Civil Air Patrol Helicopter

[Short Field]

ORM is not about "acceptable" risk.  It is about evaluating and defining the risk, determing what can be done to mitigate the risk, and then deciding if the expected gain outweights the mitigated risk.   

[JB_407]

Flying Pig,

The only LE up here with any aviations assets are the State Troopers.

JB

[JB_407]

Rotorhead,

Well we seem to be in agreement on one thing, I think Flying Pig as well. None of us likes Robinsons.

So is it only my wing that seems to be losing business? The rest of you folks getting missions?

JB

[PHall]

Rotorhead,

Well we seem to be in agreement on one thing, I think Flying Pig as well. None of us likes Robinsons.

So is it only my wing that seems to be losing business? The rest of you folks getting missions?

JB

According to AFRCC, everybody has had a drop off in business.

[JB_407]

I guess it is signs of the times.

[Dragon 3-2]

I think CAP could find a use for a UH-1D sized bird, maybe medical organ transport.

I know if NJWG got an S-76 it would be perfect for HS since that aircraft is by far the most numerous in our skies


as an aside...I know CAP will get choppers the day Flying Pig trades his Little Bird for an Apache Longbow lol

[SarDragon]

And who's going to pay for these flying mechanical nightmares? You? 

[heliodoc]

With respect to the R22 / R44 One can read SFAR No 73 to Part 61 about training requirements to those particular aircraft

Now to the thread about CAPers desiring helicopters...

Where is the money going to come from?...this has been argued so many times before on CAPtalk that some of these folks really DO NOT understand the depth and breadth of maintaining a training, continuing education program, and the ever present "roughly" 7-10 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight time.  One on CAPTalk will soon learn.......

Coupled with the fuel burn rates of  both piston and turbine equipment for different demands of every flight regime of helicopter operations
Now fuel burn rates on piston helicopter vs piston airplane can continue to have its arguments of nearly being equal, the maintenance of even R22 and R 44 helicopters are different than many CAP  consolidated maintenance operations.  Basic tooling to support helicopter maintenance MAY cost as much as selling a USED CAP C172 for 60 to 70K.   Where do you suppose CAP is going to buy all that support infrastructure to support helicopter maintenance.

To think CAP could support any helicopter with 100 LL at approx 3.00 to 5.75 / gal and Jet A hovering around 5.77 to 7.00 + per gallon is a pretty good dream on anyone's part.  This would may exclude folks who are buying fuel on bulk basis to reduce fuel costs

CAPtalkers refer to Rotor and Wing magazine and Googling other helicopter sites.   Learn about those costs when you peruse these different sites, ask your favorite helicopter service center attached to or near and FBO... the 75 to 200 per hour labor rates MAY be the cheapest thing on that invoice after buying parts for helos and then come talk to us folks who maintain, maintained, flew, and who are currently flying...
We could sit down and reason near every argument point for point, to any CApers what is up in the real world not the CAP world

CAPTalkers will soon get the idea(s) that CAP with its budget, the PAID LE, EMS, and military are the sure route to go for helo SAR

CAP need just stick with the fixed wing operations and keep dreamin of the days of a CAP "SAR helicopter."

[tdepp]

I guess it is signs of the times.

The only constant is change.  My wing and squadron recognize this change in business and is reaching out to other organizations and governments to see if we can assist with their aerial needs--of course, all within the restrictions per our regulations.  We plan to be busy flying.

[davidsinn]

If you're running a search and you need a helo just call AFRCC and they will try and find you one. I listened to a good briefing from one of their SARDOs at the ES conference a few weeks back and he said if there is a chance of saving a life with it they'd call in just about anything in the DOD inventory.

[Flying Pig]

If you're running a search and you need a helo just call AFRCC and they will try and find you one. I listened to a good briefing from one of their SARDOs at the ES conference a few weeks back and he said if there is a chance of saving a life with it they'd call in just about anything in the DOD inventory.

The only thing better than saving a life is riding the PR wave that comes with it!!

