CAP officers saluting military officers

[Camas]

By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.

You won't; it doesn't exist.

[jimmydeanno]

RE: Medal of Honor

It is a military custom for all military personnel to salute MoH recipients.  However, it is argued that the salute is not for the recipeint, but for the medal itself and what it represents.

Since it is a custom, it is covered by our "customs and courtesies" pamphlet.

I have yet to find any regulation or public law that mandates the salute for MoH recipients.  However, I believe it would be rather distasteful for you not to salute someone who has received the HIGHEST military decoration the country can present.

[flyerthom]

Officer Rank insignia:

If you don't like it, buy Golf-shirts and stay away from Cadets.

If you do wear it, try to live up to the ideal. . .  .

I don't know if this is unique to our squadron or if it's CAP wide, but our largest group of Golf shirt people are retired commissoned officers!

I agree though. If you're in a uniform take pride in it and meet the standard. Even then, if your in the Golf Shirt (And I do wear it sometimes) make sure it's neat and clean.

[Stonewall]

I don't know if this is unique to our squadron or if it's CAP wide, but our largest group of Golf shirt people are retired commissoned officers!

Like many things, it varies by squadron.  In DCWG I'd say 90% of our seniors were prior service, retired, active duty, or serving in the guard/reserves.  It was an oddity of sorts to see a senior outside of the military style uniforms.  I'm not talking 3 or 4 seniors, I'm talking closer to the twenties.

The great thing about CAP, and probably one of its downfalls, is that you can do whatever you want and not get in trouble.  You can be as military as you want or the biggest, bearded slouching pro-civilian/anti-military guy you wish to be.  All ya gotta do is show up in a polo shirt and gray slacks and fly.  You'll never have to salute and you can even make fun of the folks who do take the military aspect of CAP seriously.

[JayT]

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

USAFVR(T)?    Where do I collect my commission and pay?

See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.

Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.

[MIKE]

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

USAFVR(T)?    Where do I collect my commission and pay?

See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.

Not to mention the numbers that would be forced to retire from uniformed service at 55. 

[JayT]

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

USAFVR(T)?    Where do I collect my commission and pay?

See, I'm all for that Captain, I think the British model of doing cadets is way better then our system. I to have our officers comissioned, even at the cost of having the bulk of our SMs loss their 'comissions' for enlisted stripes.

Not to mention the numbers that would be forced to retire from uniformed service at 55. 

For those who aren't farmilar, in the British Air Training Corps cadet programs, they're adult officers are part of the RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training). All of their officers hold the Queens comission, and are paid for their service.

However, the bulk of their adult members aren't officers. The first level of adult membership is Civilian Insturctors, who hold no rank, wear no uniform, and are normally recruited to do a certain job within the unit, ie Aerospace Education, etc etc etc.

The next level of membership is the NCO corps. CI's apply to become an Adult Sergeant, which is followed by Adult Flight Sergeant and Adult Warrant Officer. The Adult NCOs are ultimately responsible for disipline, drill, and uniform wear in the unit, althrough its really their job to teach the Cadet NCOs of the unit those skills.

From adult NCOs ranks, adult members can then apply for a comission into the RAF, followed by a week long training course, etc etc.

[jb512]

I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program.  The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.

I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia.  I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc....  I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.

[ZigZag911]

Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.

Then read the pamphlet referred to in earlier posts....that's what it is there for, to ensure that CAP is aware of military customs....this isn't a rule or regulation, it is a standard practice, commonly accepted and expected (much like the non-wearing of ribbons on short sleeve blue shirt by USAF officers).

[ZigZag911]

As far as I know, the RAFVR(T) officers are engaged solely in running their Air Cadets....no SAR/DR/CD/HLS role, aerospace ed only within context of cadet training.....comparing them to CAP is a case of 'apples & oranges', two different organization with different histories and different missions.

The British program is probably more akin to AFJROTC than CAP.

[mikeylikey]

And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia

Wow.....I don't like that.  I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS?  No thank you.  When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!

