Should customs/courtesies and uniform wear be enforced?

Started by JoeTomasone, March 10, 2009, 11:46:37 PM

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To what degree should customs/courtesies and uniform wear be enforced?

Not at all. If you wanna play soldier, enlist!
7 (6.4%)
Don't enforce it, it drives mission-capable people away.
0 (0%)
It probably should be done, but if not, no big deal...
4 (3.6%)
Enforce uniforms, but leave the saluting jazz and the "sir" at home.
4 (3.6%)
We should enforce customs and courtesies, but we don't need to enforce proper uniform wear.
1 (0.9%)
We should enforce both because the regs require them.
7 (6.4%)
We should enforce both because we are the Auxiliary of the Air Force and should adopt their standards.
9 (8.2%)
We should enforce both because we are the USAF Auxiliary AND it's in the regs.
78 (70.9%)

Total Members Voted: 110

Voting closed: April 09, 2009, 11:46:37 PM

RiverAux

With 85% supporting enforcing uniform wear and C&C, this seems to be one of the more lopsided polls I've ever seen on Captalk.  This is one of the reasons I like the poll feature -- they give a clearer view of where people actually stand, especially when a conversation can be dominated by a person who actually represents a very small minority of CAPTalkers. 

Although I don't agree with it, I can understand those that say we shouldn't bother with either of them, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the position of the other minority that thinks its important to wear the uniform correctly, but that military customs and courtesies should not be followed. 

SaBeR33

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJBottom line: If you're going to wear the Air Force uniform, you'd better play by the Air Force's rules. To boot, if you're going to teach cadets, you'd better lead by example.

Diamonds 15 years ago, oak leaves now, nothing's different for me. Former cadets may be among the most vehement about this.

Quoted for truth, especially being former cadet myself.

My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

Rob Sherlin

#22
 Wearing the uniform properly is not only required by the regulations, it shows pride in being a member of CAP. If certain individuals are not proud of what they belong to, and not striving towards that goal of excellence, and not making at least the effort, then maybe they should quit, or be thrown out, instead of showing up and making everyone else look bad.
  And yes, we should follow customs and courtesies. Once again it shows respect and pride in CAP and it's members.

  What I can't grasp, is the few who voted that uniform standards shouldn't be enforced at all.
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: RiverAux on March 12, 2009, 03:10:04 AM
...I have a hard time wrapping my head around the position of the other minority that thinks its important to wear the uniform correctly, but that military customs and courtesies should not be followed.

The uniform comes with certain obligations, responsibilities and traditions. If you choose not to carry that mantel, then don't put the uniform on.

If customs and courtesies are a bother to you, wear the golf shirt, the blazer, heck, even the guyabera shirt if you dare. None of those are really uniforms, anyway.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Slim

Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.


Slim

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: Slim on March 12, 2009, 09:01:44 PM
Thankfully, the Mexican party shirt died a glorious death about 15 years ago.

I'd suggest a few other CAP-only items go the same route....  >:D


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Eclipse

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on March 12, 2009, 08:47:27 PM
If customs and courtesies are a bother to you, wear the golf shirt, the blazer, heck, even the guyabera shirt if you dare. None of those are really uniforms, anyway.

The only courtesy the above uniforms might relieve you of is saluting - the Sirs, Ma'ams, addressing by title and last name, etc., are in force regardless.

"That Others May Zoom"

Short Field

Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 12, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

Another home-grown set of rules.  The USAF uniform is NOT an acceptable subsitute for a CAP uniform.  If you are wearing a USAF uniform, you might as well be in civies as you are NOT in a CAP uniform.   We have a few that insist on showing up at meetings in a USAF flight suit.  They are not even on active flying status!  Another squadron/CC insisted on only wearing flight suits at meetings until the Wing/CC put a stop to it.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Rob Sherlin

#28
  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

capchiro

A Reserve Liason Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Eclipse

Quote from: capchiro on March 13, 2009, 12:07:28 AM
A Reserve Laison Major showed up at our squadron in his Air Force Flight Suit.  Appropriate??

Yes...for them.  Depending on their job, the flight suit, for reservists and active duty, is considered their regular duty uniform.

That is not the case for CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Rob Sherlin

#31
  I think there might be a conflict there.........CAP is not the reserves, it's not regular military. You show up at a CAP meeting, you should be in the appropriate CAP uniform. There's regulations in which require us to NOT be in uniform within a certain time frame of our meetings....Considering this, I'm sure there is time to change.

  It also has to do with earlier post, and the restrictions of wearing the CAP uniforms, lack of publicity, lack of interest,...and so on.

  Also, by showing up in another uniform, it denotes CAP by somewhat presenting the image, "I'm better than you, I am able to wear THIS uniform"!.....How do you think that makes other members feel?

  That's not right at all bro!.....We should be members of CAP as a whole, and not take on a "look at me" attitude!.......I guarantee flights, squadrons, wings, etc.......will achieve a lot more if members focus on teaching others, rather than bragging about where they're at.
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

SaBeR33

Quote from: Short Field on March 12, 2009, 11:02:37 PM
Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 12, 2009, 10:14:42 AM
My current squadron CC is an active duty AF SSgt who has made a local policy that applies to SMs where, if we cannot come to a meeting in a proper CAP or USAF uniform (we have a few active duty folks), then don't come to the meeting, especially if we're working with cadets.

