The Empire Strikes Back: US Ranger Corps, Etc.

[JC004]

wtf...is there some conspiracy now?

[CASH172]

First of all , I think its inproper for a CADET to comment on a Senior member or even ex Senior Member, we do not teach our young people to ridicule people whether EX MEMBERS OR NON MEMBERS. It is not a cadet value to start up or get involved in gossip, controversy, or talking about people. But I guess different people train their cadets differently. I for one would never want any of my cadets to even get involved in gossip or redicule. What kind of cadet are we mentoring and developing in today's CAP? Are we teaching cadets to be respectful of people wheather they deserve that respect or not or are we teaching them its ok to make fun of people?

Me and SARKID are on here all the time.  I understand that cadets in general may not understand the full picture on an issue, and just getting pieces from here may not be beneficial, but a cadet has a right to know what's going on in his/her organization.  Plus, I'd say this helps develop a cadet's understanding of the big picture issues and can be a life lesson sometime in his/her life. 

[♠SARKID♠]

Me and SARKID are on here all the time.  I understand that cadets in general may not understand the full picture on an issue, and just getting pieces from here may not be beneficial, but a cadet has a right to know what's going on in his/her organization.  Plus, I'd say this helps develop a cadet's understanding of the big picture issues and can be a life lesson sometime in his/her life. 

Thank you CASH, I agree.  To flyguy, rebuttal PM sent.

As for Pineda, I really don't mind if he wants to start his own little club.  Yeah, you'd think I'd think otherwise having been the one to start this thread.  As long as his people and our people are able to coexist peacefully, and neither side spikes the others kool-aid, It'll be alright.

[MIKE]

Ummm... Lock.

[The Voice of Reason]

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum, but something you might want to consider:

1). CAP is and has been rife with political intrigue for decades, probably from the very beginning.  The incident with Pineda only proves that the bull[mess] goes right to the very top.

2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out [[redacted for COC]].

4). [[redacted for COC]]

5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

I'm not saying Pineda was completely right, or even one of the "good guys" -- he may have been just as bad or worse.

Now, that having been said, the USRC seems like it's been created in yet another round of oneupmanship.  Pineda has appointed himself a 3 star general where the highest rank in CAP is only 2 stars, etc.

So much for the "benefit of the doubt."

Because of it's governmental backing and whatnot, CAP has a distinct advantage over any upstart organization with similar goals, but if Pineda and crew have something to contribute, let them give it a shot.  Either they'll fall flat on their faces and go away for good, or they'll give CAP a run for its money and the competition will force us to improve.

Personally, it makes me cringe, but what's worse is the behavior I've seen on this site.  Conduct unbecoming for sure.

What kind of image and example are you setting?  This site can be viewed by the general public and frankly, most of you have been making jackasses out of yourselves.  The one voice I heard suggesting people act with a little decorum was squelched with hostility by insolent brats.

What really needs to happen with CAP is the Air Force has to step in and clean house.  Most Wings pass their SAR EVAL's with flying colors ONLY because they know when the evaluation period will be and have their select few buddies take days off from work and hang around waiting to respond.

Many people who achieve in this organization don't want to allow others to achieve similarly because it makes them less special by comparison.

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

What if part of keeping your ratings was that as part of the renewal process you -had- to get someone certified or get a waiver for why you didn't?

CAP-USAF, run a no-notice SAREX in the middle of the week.  In the absence of that, without warning, put ALL of the initial participants aside and say "OK, what else you got?" and see what they come up with.  It's usually the same bunch of people every time, so they don't have to train others.

And for God Sake, Stop reaching down to recruit children!!!

There is a difference between Children and Cadets.  There should be NO CHILDREN in this organization.

With all the pictures of young children on the cover of the Volunteer magazine, I was starting to wonder if they were familiar with the CPPT, especially that part about perverts trying to find legitimate access to children, and moreover, who exactly were they trying to recruit with it?

If I didn't know how great this organization can be from my service decades ago, seeing the Volunteer would be enough to prevent me from joining.

Just some thoughts for consideration...

