 2000' of CAT5 cable to the back of the rack then to the remote.  This way the comm trailer can be setup, and if OPS, or any other unit  needs a radio you dont have to setup another antenna, ground it ect.   you just run a remote.

You can do that with EF Johnson radios?

Yep! 

everything you need (TX Audio, PTT, and Ground) are in the front mic connector.

We found a few extra Mics laying around - its cheaper than getting the connector, pins, and tool from EFJ

So we cut off the handmic  and used the connector to get PTT, TX Audio, and Ground.  We got receive audio from the speaker dongle on the back.

We then wired  a RJ-45 jack in Parallel  and rigged the pinouts to work with a standard Motorola mic (So you can still use the radio locally)

Also in parallel we wired in a CPI Comm LE-10 local remote....you can wire in parallel any number of CPI remotes as required to talk on a single radio. This also provides each CPI Remote (on the same circuit) intercom capability.

So all the radios in the rack have the option of using the CPI remotes.  So now instead of setting up bunches of radios at your Mission Base or ICP, all you need is some CAT5 cable and some CPI Remotes.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 24, 2010, 09:37:16 PM
I'd take a brick and mortar facility over a mobile one any day of the week.  But since we are gypsies without so much as a reliable meeting place, I'd take that mobile command post in a heart beat, or even the "Albatross."   ;)

DITTO!

Quote from: 321EOD on November 09, 2010, 02:16:33 AM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 24, 2010, 09:37:16 PM
I'd take a brick and mortar facility over a mobile one any day of the week.  But since we are gypsies without so much as a reliable meeting place, I'd take that mobile command post in a heart beat, or even the "Albatross."   ;)

DITTO!

Heh - spoken like people who didn't have it in their driveway for three months, at least now we have a secure location on base where we can charge the batteries...

Quote from: HGjunkie on October 25, 2010, 12:48:42 AM

Quote from: Rescue826 on October 25, 2010, 12:29:57 AM
Lets say that we just got a $400,000 federal grant to build a mobile command vehicle.   That the main purpose is for disaster response.

My vision is that it would be able to pull up to a non-existent or damaged facility and provide  Phone, Radio, Internet...etc.

It would also be able to be self sufficent to provide command, control, and communications in the middle of nowhere after a disaster.

CAP Comms:
6 VHF
2 HF
2 Airband

I/O Comms:
800 mhz Multinet (Motorola Smartzone, Motorola Astro, EDACS, P25 Trunking)
UHF hi
UHF Low
VHF Lowband
Amateur Radio   2m/70cm/HF
Dispatch consoles w/  patching capability  (Telex -IP Based)


Satellite based internet w/ Auto deploy dish
Voip PBX system (Asterisk)
several Cellular lines (ML500)

VTC capability

Cache of VHF portables

Internal File Server
IMU Server

4.9ghz mesh WLAN

At least 4 internal positions for Incident Dispatchers
Conf Room for planning/Command staff

Redundant 12k generators

Gally / Lavatory...

Thoughts?

It's missing an Xbox 360.

with CoD: Black Ops: prestige edition haha

Quote from: PHall on October 31, 2010, 03:17:28 PM

Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:45:12 PM

Quote from: Smithsonia on October 24, 2010, 05:53:09 PM
Lets get one of these:
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m170.php3
American Made. Military styling. Back country ready. Cool factor that the Comm/Command trailer/buses/campers
don't have.

I have no idea if it is best for technology. But, its cooler by a mile. Even the  black bears would be intimidated. And if they're not  or they are
grizzlies then throw one of these in the mix... an MRAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaxxPro_in_Iraq.jpg

We'll need a card with a high credit line to run through the gas in the MRAP.

Do... want MRAP... nothing says "get rescued" like light armor

There is nothing "light" about the MRAP. You take it off a paved road and the MRAP will need to be "rescued" too. ;)

I'm sorry i forgot to mention the small fleet of dedicated tow trucks that were to accompany it haha

What is the best way to go about putting an EF Johnson into my van?

Open the door, put it in, shut the door. ;)

The problem with these things is they tend to not give extra spots in vehicles for this kind of stuff, so you end up a lot of times building a custom console. The old "under dash mount" doesn't really work anymore because there is no dash to get under in most stuff, as it goes so far down you end up sticking it to the side instead.