Another home-grown set of rules.  The USAF uniform is NOT an acceptable subsitute for a CAP uniform.  If you are wearing a USAF uniform, you might as well be in civies as you are NOT in a CAP uniform.   We have a few that insist on showing up at meetings in a USAF flight suit.  They are not even on active flying status!  Another squadron/CC insisted on only wearing flight suits at meetings until the Wing/CC put a stop to it.

If they don't have time to change out of their AF uniforms prior to making to it to meetings--which does happen due to long hours at work just as I experienced while on active duty--then the AF uniform should be acceptable, but not the best option. It's either they wear their duty uniforms or not come at all. Which would you prefer? Would you rather have no CC, DCC, or Leadership Officer since they're all active duty or have them show up in their duty uniforms if they didn't have time to change?

es_g0d

Them and Us ... terribly divisive.

Total Force: Active, Reserve, Guard, Auxiliary.  Think it, believe it, LIVE UP TO IT.  

:D
Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

Rob Sherlin

#34
 Hey! If I have time to change in 1/hr.............

  If they plan on being at a meeting....Bring the appropriate uniform......We are a unique organization which follows certain regulations......Unless they're there on AF busines, they should be wearing a CAP uniform if they're a member.........Standards are standards, and should go for everyone........Otherwise, just get rid of all the uniform rules!
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

Eclipse

Wait one and re-read.

I'm not talking about a reservist who is also a CAP member - in that case they have no choice but to change.  I've had this conversation with our State Director.  Unless they are on orders approved by their CC to do something for the USAF at that meeting, they are potentially violating USAF regs for uniform wear. 

I believe what CAPCHIRO was referring to is a CAPRAP coming down in that capacity, in which case they are "on duty" and the flight suit is likely an approved duty uniform.  Believe it o not, some of these reservists don't even own blues that fit.

"That Others May Zoom"

Rob Sherlin

#36
 If you're a CAP member, and in the AF, how long would it take you to jump out of that blue/ olive sack and change?
To fly freely above the earth is the ultimate dream for me in life.....For I do not wish to wait till I pass to earn my wings.

Rob Sherlin SM, NER-NY-116

Short Field

Quote from: SaBeR33 on March 13, 2009, 12:25:42 AMIf they don't have time to change out of their AF uniforms prior to making to it to meetings--which does happen due to long hours at work just as I experienced while on active duty--then the AF uniform should be acceptable, but not the best option.

Give them some cheese with that whine ---  it is just a lame excuse.   If they really are active duty military, then changing uniforms "on the fly" should be no problem - BTDT a lot.  Keeping a uniform in the vehicle and changing into it at the meeting should be a piece of cake - and done in less than 5 minutes.  That is assume they are not wearing a set of blues at work and only need to chose which CAP shirt to wear with the pants - then they just need two minutes. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

es_g0d

An Air Force uniform is an Air Force uniform, regardless of component.

That said, the CAP-USAF/CC doesn't want active duty members to wear their "Air Force" uniform to CAP functions when acting in the capacity of a CAP member.  He's afraid of CAP members taking the words of active duty members as that of CAP-USAF.  I would point out that he hasn't the authority to make that prohibition.  If its not a prohibited place to wear an Air Force uniform, then ... its not prohibited.  Frankly, its one of those things that's "wrong" between CAP and the parent organization--its not fostering cooperation.

This is not to say that one shouldn't be dressed appropriately for conducting business--whether that be as a reservist or as a CAP member.  Obviously the best case is to change into the appropriate uniform.  I wouldn't act as mission base staff or knock on someone's door in an AF uniform.  That would clearly be inappropriate and confusing to the "customer." 

For regular meetings, I'm thankful that people show up -- unless its a special event, a CAP uniform tends to be difficult for many.  As for myself, I'm generally coming as I am!  If I still have my work clothes on then so be it.  I'm much more interested in the people than the outfit they have on.
Good luck and good hunting,
-Scott
www.CAP-ES.net

Hawk200

Quote from: Rob Sherlin on March 12, 2009, 11:24:28 PM
  Flight suits should not be for regular meetings!!! That's like showing up for blood donations in welding gear!

  Oh!...Look at me!...I'm a pilot!......Duh huh?

I would disagree on that, conditionally. A unit in a wing I was formerly a member of was a senior unit. They had a couple of planes, and tended to fly at their "regular meetings", which was usually a couple of Saturday mornings a month. They also did missions, and regularly flew cadets on O rides.

Every now and then a regular meeting (meaning no flying was done), they still wore uniforms. The uniform was a flightsuit. I don't think that many of them even owned anything other than a green or blue bag.

Does this seem inappropriate? If so, why? Being a unit with nothing but flying missions, what need do they have for blues or even BDU's?

As to cadet units, I wouldn't see the point of them. For a composite unit, I have no problem if the person flies regularly, and wears the bag occasionally. But as the only uniform they have, no.

Should we enforce that? Definitely.