[sardak]

If you're running a search and you need a helo just call AFRCC and they will try and find you one. I listened to a good briefing from one of their SARDOs at the ES conference a few weeks back and he said if there is a chance of saving a life with it they'd call in just about anything in the DOD inventory.

You mean like this?

10/25/2007 - KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE, N.M. (AFPN) -- A CV-22 Osprey assigned to the 58th Special Operations Wing here participated in the aircraft's first search and recovery mission, responding to the fatal crash of a medical aircraft in the mountains of southern Colorado.

At about 9:15 a.m. Oct. 5, the Air Force Rescue Center contacted Kirtland Air Force Base with a call to help at the request of civil authorities. Initially, the mission was considered search and rescue because the condition of those aboard the downed aircraft was unknown.  The response team quickly prepared to take off. Aircraft included the CV-22, a pair of HH-60G Pave Hawk helicopters, and an MC-130P Combat Shadow to provide aerial refueling and serve as air mission control for the operation.

The only thing better than saving a life is riding the PR wave that comes with it!!

This wasn't a save, but it was a PR event for the Air Force.

Mike

[RiverAux]

On one mission CAP responded and located a non-distress ELT. They were unable to land so RCC dispatched a UH-60 and crew to silence the ELT. Tell me that a CAP crew in a light single engine helo couldnt have performed that mission at a lower cost.

Why in the world didn't CAP send a ground team out to take care of it after it was located by a CAP plane?  Nobody should have sent a helicopter in this situation. 

[JB_407]

On one mission CAP responded and located a non-distress ELT. They were unable to land so RCC dispatched a UH-60 and crew to silence the ELT. Tell me that a CAP crew in a light single engine helo couldnt have performed that mission at a lower cost.

Why in the world didn't CAP send a ground team out to take care of it after it was located by a CAP plane?  Nobody should have sent a helicopter in this situation.

The long and the short of it is because its easy. As I have said before in this thread and will continue to repeat its not about money at least not entirely or even mostly. In this case short of parachuting a ground team in they were going by helicopter or taking a several day hike.

[JB_407]

If you're running a search and you need a helo just call AFRCC and they will try and find you one. I listened to a good briefing from one of their SARDOs at the ES conference a few weeks back and he said if there is a chance of saving a life with it they'd call in just about anything in the DOD inventory.

You mean like this?

10/25/2007 - KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE, N.M. (AFPN) -- A CV-22 Osprey assigned to the 58th Special Operations Wing here participated in the aircraft's first search and recovery mission, responding to the fatal crash of a medical aircraft in the mountains of southern Colorado.

At about 9:15 a.m. Oct. 5, the Air Force Rescue Center contacted Kirtland Air Force Base with a call to help at the request of civil authorities. Initially, the mission was considered search and rescue because the condition of those aboard the downed aircraft was unknown.  The response team quickly prepared to take off. Aircraft included the CV-22, a pair of HH-60G Pave Hawk helicopters, and an MC-130P Combat Shadow to provide aerial refueling and serve as air mission control for the operation.

The only thing better than saving a life is riding the PR wave that comes with it!!

This wasn't a save, but it was a PR event for the Air Force.

Mike

This just reinforces my argument that its not about money. Lets face it guys at the end of the day CAP is a red line at the bottom of the ledger sheet. Doesnt matter if we fly 172s or space shuttles.

[RiverAux]

On one mission CAP responded and located a non-distress ELT. They were unable to land so RCC dispatched a UH-60 and crew to silence the ELT. Tell me that a CAP crew in a light single engine helo couldnt have performed that mission at a lower cost.

Why in the world didn't CAP send a ground team out to take care of it after it was located by a CAP plane?  Nobody should have sent a helicopter in this situation.

The long and the short of it is because its easy. As I have said before in this thread and will continue to repeat its not about money at least not entirely or even mostly. In this case short of parachuting a ground team in they were going by helicopter or taking a several day hike.