[mikeylikey]

I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program.  The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.

I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia.  I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc....  I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.

umm......it has been OK for what, 60+ years.  Whats your big problem with it?  thousands of organizations all of this country use it.  Why not keep tradition.  What would you like to see in its place?  Dots and diamonds?  Then people would take us more seriously??

[JayT]

As far as I know, the RAFVR(T) officers are engaged solely in running their Air Cadets....no SAR/DR/CD/HLS role, aerospace ed only within context of cadet training.....comparing them to CAP is a case of 'apples & oranges', two different organization with different histories and different missions.

The British program is probably more akin to AFJROTC than CAP.

Well, the  Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve  itself has an operational mission above and beyond Cadets, but the Training Branch is pure cadets.

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

[sandman]

Not to disrespect Medal of Honor winners, but I'd prefer to see something in writing before I teach my cadets it.

Here ya go dude....

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_030404103648.ppt#263,8,Saluting

http://cadets.ndcap.org/JDCLE/forms/CAPP-151.pdf
or
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503084356.pdf

b. Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of
the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a
greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never
inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules
regarding saluting for CAP members are:
(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.
(2) You salute the President of the United States, all
Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.
(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are
formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.
(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in
both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or
another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this
case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good
Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual
and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but
whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute"
area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute"
areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a
work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail
salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a
sports event.
(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in
government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that
identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers
and military wing or base commanders).
(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute
to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if
they desire.

And some more food for thought....

2. Customs and Courtesies. Military customs and courtesies
are proven traditions that explain what should and should not be
done. They are acts of respect and courtesy in dealing with other
people. They have evolved as a result of the need for order, as
well as the mutual respect and sense of fraternity that exist
among military personnel. The Civil Air Patrol shares in that
tradition.

.....and a hearty salute out to ya'll for doing what you do! Please continue to wear the uniform and rank with pride....salute those wearing rank above your grade...and smartly return salutes offered to you from those junior in grade to yourself....including real military officers and enlisted.

If you're an O-4 wearing your uniform and I walked up to you wearing mine (AD Navy)...I'd give you a salute just out of courtesy and because we're basically on the same team!

Let's put one more thing to rest...about the saluting ALL real military officers even those junior in grade to you....

2) You salute the President of the United States, all
Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and
warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to
you.

That means if you're a 2nd Lt you do not initiate a salute to a warrant officer but you would if you were a CAP non-commissioned officer. You also do not initiate a salute to a real military O-3 if you're a CAP O-4.....are we clear?

/r
LT

[sandman]

Wow.....I don't like that.  I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS?  No thank you.  When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!

Just the other day the Secretary of the Navy visited us here on the USS Peleliu....He is a civilian...just as the President is....and rates not only salutes but bells and gun salutes.

Military members salute civilians as a matter of course. It's not a stretch to have a LTC (Lt Col) salute a CAP member of higher grade. Why all the fuss? A salute is a courtesy similar to a handshake more often than not. While real military members by law are required to render the appropriate C&C to other real military members....you're aforementioned Lt Col may not have to salute a CAP member of higher grade, but would probably do so out of military courtesy. Hence, the Lt Col proves once again that he is an "officer and a gentleman".....something a lot of CAP members could learn something about ....

[JayT]

Hear Hear!

[isuhawkeye]

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

Some would say the same thing about the cadet program in reference to ES

[JayT]

Honestly, I would love to can ES from CAP, or make the Cadet Program completely seperate from CAP as it exist now. I don't think the ES is anything but a drain on the Cadet Program, as far as cadet training goes.

Some would say the same thing about the cadet program in reference to ES

Good. That's their view, and their view is as good as mine.

Which is why I would love to seperate the CP from everything else.

[sandman]

I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program.  The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.

