CAP Talk

I hate to be the one who brings this kind of thing up, but it looks as though he-who-shall-not-be-named has started his own little club.

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080507072741tsop.nb/newsblaze/WORLDNEW/World-News.html

CRAP.....

Another 3 star [[redacted by admin]] general.  I wonder what this actually will turn out to be. 

So, two stars are not enough, he just gives himself 3. 

This actually makes me a little sick.  I hope this thing fails, and fails quickly.  I hope there is an FBI investigation into this and he goes to prison for something.  HE was not a big enough embarrassment already. 

I am so sorry for all of those that live in Florida, because today your state officially entered the "My state sucks list". 


--Edited for content. --MK

That's it, I'm starting my own organization.  From now on, you may address me as Field Marshal. ;D

Being at a loss for words, all I can say is OMG!!  Does this give anyone a clue as to the caliber of this character, as if anyone doubted??

Um, wow.

Reminds me of the saying, "Those that can, do.  Those that cannot, pretend."

The website is registered to a Kevin Pineda.

US Ranger Corps....  I see he really likes that "US" thing.   Something tells me that CAP medals will be authorized on their uniforms, and their Medals of Valor will bear a striking resemblance to ours.

I'm just suprised he didn't make himself a 4 star.  But the idea of a uniform with losts of gold braid just reeks of a central American general.

I'm kinda wondering about his mental status. He has a full six pack but seems to be lacking the plastic thingy that holds it all together.

BTW...Mikey...good comment!

You know, I am very tempted to blog about this, but it would give the poor guy the attention he must want.  If he really wanted to 'just' help people, join a fire company or rescue squad. 

Cool logo though. 

Quote from: davedove on May 07, 2008, 05:41:27 PM
That's it, I'm starting my own organization.  From now on, you may address me as Field Marshal. ;D

ooo Sounds like fun!

Field Marshal,

Just 2 questions.... What does my CAP rank transfer over to and can I wear my 2 'Brown Star' medals on the uniform? (CAP has repeatedly refused to let me wear them  :()

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:15:33 PM
join a fire company or rescue squad.

The last time I checked they didn't have 3-star Generals   ;D

You have GOT to be chitting me!

Man this guy is some piece of work.

Quote from: captrncap on May 07, 2008, 06:19:06 PM

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:15:33 PM
join a fire company or rescue squad.

The last time I checked they didn't have 3-star Generals   ;D

My point exactly.  ;D

And guys, can we please not take cracks at his ethnicity...it looks unprofessional and reflects poorly on our character as well. 

I wondered how long it would take someone to post this.

Heh.

Wow.

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:21:47 PM

Quote from: captrncap on May 07, 2008, 06:19:06 PM

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:15:33 PM
join a fire company or rescue squad.

The last time I checked they didn't have 3-star Generals   ;D

My point exactly.  ;D

And guys, can we please not take cracks at his ethnicity...it looks unprofessional and reflects poorly on our character as well. 

Where was a crack at ethnicity?

Quote from: davedove on May 07, 2008, 05:41:27 PM
That's it, I'm starting my own organization.  From now on, you may address me as Field Marshal. ;D

Count me in.  I want to be a field marshal too.  Self-appointed even feels all that much better.

Does this mean the Mountain is going to secede and join TP?

LIKEY, was it you I was telling about this before?  Didn't I say that he was going to start his own thing?

Quote from: cnitas on May 07, 2008, 06:25:54 PM

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:21:47 PM

Quote from: captrncap on May 07, 2008, 06:19:06 PM

Quote from: thefischNX01 on May 07, 2008, 06:15:33 PM
join a fire company or rescue squad.

The last time I checked they didn't have 3-star Generals   ;D

My point exactly.  ;D

And guys, can we please not take cracks at his ethnicity...it looks unprofessional and reflects poorly on our character as well. 

Where was a crack at ethnicity?

Up there, regarding the uniforms for the new organization and his new rank.

(I will admit I laughed...)

http://usrangercorps.us/images/ID_card.jpg

This just in:

The Senior Members of the US Ranger Corps announce to a small crowd in Florida that they have launched a new internet discussion forum that will be dedicated completely to the discussion of uniforms, medals, ribbon, uniforms, shoes, uniforms, and changes to uniforms.  
The program offers a youth aspect as well, (pictured in back) and that their primary focus will be using the cadets for horrible uniform and test wear experiments.  Yes, cadets can wear ribbons too.  Every Senior member comes in as a Major General, with the rank of Commander being Lt. General.
Please contact us for information on our latest uniform modeling show.  