How does a non-distress ELT end up being a 2 day hike from anywhere? 

[JB_407]

If you're running a search and you need a helo just call AFRCC and they will try and find you one. I listened to a good briefing from one of their SARDOs at the ES conference a few weeks back and he said if there is a chance of saving a life with it they'd call in just about anything in the DOD inventory.

True enough and more proof that it isnt an economic decision

[JB_407]

It was a super cub on skis sitting on a glacier. I wasn't a part of this mission so I am short on details but I am familiar with the area and I would think twice about going in there with wheel skis.

[JB_407]

I guess it is signs of the times.

The only constant is change.  My wing and squadron recognize this change in business and is reaching out to other organizations and governments to see if we can assist with their aerial needs--of course, all within the restrictions per our regulations.  We plan to be busy flying.

Thats good to hear and I wish you luck. Our squadron has had a similar effort and we did pick up a couple of missions from the NWS. It darn near took an act of congress to free up the funds. Remains to be seen if we get tasked with it again this year. Whats your marketing strategy for a 172 towing miles of red tape?

[JB_407]

With respect to the R22 / R44 One can read SFAR No 73 to Part 61 about training requirements to those particular aircraft

Now to the thread about CAPers desiring helicopters...

Where is the money going to come from?...this has been argued so many times before on CAPtalk that some of these folks really DO NOT understand the depth and breadth of maintaining a training, continuing education program, and the ever present "roughly" 7-10 hours of maintenance for every hour of flight time.  One on CAPTalk will soon learn.......

Coupled with the fuel burn rates of  both piston and turbine equipment for different demands of every flight regime of helicopter operations
Now fuel burn rates on piston helicopter vs piston airplane can continue to have its arguments of nearly being equal, the maintenance of even R22 and R 44 helicopters are different than many CAP  consolidated maintenance operations.  Basic tooling to support helicopter maintenance MAY cost as much as selling a USED CAP C172 for 60 to 70K.   Where do you suppose CAP is going to buy all that support infrastructure to support helicopter maintenance.

To think CAP could support any helicopter with 100 LL at approx 3.00 to 5.75 / gal and Jet A hovering around 5.77 to 7.00 + per gallon is a pretty good dream on anyone's part.  This would may exclude folks who are buying fuel on bulk basis to reduce fuel costs

CAPtalkers refer to Rotor and Wing magazine and Googling other helicopter sites.   Learn about those costs when you peruse these different sites, ask your favorite helicopter service center attached to or near and FBO... the 75 to 200 per hour labor rates MAY be the cheapest thing on that invoice after buying parts for helos and then come talk to us folks who maintain, maintained, flew, and who are currently flying...
We could sit down and reason near every argument point for point, to any CApers what is up in the real world not the CAP world

CAPTalkers will soon get the idea(s) that CAP with its budget, the PAID LE, EMS, and military are the sure route to go for helo SAR

CAP need just stick with the fixed wing operations and keep dreamin of the days of a CAP "SAR helicopter."

R-22's nobody is talking R-22's here, as the SFAR goes whats your point? A few minutes during a form 91 and that requirement met.

As far as funding goes let me answer that question with a question. If we have LE, EMS, Military handle these missions where does the funding come from? My point it that really all we are talking about is reapportioning monies that are already spent. While possibly at a lower cost. As far a 7-10 hours of maintenance time per flight hour. I fully agree with you that there are aircraft that might be that maintenance intensive but for the types of ships that CAP might field it is highly inflated.

Speaking of highly inflated, so is your figure of $200/hr. Assuming a labor multiplier of 2.0 find me a CAP mechanic who has a wage of $100/hr. Of course you chose the worst cast shop rates there so if we go with those figures then we have to throw out your argument about infrastructure and tooling costs.

Can't support the cost of fuel? You just said in the previous paragraph that the argument could be made that a piston plane and piston helo have similar fuel burns. My squadron flies Beavers, do you think a Beaver can beat the 14 gph published for an R-44?