[edited for profanity filter circumvention - Mod (MC)]

[Pylon]

Ummm... Lock.

I merged the two topics on the same subject. After removing the over-the-line posts, this thread is provisionally open, but being watched closely.  Please, folks, keep it professional.  This is not the water cooler or locker room; this is a professional discussion board.

[flyerthom]

That has got to be one of the worst analogies I have heard.  They use the same symbol.  But I've never heard of a Chief refer to themselves as "General". And their "rank" actually has a government appointed authority that comes along with it.  Additionally, I don't know of any self appointed police chiefs or sheriff's.

This guy came close, read to the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_State_Helicopters

[FW]

I'm not interested in other similar organizations (new or established).  I'm interested in CAP;  it's care and good feeding.

Why and how we lost our previous national commander is  the business of our Board of Governors.  They have authority granted by congress to govern CAP.  They are not bound by the Constitution and Bylaws of the organization.  They govern by majority vote and, a majority decided to terminate his membership.  End of story.  

Politics and intrigue are part of every group. People get advanced degrees and make great careers on this truth and, to say we can be free of this is unrealistic.

National Staff has control of the media machine?  OK,  Mr. Pineda or anyone else may register on "CAPTALK" and present an alternate view.  

As far as our mission readiness goes; we do the best we can.  In the last 7 years, since 9\11, I haven't heard any major complaints.  It's amazing how a group of volunteers rise to the occasion when needed and stay until the mission is over.

Our K-5 experiment is going well.  In a time when children need something else, CAP gives them something to strive for.  It gives teachers an extra tool to accomplish things not found in a standard curriculum.  

What's nice about CAP is almost anyone can contribute.  We just need to learn, train and do.  Yes, it's not so easy.  Just don't blame "bloated bureaucrats".  NHQ is dedicated to the volunteers.  The volunteer leadership is dedicated to the membership and the betterment of CAP.  Any one who says otherwise is misinformed or worse.  If there is an exception, it will be taken care of (see paragraph 2).  

I've also been a member of CAP for decades.  I'm just as proud to be a member as when I was a cadet.  Things are different but not worse.  In fact, I think we're doing better now than at almost any time since WW2.  Just my opinion.  

So, if another organization is formed, that's fine with me.  It will not effect anything I do.  CAP will survive quite well.  We've got things to do and I'll just stay focused on my little corner of the universe.  Thank you very much.

[star1151]

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

[Chappie]

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

I would challenge this viewpoint since I have not found that to be case....and I am not in some "good ole' boy" network.  In each CAP endeavor I have been involved in for the past 12 years, there has been support not suppression.

[Eeyore]

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

I would challenge this viewpoint since I have not found that to be case....and I am not in some "good ole' boy" network.  In each CAP endeavor I have been involved in for the past 12 years, there has been support not suppression.

I believe that there is a GOB network, but they think they have more power and control than they actually have. They tend to be the types that have BTDT and don't want to do anything anymore but sit around and talk about those days. They can do that while the rest of us get something done.

I haven't met much resistance in anything that I have done. I get questioned because I am a younger member, but if I can't defend what I am trying to do, I probably shouldn't be doing it.

[Hawk200]

2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

A quick question: Were you present at the proceedings? If not, how do you know? Unless someone is in the middle, they don't really know anything. A lot of the evidence heard may never reach those of us in the trenches.

3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out for making death threats against other members and was upset that Pineda did not stop the IG investigation.

That's a new one. I may think that Hayden was rather venomous on his sites, but never really thought he was a murderous type. Do you have legitimate proof of this from reliable sources? Or are you putting this forth in an effort to discredit Hayden? It's not like there needs to be anything else on him.

4). The person who pushed his termination and removal was upset that Pineda wouldn't authorize a large payment to his friend.

There's another new one. Granted I don't support TP, but his latest actions just don't seem above board to me. But I find it interesting that the major players in his removal just happen to have skeletons of this magnitude.

5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

Never had that idea in the first place, so it wasn't there to reinforce. As far as everything that came out of the woodwork, I figured Pineda was guilty of at least a few. Now you're telling us that he's innocent?