PS.  We dont know what any of these badges mean, but they sure look good.

Quote from: D2SK on May 07, 2008, 06:37:01 PM
http://usrangercorps.us/images/ID_card.jpg

???

Signiture? Is it Corp or Corps? LOL

Woooooow.

Quote from: D2SK on May 07, 2008, 06:37:01 PM
http://usrangercorps.us/images/ID_card.jpg

I was just looking in that directory myself.

(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/ID_card.jpg)

From "Client Testimonials" at http://www.mediadevise.com
United States Ranger Corps

We are a new organization who needed a top notch site with all the design elements to attract the attention we needed. Mediadevise delivered just that. They created a great looking site with both a public access and a full internal members only section where our subscribers can easily gain organization news, events and more. Thank you for such a wonderful product and a great price!

- W. Lynch
-------------------
From the website http://www.kevinpineda.com
A new website I have been working on now for a while is almost complete and ready for release. The United States Ranger Corps. is a volunteer organization who specialize in working with governmental entities, law enforcement and others, who perform search and rescue missions, community service and much more. Be sure to check back here to visit the site when its complete.
-------------------
From the Articles of Incorporation filed with the State of Florida:
Article III
The specific purpose for which this corporation is organized is:
To enhance support during disasters and to aide (sic) the communities of the United States, to provide a learning environment for their members which will involve leadership, communications and emergency services.

Mike

An online news service

http://newsblaze.com/story/20080507072741tsop.nb/newsblaze/WORLDNEW/World-News.html

reports that an ousted former CAP Commander has formed his own organization, the USA Ranger Corps, and appointed himself a lieutenant general.

I don't know whether this is a spoof or not.

This reminds me of the McDonald's ripoff, "McDowell's," in Coming to America. They had the "Big Mick."

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/McDowellsFacade.jpg)

Reminds me of something that happened to Camarillo Composite Squadron 61 (PCR-CA-204) ten years ago.

There were some officers in that unit who were allowing the cadet staff to haze and emotionally abuse cadets.   This went on for at least a year, and when CAWG Central Coast Group IV finally found out about it, the officers who allowed the hazing and emotional abuse to happen "laywered up" and managed to get out of their impending 2b's.

Following that, they left CAP and formed their own group called the Ventura Military Explorers.  This resulted in a leadership vaccum at CAP Squadron 61, and at least 80% of the CAP cadets left CAP to join VME.  VME was originally very similar to the U.S. Ranger Corps.  It was autonomous, created by disgruntled former CAP members, wore military (Army) uniforms without authorization, allowed its members to wear ribbons earned in CAP, had no charter as a Boy Scout Explorer Post, and encouraged its cadets to participate in emotional abuse and hazing.  

Within time, VME gained a charter as a Boy Scouts Explorer Post and was no longer autonomous.  However, abuse and hazing were still occuring within the group and there was still friction between VME and CAP Squadron 61.  There were even reports of VME cadets throwing rocks at CAP cadets as they ran by their meeting place while participating in the mile run.  

Just recently, command of VME was handed over from one of the two former CAP senior members who were almost 2b'd to a California Army National Guard Captain, who welcomed the opportunity for VME to dual-charter with CAP Squadron 61.  The dual-charter was approved, and now VME is part of CAP Squadron 61.

I am not sure how well VME has improved since they dual-chartered with CAP Squadron 61, but I know for a fact that the 2 former disgruntled senior members who founded VME are still in VME and are actively participating with CAP Squadron 61.      

Here are two different accounts of concerns regarding the Ventura Military Explorers:

http://vc.yourhub.com/Camarillo/Stories/News/About-Town/Story~334043.aspx

http://amybranham.blogspot.com/2007/07/younger-and-younger-twelve-year-old.html

And of course, there is the VME website:

http://my.enom.com/5004/page99.htm

Great....looks like some new fun in my backyard...please excuse me while I make phone calls to the local Sheriff, Mayor, County Exec, and EOC.  :-\

Corporate filing (http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?action=DETFIL&inq_doc_number=N08000000158&inq_came_from=NAMFWD&cor_web_names_seq_number=0000&names_name_ind=N&names_cor_number=&names_name_seq=&names_name_ind=&names_comp_name=USRANGERCORPS&names_filing_type=) 

Article IV is precious:

"The manner in which directors are elected or appointed is:

       ANTONIO J. PINEDA"



However I do NOT see any documentation stating that he's made himself any particular grade.


Edited for URL length/tags --MK

Man, this guy is whacked.  Can someone just put a muzzle and leash on him. 