I have a radio in a PT Cruiser, and I put the radio face up in between the front seats, it wedge fit nicely into a rectangular spot in the "center organizer thing", so I thats where it got installed. The mic reaches all four positions decently, and everyone can see the display.

The arm rests mostly hide it from common view when standing outside looking in, but from inside it's perfectly usable.

In my van I have put in a center console that has a nice spot to attach a radio to its side. That is not my concern, what I am needing is best wiring methods. I would love a radio with a lighter jack or a wall jack as I have both in my van. It would just be nice not to have to add a new wiring harness and fuse.

The EFJ needs to be wired directly to the battery, or through an unused circuit through the power center. I used the brake controller harness in my Suburban, and it works well. A lighter circuit doesn't usually have sufficient current capacity, and has too many intermediate connections that may cause interference. The circuit I use has only one intermediate connector between the battery and the radio wire. The circuit also has a fuse in the power center, so I didn't need to worry about the in-line fuse.

One thing to think about if you mount a radio in a center console, ventilation.
Radios need to breathe so they don't overheat.

The EFJ mobile has three wire that need to be connected. The large red goes to a battery positive (or similar circuit), the black or blue (depending on your harness) goes to ground, and the thin red or blue goes to an ignition switched circuit. Most fuse boxes have one or two of these available. Without the ignition wire, the radio will not operate. If you wire it to the battery wire, you will need to manually turn the radio off everytime.

I highly recommend attaching the small red wire directly to the battery, too. There have been too many radio failures induced by switching the ignition off and on with the radio turned on. The programming gets scrambled or dumped, and it usually results in a trip to NTC for the fix.

Quote from: SarDragon on December 12, 2010, 07:58:18 PM
I highly recommend attaching the small red wire directly to the battery, too. There have been too many radio failures induced by switching the ignition off and on with the radio turned on. The programming gets scrambled or dumped, and it usually results in a trip to NTC for the fix.

I can't agree with that - we've had too many people with dead batteries because they don't shut off automatically.

If an important feature like that doesn't work properly on a $2500 radio, it needs to go back to the NTC and EFJ from there.  These aren't K-Mart CB's, these are supposed to be commercial-grade devices.

Hi, I just turned my paperwork into CAP in Wilmington DE last night.  I'm a long-time Army MARS/SHARES guy and have a commo truck project of my own:

(http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/25Aug09-CARES/MCU37%20side%20view.JPG)

It has a 25KVA diesel generator on-board and another one to tow behind it.  More on the project at my website http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/index.html (http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/index.html).

Whoever dies with the most radios and antennas wins!  ;D  And yes, I have compliant radios (three Micom-2Es in the truck along with a VHF P25 Astro Spectra).

-- john

Quote from: jks19714 on February 11, 2011, 07:18:06 PM
Hi, I just turned my paperwork into CAP in Wilmington DE last night.  I'm a long-time Army MARS/SHARES guy and have a commo truck project of my own:

(http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/25Aug09-CARES/MCU37%20side%20view.JPG)

It has a 25KVA diesel generator on-board and another one to tow behind it.  More on the project at my website http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/index.html (http://www.armymars.net/ArmyMARS/MCU/index.html).

Whoever dies with the most radios and antennas wins!  ;D  And yes, I have compliant radios (three Micom-2Es in the truck along with a VHF P25 Astro Spectra).

-- john

Wow, she's a beauty. If you weren't in Delaware I'd ask to help you with the networking  :angel:

The truck's previous owner was FEMA.  I tore out all of the wood "furniture", moldy carpet and junk and started over.  It has been a longtime effort.  Once the weather gets a bit warmer, I need to get started on rebuilding the generator trailer.

As you can probably tell, I'm a systems engineer for the local power utility (in the network security and continuity of operations section right now).

- john

Quote from: jks19714 on February 11, 2011, 07:38:11 PM
The truck's previous owner was FEMA.  I tore out all of the wood "furniture", moldy carpet and junk and started over.  It has been a longtime effort.  Once the weather gets a bit warmer, I need to get started on rebuilding the generator trailer.

As you can probably tell, I'm a systems engineer for the local power utility (in the network security and continuity of operations section right now).

- john

Got any pics of the inside?

Nevermind, found them.

You missed the security guard...  He say's it's top secret
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_4Jf-3v4vPP4/TVWloYZT-CI/AAAAAAAAADA/6PUjuBD1G7E/Secret%20squirel%20real.jpg)