6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

And there are some sides that never will be. Some secrets tend to be kept. It cuts down on too many people having heartburn.

[Eagle400]

I believe that there is a GOB network, but they think they have more power and control than they actually have.

Exhibit A: Tony Pineda

I agree with everything edmo1 said above.  And I believe that most people in the GOB network do more damage to the organization and its people than they realize.  For a lot of them, they are "just following orders."

I'm not defending the GOBN, just letting you all know what I believe to be the case.   

They tend to be the types that have BTDT and don't want to do anything anymore but sit around and talk about those days. They can do that while the rest of us get something done.

That's why they call it the Good Old Boy Network.

I haven't met much resistance in anything that I have done. I get questioned because I am a younger member, but if I can't defend what I am trying to do, I probably shouldn't be doing it.

Just remember that your greatest weapon against the GOBN folks and the bureaucracy folks and the power-hungry folks and soforth is your knowledge of CAP regulations, and the Constitution and Bylaws.  The regulations are your sword; the Constitution and Bylaws are your shield.  Always remember that.

[SDF_Specialist]

Just remember that your greatest weapon against the GOBN folks and the bureaucracy folks and the power-hungry folks and soforth is your knowledge of CAP regulations, and the Constitution and Bylaws.  The regulations are your sword; the Constitution and Bylaws are your shield.  Always remember that.

Good point. The only problem I can see with knowing the regs inside and out is that if you bring up a specific point, you can be told by those higher in the chain that you've interpreted them the wrong way. Then the regs cand be interpreted to accomodate the person that may be in the wrong. Know'em, love'em. Just make sure you've done your homework when you go up against someone who "knows" more than you.

[JohnKachenmeister]

2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

A quick question: Were you present at the proceedings? If not, how do you know? Unless someone is in the middle, they don't really know anything. A lot of the evidence heard may never reach those of us in the trenches.

3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out for making death threats against other members and was upset that Pineda did not stop the IG investigation.

That's a new one. I may think that Hayden was rather venomous on his sites, but never really thought he was a murderous type. Do you have legitimate proof of this from reliable sources? Or are you putting this forth in an effort to discredit Hayden? It's not like there needs to be anything else on him.

4). The person who pushed his termination and removal was upset that Pineda wouldn't authorize a large payment to his friend.

There's another new one. Granted I don't support TP, but his latest actions just don't seem above board to me. But I find it interesting that the major players in his removal just happen to have skeletons of this magnitude.

5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

Never had that idea in the first place, so it wasn't there to reinforce. As far as everything that came out of the woodwork, I figured Pineda was guilty of at least a few. Now you're telling us that he's innocent?

6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

And there are some sides that never will be. Some secrets tend to be kept. It cuts down on too many people having heartburn.

Hawk:

There were no "Death threats."  I personally know the officer who received unprofessional communications from Hayden, and none of them involved death threats.  Insulting?  Yes.  Threatening?  No.

[afgeo4]

Is someone allowed to incorporate an organization with the words "United States something something" in the name without the permission of the United States government? Doesn't this create the image of a federal agency? Doesn't the logo, mission, and uniform create the same misconception?

I think the government will shut this experiment down as soon as it finds out about this. USAF and the DoD would be prudent to do so since the said person was charged with cheating on a USAF exam.

[The Voice of Reason]

FW,

Sounds like you're making excuses for misconduct.

The first sign that you've lost integrity is when you accept excuses from your own side.

There is an established procedure for the removal of the National Commander, it was not followed.

To restore the integrity I and others now question and to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, CAP should initiate a full, no-holds-barred IG investigation to find the culprits or clear its name and produce a full and reliable accounting of the facts.

I am not suggesting that Pineda be reinstated -- the word "Dufus" seems to pop into my head now since hearing about the USRC.

As far as our mission readiness goes; we do the best we can.  In the last 7 years, since 9\11, I haven't heard any major complaints.  It's amazing how a group of volunteers rise to the occasion when needed and stay until the mission is over.

Imagine how much better it would be if the dead weight would just get out of the way and let people get stuff done without all the bowing and ring kissing...