I took a quick look over his "Articles of Incorporation" and it's a total joke.  While yes it's off the Floridia Website, I've got a good idea that they'll deny them.  I've got some familiarity with how they're supposed to be set up and I have to say his looks like they were written by a 5-year old.  He obviously did them himself without help from an attorney.

Anyone can file papers with the state to form a corporation. Now, whether it'll get 501(c)3 status with the IRS, etc. is another question entirely.

Quote from: Captain B on May 07, 2008, 07:55:34 PM
Anyone can file papers with the state to form a corporation. Now, whether it'll get 501(c)3 status with the IRS, etc. is another question entirely.

True but the state has to also approve those papers that are filed.  Just because they get filed doesn't mean that they'll be accepted.

This must be Pineda's group here in the picture:

http://www.community.ups.com/downloads/pdfs/VSRCbrochure.pdf

>:D

:clap:
That's probably all he'll get any way.  >:D

I like how he has "U.S. Ranger Corps. (TM)" Like he actually trademarked the name...sorry...no such trademark exists (I looked) anyone wants to really mess with him could trademark it....  >:D

Well I googled it and found this group

http://www.civilranger.com/

I think he might have some trouble.  Anyone want to drop a dime  to them?

They don't look like the types that would even find out about his group let alone take him to court over it.

Do we know if Courter kept the black van?  If so, we have an address for it to go to to make a "pick up."

oooo    ooooo  oooooo

I wanna be LEFT REAR FACING FRONT COMMODORE.......I will wear 2 1/2 stars on the sleeves with captain bars on the collars, and service stripes in yellow running down the rear of my uniform shirt........


and the salute.....you gotta love the salute.......

a [censored] slap to the face........

Wonderful. This is just what we all need. I fear that I must discontinue wear of my Corporate Uniform for fear of being confused with the US Ranger Corp. Effective immediately, you will find me lounging in my BDUs until I retire from CAP, or get off my butt, and lose the weight I need to to get back into blues.

Quotea [censored] slap to the face........

I would salute you sir, but I am unfamiliar with your rank. Is that anything like Corporal Captain? :D

Cadets of the US Ranger Corps practice techniques for locating and securing ELTs.

Haha. Now if you go to the /images directory within their website, it informs you that your IP has been logged and sent to an administrator.

Quote from: Captain B on May 07, 2008, 09:51:11 PM
Haha. Now if you go to the /images directory within their website, it informs you that your IP has been logged and sent to an administrator.

Same thing happened to me!  Darn!  Does that mean I'm going to get on a junk mail list!!?? >:D

First of all , I think its inproper for a CADET to comment on a Senior member or even ex Senior Member, we do not teach our young people to ridicule people whether EX MEMBERS OR NON MEMBERS. It is not a cadet value to start up or get involved in gossip, controversy, or talking about people. But I guess different people train their cadets differently. I for one would never want any of my cadets to even get involved in gossip or redicule. What kind of cadet are we mentoring and developing in today's CAP? Are we teaching cadets to be respectful of people wheather they deserve that respect or not or are we teaching them its ok to make fun of people?

Secondly, Who cares if Pineda is a Three star general. Police Chiefs and Sheriffs manke themselves three and four star Generals all the time. A police Chief of a 22 person police department wil make himself a four star just  like the police Chief of a 2000 person department, but you guys dont seem to mention that. So, basically who cares?

Let the man be. he isnt bothering anyone. I dont know him. Only seen him in passing a few times.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 07, 2008, 05:42:20 PM
Um, wow.

Reminds me of the saying, "Those that can, do.  Those that cannot, pretend."

The website is registered to a Kevin Pineda.

I say that about some CAP members all the time. Hoooah

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 07, 2008, 05:59:27 PM
US Ranger Corps....  I see he really likes that "US" thing.   Something tells me that CAP medals will be authorized on their uniforms, and their Medals of Valor will bear a striking resemblance to ours.

"US" is so that they aren't confused with the Brazilian Ranger Corps  >:D

Quote from: Captain B on May 07, 2008, 06:41:06 PM

Quote from: D2SK on May 07, 2008, 06:37:01 PM
http://usrangercorps.us/images/ID_card.jpg

???

Signiture? Is it Corp or Corps? LOL

Woooooow.

I think its "Corpse"

Quote from: BigMojo on May 07, 2008, 08:26:35 PM
I like how he has "U.S. Ranger Corps. (TM)" Like he actually trademarked the name...sorry...no such trademark exists (I looked) anyone wants to really mess with him could trademark it....  >:D

TM is used for unregistered trademarks.  (R) is used for registered trademarks, so while tacky, and while it should probably be a Service Mark, it is a perfectly legal way of doing it.