I'm not anti-military rank structure, I'm just not the biggest fan of using commissioned insignia.  I know that ours has been modified to some degree, etc....  I was a cadet, and a cadet officer and the insignia used for that purpose is perfect and definitely necessary for a military style organization.

umm......it has been OK for what, 60+ years.  Whats your big problem with it?  thousands of organizations all of this country use it.  Why not keep tradition.  What would you like to see in its place?  Dots and diamonds?  Then people would take us more seriously??

Exactly....c'mon people, what is your problem? If you don't like wearing the rank then wear the polo shirt! That's the beauty (and in my opinion the biggest problem) of the schizophrenic CAP uniform program.

As a CAP member you wear a uniform of the United States. Many programs us the U.S. rank structure. Wear it with pride!

I hear lurking in the background of these threads the feeling of fear with using the U.S. rank structure. Maybe it's the fear of a few rogue individuals who want to play military by "flexing" their rank and issuing or actually shouting out orders to people or demanding respect and salutes from real military members. Is that what all this is about??

Really now fellow CAP'ers....the likelyhood of that actually happening is just so low. Unfortunatly we have had a high profile case years ago with a certain national commander demanding....what was it.....a general officer parking space or something like that?

And now with security tighter than ever before, you would expect some young real military E-1,2,3 (etc) to know who is in their chain of command and who can give them a direct order. Anything beyond that brings up questions and eventually an investigation resulting in the rogue CAP member being sent to jail (possibly Leavenworth) for impersonating an officer (worst case scenario).

ID cards are checked for everyone. CAC cards are needed for computer access and access to some buildings. Heck, the AF just did away with DOD stickers on vehicles because of security issues.

The point is that if somebody comes up to you wearing officer rank and demands you to follow an order it will be very clear who it is such as: 1) an MP officer with gun/dog/vehicle, 2) Recognized base command officers (pictures everywhere), 3) clearly marked command vehicles with plate on the front and escorts, 4) Situational awareness---you're deployed overseas and your platoon leader issues an order to "take that hill"; You get the idea. Anyone else you can verify by asking who they are and see their ID card and follow up with a phone call to an immediate supervisor.

So, any truth to my opinion about those reluctant to use the U.S. military rank structure? We can ask to use the old soviet rank structure instead--I hear they won't be using it for awhile

v/r
LT

[sandman]

And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia

Wow.....I don't like that.  I understand courtesies and such, but seriously a Lt Col in the Guard (who most likely has a federally recognized commission) to salute CIVILIANS?  No thank you.  When said civilian undertakes what has to be done to become a Commissioned Officer, perhaps......until then, NO!

Sorry mikeylikey....you're my cannon fodder for today!

Just some more "food for thought"; what is a "commissioned officer"?

A little Wiki for ya:

An officer is a member of a military, naval, or if applicable, other uniformed services who holds a position of responsibility.

Commissioned officers derive authority directly from a sovereign power and, as such, hold a commission charging them with the duties and responsibilities of a specific office or position. Commissioned officers are typically the only persons in a military environment able to exercise command (according to the most technical definition of the word) over a military unit.

Begs the question about "sovereign" power then right?

Sovereignty is the exclusive right to complete political (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over an area of governance, people, or oneself.

CAP NHQ anybody?

But don't confuse "sovereignty" with "a sovereign"

A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other, and most often the head of state. Thus the legal maxim, "there is no law without a sovereign."

Sorry TP....

Commissions are held by military and civilian members. A commission can be invested in the individual (uniformed officer, federal judge, police officer, etc) or a group ( the Warren Commission, the Kettl Commission).

So brave souls....are you ready for it? Congradulations! You ARE commissioned officers

Though you receive no monitary instrumentalities as compensation for your service and you commission has no "gravitas" beyond the realm of CAP, you do have a commission. Live with it, wear it with pride, enjoy it! You deserve it.

v/r
LT

I'm on a roll today because I'm no longer a "wog"! I'm reporting aboard this board today as a newly minted "shellback"! Quite a sight to see the Jolly Roger flag fly on a US Navy warship today!!