CAP officers saluting military officers

[RiverAux]

There has been a mini-discusion over on military.com about an issue, but since there are only about 4 people on the CAP board, there isn't much diversity of opinion, so I thought I'd bring this up here:

Do CAP officers
A.  Initiates salutes to all military officers no matter the rank of the officer or the grade of the CAP officer?  OR
B.  Do CAP officers only initiate salutes to military officers whose rank is higher than the CAP officers grade?

In other words, would a CAP Major initiate a salute to an AF 2nd Lt. or only initiate salutes to Lt. Col or higher? 

The relevant document is CAPP 151 which says:

You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

It has been the contention of some that since CAP officers hold "grade" and not "rank" (according to CAPR 35-5) that this passage in 151 means that CAP officers should initiate salutes to all military officers since they all "outrank" us. 

It is my contention that this interpretation doesn't make sense because if it was true and no CAP officer really held rank then a military officer couldn't outrank us.  The sentence assumes that CAP members hold some rank. 

I have always been taught that in CAP you salute those officers whose insignia outranks yours. 

If A is true, then if a CAP Lt. Col. salutes a AF 2nd Lieutenant, that 2nd Lt is going to either think the CAP person doesn't understand basic military saluting rules or assume that the Lt. Col. is just trolling for salutes.  Either way CAP comes out looking bad. 

What do you guys think?

[isuhawkeye]

The Iowa National Guard has made it clear that CAP officers are to aslute officers who wear insignia senior to he officer in question. 

And that National guard officers are to initiate salutes to CAP officers holding appropriate insignia

[MIKE]

In this case I think rank/grade is the same difference.  L2K: AB SE even says that the terms are often used interchangeably despite being defined therein.  So my interpretation is that as a Capt I must initiate salutes to Maj and above, but am not required to initiate salutes to persons of like rank/grade and below.

If you were to go by the L2K: AB SE definition of rank... you would have to know the date of grade of the people of the same grade as yourself to determine who is senior/junior.

[RiverAux]

L2K:AB SE   

[Grumpy]

L2K:AB SE   

Huh???

[Stonewall]

I think it's clear that you would only salute military officers that hold a higher rank than you, the CAP Officer.  

A lot of military officers don't know about CAP or if they do, they aren't clear as to where we stand.  I'm not going to salute a 2nd Lt in the Real Military™and I'm sure he wouldn't expect me to.  As military members are taught to salute officers of foreign allied militaries, I would [loosely] assume they would think similarily about CAP officers.  

My guess is that the military officers that salute me, as a CAP Lt Col, are the ones who don't know anything about CAP.  The ones that don't salute me do know about CAP and purposely don't salute to make sure we know they aren't obligated to do so.

A salute and $9.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.  I'm not too concerned about it and I'm sure most military members aren't either.

[MIKE]

L2K:AB SE   

Huh???

Leadership 2000: And Beyond Second Edition  You want Chapter 1.

[wingnut]

If we begin to Quibble over saluting than we should just remove the uniform. However, on a recent trip to a Military base 90% of the CAP officers were untrained,and  forgot the process of saluting. I braced them in the parking lot and chewed butt. Either we do a better job training our officers or we should end the charade. It is a dishonor to the uniform of the armed sevices to have this happen. And make no mistake about it Civil Air Patrol IS WEARING A UNIFORM OF THE ARMED SERVICES.

Bob Kirby, Captain CAP
Mitchell 1972

[Stonewall]

My experience has been that the CAP senior members that aren't so interested in the military aspect of CAP tend to wear non-military attire, like the blue polo and gray slacks.

All those seniors that I've worked with who wear the military uniform (BDUs or Blues) are generally pretty knowledgable and comfortable with rendering military customs and courtesies, aka saluting.

I think, if you have members in your squadron who do wear military style uniforms, but don't know the ins and outs of military customs and courtesies, there is only one person to blame, their leadership, be it the leadership officers, deputy commander for seniors or squadron commander.

As a squadron commander, I've had new seniors, the ones without prior cadet or military experience, join the Training Flight cadets during their customs and courtesies phase of training.  After that, if there are any other questions, we've done a little C&C training ourselves.

These days, with TLC (Training Leaders of Cadets) there is a block of instruction for military customs and courtesies as it relates to working with cadets.  I personally taught this block at a recent TLC and those seniors seemed genuinely appreciative of having been taught the right way.

[floridacyclist]

We are hitting D&C/C&C pretty hard in our upcoming OTS class. For the first 3 weeks, the new Officer Pre-candidates do nothing but learn how their subordinates are supposed to act; ie how to take orders. After that, we start teaching them about CAP and how to give them while expecting obedience.

[ZigZag911]

I would suggest initiating salutes only for those military officers senior in grade.

The average butterbar has enough troubles without trying to figure out why the captain or major in the odd outfit is saluting him/her!

[jpravain]

or we should end the charade.

Just finally end the rank charade (it doen't mean anything in this organization).

God bless the aircrew that paid the ultimate price for helping another. I would like to know what the preliminary FAA invesitigation states.

[RogueLeader]

Just finally end the rank charade (it doen't mean anything in this organization).

Obviously it DOES. The AF hasn't taken it away from us, so they surely believe it has some value left.  It may not mean much to you, or some people.   I certainly don't think it's a charade.  I'm sorry that you feel this way about it, but I take pride in our history; I don't throw it away because it could be improved.

Semper Vigilans, Semper Fidelis.

ALWAYS Vigilant, and ALWAYS FAITHFUL

[jb512]

I've never been a fan of us using the RM's insignia, but as long as we're wearing it we observe the same customs.  Salute those of higher rank and return the salutes of those with lesser.

[Stonewall]

I think those CAP members who are anti-military rank structure are often those who don't support or care for the cadet program.  The military style rank structure is not so much for the seniors, although it does serve its purpose, it primarily shoes a hierarchy for the cadets to follow.

[aveighter]

The mere fact that personnel present this as a matter of discussion is cause for embarrassment.

[jimmydeanno]

The salute from a CAP Senior members to real officers should be to those of higher grade than the CAP senior.

Some people say "well, they have a comission, so tecnically they ALL have higher grade than us."

We salute because of military tradition.  Military tradition dictates that Captains don't salute 2d Lts.  So it only makes you look dumb if a CAP Major is popping salutes to 2d Lts because they hold a comission.

[JayT]

First off, just because someone holds a comission doesn't mean that they outrank CAP members. While I am conflicted about CAP being a military organization, as long as we wear the uniform, and wear the insignia, we should act like it.

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

By the way, why does CAPP151 say that we're suppose to salute MoH winners? I haven't been able to find anything to that effect in federal law or military protocol books.

[O-Rex]

Officer Rank insignia:

If you don't like it, buy Golf-shirts and stay away from Cadets.

If you do wear it, try to live up to the ideal. . .  .

[MIKE]

So, SM  1st Lieutenant should salute an military Captain/Lieutenant. Should military officers/enlistedmen salute CAP members? I would vote maybe, with a definate yes if we did a massive reoganization of our Senior Member rank structure. But thats another discussion.

USAFVR(T)?    Where do I collect my commission and pay?