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 07, 2008, 10:13:52 PM
First of all , I think its inproper for a CADET to comment on a Senior member or even ex Senior Member, we do not teach our young people to ridicule people whether EX MEMBERS OR NON MEMBERS.

First of all, this is the United States of America.  People can comment on whomever they want to comment on, Cadet or Adult alike.  Second, Pineda is a private Citizen running a public group, we all can comment as much as we possibly can on him and his organization.

Third from your post, I think you are in fact Tony Pineda.  The truth finally comes out.......

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 07, 2008, 10:13:52 PM
First of all , I think its inproper for a CADET to comment on a Senior member or even ex Senior Member, we do not teach our young people to ridicule people whether EX MEMBERS OR NON MEMBERS. It is not a cadet value to start up or get involved in gossip, controversy, or talking about people. But I guess different people train their cadets differently. I for one would never want any of my cadets to even get involved in gossip or redicule. What kind of cadet are we mentoring and developing in today's CAP? Are we teaching cadets to be respectful of people wheather they deserve that respect or not or are we teaching them its ok to make fun of people?

Secondly, Who cares if Pineda is a Three star general. Police Chiefs and Sheriffs manke themselves three and four star Generals all the time. A police Chief of a 22 person police department wil make himself a four star just  like the police Chief of a 2000 person department, but you guys dont seem to mention that. So, basically who cares?

Let the man be. he isnt bothering anyone. I dont know him. Only seen him in passing a few times.

That has got to be one of the worst analogies I have heard.  They use the same symbol.  But I've never heard of a Chief refer to themselves as "General". And their "rank" actually has a government appointed authority that comes along with it.  Additionally, I don't know of any self appointed police chiefs or sheriff's.

You guys aint gonna believe this, but...

We had a nitwit who tried to get into CAP but was rejected because of several felony convictions.

He is a "Colonel" in the Ranger Corps, and has teenagers over to his house almost every weekend for "Training."

It never ends.

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 07, 2008, 10:13:52 PM
Let the man be. he isnt bothering anyone. I dont know him. Only seen him in passing a few times.

He will be...my group, especially, since he's in our backyard.

JC004, you are correct. TM is also used for trademarks on file with the patent office (I do 3-4 of these a month in my day job). I checked and he hasn't filed any applications for a trademark.

Quote from: BigMojo on May 08, 2008, 12:00:27 AM
...
JC004, you are correct. TM is also used for trademarks on file with the patent office (I do 3-4 of these a month in my day job). I checked and he hasn't filed any applications for a trademark.

That too.  We don't do as many as you (mostly just copyright registrations on stuff), but I was just saying that he isn't breaking any laws by claiming a common law trademark, like if you claim copyright on your web site or whatever, but don't file.  The dumb use of TM (which I've rarely, rarely ever seen in a non-profit logo) is not even worth mentioning, really.  The whole thing is silly enough.  We have other things to laugh about.  Like the proposed uniforms, I'm sure.   :)   :D

Quote from: Captain B on May 07, 2008, 09:51:11 PM
Haha. Now if you go to the /images directory within their website, it informs you that your IP has been logged and sent to an administrator.

Yeah - it's called the web server log.

Is that supposed to scare someone?

Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 08, 2008, 12:47:17 AM

Quote from: Captain B on May 07, 2008, 09:51:11 PM
Haha. Now if you go to the /images directory within their website, it informs you that your IP has been logged and sent to an administrator.

Yeah - it's called the web server log.

Is that supposed to scare someone?

I'm shaking in my boots here.  It's not like you can't get IP addresses of your visitors anyway.   :-\

When someone hits a 404 on my web sites, I get an e-mail (or ticket, depending on the site), and I get the IP address in the report, along with other information that I use to determine what's going on.  What am I gonna do with that information?  Call the cops?   8)  I get hacking attempts on them all the time.  Big deal.  You ain't getting in, trust me.   :)

^^ you caught me trying to get into the super secret section of the wing website again!