Our K-5 experiment is going well.  In a time when children need something else, CAP gives them something to strive for.  It gives teachers an extra tool to accomplish things not found in a standard curriculum.  

It turns us into the Cub Scouts.

Nothing wrong with the Scouts, it's a fine organization for children, but IT ALREADY EXISTS.  We don't need another.

How often have we heard ourselves or others describing this organization as "Volunteer Search and Rescue" because we're afraid to mention it by name for fear of ridicule?  Isn't that a pretty solid hint at why most people are here?

Charity seems to go hand in hand with publicity... Well, I didn't join so people could tell me what a good little dubie I am, I joined because I totally dig the 3AM phone call.  I get a rush out of the missions.  I prefer not to be recognized, just let me do the work!

Have you read the recruiting literature lately?  It's so polluted with PC buzz words that I'm surprised anyone joins.

Will the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

[DNall]

^ I freakin hate getting called at 3AM for anything - well maybe 50/50 for a hot girl with more beer, but that's at least 50% still not happy wanna go to sleep. You got a non-distress ELT going off? Yeah, there's a few hundred other folks around with thousands of hours less of doing this then me. PLEASE let them take care of the light weight.

As far as that integrity bit... be careful how you swing that around. In this case there were two situations: 1) removal from office, and 2) removal from membership.

The only violation of regs I'm aware of was in granting additional time before a hearing so that an IG investigation could be completed. That delay, in conjunction with pressure of AF doing their own investigation, prompted BoG to remove him from office. The BoG can do just about anything they want & answer only to Congress. That's why they were put there & I believe what happened here was the best possible outcome. If CAP had been left to its own devices (regs), as would have been the case prior to 2000, the AF would have continued to ramp up. The same result would have occurred, but it would have been much worse for our organization & relationship w/ AF. Other then that, I believe regs were pretty well followed.

If you want to get out a fine tooth comb & be real technical & picky about all the minor details, then yeah I'm sure there were some procedural problems. You'll find CAP at large is poor at following out own regs & there are problems at all levels, particularly in disciplinary actions. The AF is better at it with UCMJ & an established judiciary, but they are far from perfect as well. That's not a breach of integrity, it's just sloppy work.

[Hawk200]

There is an established procedure for the removal of the National Commander, it was not followed.

Interesting. You went from "If my understanding is correct..." in your first post to "the established procedure was not followed" in your second.

Either you will in the middle of the proceedings and actually witnessed them, or you're sitting here trying to blow smoke up our tails. Care to enlighten us as to your agenda? Right now, with only two posts, your credibility is zero.

To restore the integrity I and others now question and to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, CAP should initiate a full, no-holds-barred IG investigation to find the culprits or clear its name and produce a full and reliable accounting of the facts.

You and what others? Who are you? And who are the others? It's one thing for a person to say "Yeah, I think things look funny" behind a posting name, it's a horse of a different color to state that "you and others" question the integrity of people you don't know, and we don't even know if you're a member. Are you?

I am not suggesting that Pineda be reinstated -- the word "Dufus" seems to pop into my head now since hearing about the USRC.

Nice to know that not all of your brain cells aren't stuck in "conspiracy theory" mode.

How often have we heard ourselves or others describing this organization as "Volunteer Search and Rescue" because we're afraid to mention it by name for fear of ridicule?  Isn't that a pretty solid hint at why most people are here?

I've never described it as such, and never heard anyone else do so.

Well, I didn't join so people could tell me what a good little dubie I am, I joined because I totally dig the 3AM phone call.  I get a rush out of the missions.  I prefer not to be recognized, just let me do the work!

For someone that doesn't want to be recognized, you have a funny way of "just doing your work".

Have you read the recruiting literature lately?  It's so polluted with PC buzz words that I'm surprised anyone joins.

All recruiting literature is filled with "PC buzzwords". Then again, if you had ever looked at anything else you'd know that.

Will the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

You know, you're starting to sound like that bored little college kid from last summer that started stirring up stupidity because you didn't have anything else to do for the summer. Why'd you bother coming back?

[Cecil DP]

Guys

Tony Pineda is gone!!! Let it go!!