Quote from: Tubacap on May 08, 2008, 12:59:12 AM
^^ you caught me trying to get into the super secret section of the wing website again!

actually, I don't have that feature on the wing site at the moment.  That's on my paid sites, which have a more sophisticated system than I can do with our current configuration on PAWG at the moment.  PAWG is moving to a CMS once I get the appropriate person to install that, and we don't have custom 404's on there at the moment either.  That will change, though, once I get everyone's piece together.  I bet you still won't find my super secret directories for storing my images, draft pages, and personal control panel, though.   :P

Quote from: JC004 on May 08, 2008, 12:50:14 AM

I'm shaking in my boots here.  It's not like you can't get IP addresses of your visitors anyway.   :-\

Precisely.  Besides, it's not like the images aren't sitting in everyone's browser caches.   <yawn>


(Yes, an IT Security type here)

At the risk of hijacking this very interesting thread.  What does a GTE Cybertrust Root Certificate do?  It apparently is causing a problem to stop working at work (Microsoft forced upgrade).  Would enabling this certificate cause a security issue?

The Cybertrust Root is sort of like the Death Star, designed as a doomsday revenge weapon by the Dark Lord of the Rangers.

But, will my tech guy call on the USRC to come and format my harddrive?

Quote from: Tubacap on May 08, 2008, 01:44:46 AM
But, will my tech guy call on the USRC to come and format my harddrive?

I'm guessing that is among their missions.

I am embarrassed for us all, this guy is a piece of  XXXX, and I want to know how anyone can go from captain to Col in 4 years (his Friends did), that too is pathetic. I say trash the rank system in CAP and we all go back to warrant officer, it is becoming honorary, like the old Confederate Air Force.

Yes Colonel, why Colonel have you emptied the trash? Yes Colonel, are you going to mail that Letter? Colonel? yes Colonel, Let's all become General!

Why that's a good Idea! General. . . Yes General! have you talked to General ?

I am sick, got to PUKE

wtf...is there some conspiracy now?

(http://jcolgan004.googlepages.com/corporations.jpg)

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 07, 2008, 10:13:52 PM
First of all , I think its inproper for a CADET to comment on a Senior member or even ex Senior Member, we do not teach our young people to ridicule people whether EX MEMBERS OR NON MEMBERS. It is not a cadet value to start up or get involved in gossip, controversy, or talking about people. But I guess different people train their cadets differently. I for one would never want any of my cadets to even get involved in gossip or redicule. What kind of cadet are we mentoring and developing in today's CAP? Are we teaching cadets to be respectful of people wheather they deserve that respect or not or are we teaching them its ok to make fun of people?

Me and SARKID are on here all the time.  I understand that cadets in general may not understand the full picture on an issue, and just getting pieces from here may not be beneficial, but a cadet has a right to know what's going on in his/her organization.  Plus, I'd say this helps develop a cadet's understanding of the big picture issues and can be a life lesson sometime in his/her life. 

QuoteMe and SARKID are on here all the time.  I understand that cadets in general may not understand the full picture on an issue, and just getting pieces from here may not be beneficial, but a cadet has a right to know what's going on in his/her organization.  Plus, I'd say this helps develop a cadet's understanding of the big picture issues and can be a life lesson sometime in his/her life. 

Thank you CASH, I agree.  To flyguy, rebuttal PM sent.

As for Pineda, I really don't mind if he wants to start his own little club.  Yeah, you'd think I'd think otherwise having been the one to start this thread.  As long as his people and our people are able to coexist peacefully, and neither side spikes the others kool-aid, It'll be alright.

Ummm... Lock.

Hey guys,

I'm new to this forum, but something you might want to consider:

1). CAP is and has been rife with political intrigue for decades, probably from the very beginning.  The incident with Pineda only proves that the bull[mess] goes right to the very top.

2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out [[redacted for COC]].

4). [[redacted for COC]]

5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

I'm not saying Pineda was completely right, or even one of the "good guys" -- he may have been just as bad or worse.

Now, that having been said, the USRC seems like it's been created in yet another round of oneupmanship.  Pineda has appointed himself a 3 star general where the highest rank in CAP is only 2 stars, etc.

So much for the "benefit of the doubt."

Because of it's governmental backing and whatnot, CAP has a distinct advantage over any upstart organization with similar goals, but if Pineda and crew have something to contribute, let them give it a shot.  Either they'll fall flat on their faces and go away for good, or they'll give CAP a run for its money and the competition will force us to improve.

Personally, it makes me cringe, but what's worse is the behavior I've seen on this site.  Conduct unbecoming for sure.

What kind of image and example are you setting?  This site can be viewed by the general public and frankly, most of you have been making jackasses out of yourselves.  The one voice I heard suggesting people act with a little decorum was squelched with hostility by insolent brats.

What really needs to happen with CAP is the Air Force has to step in and clean house.  Most Wings pass their SAR EVAL's with flying colors ONLY because they know when the evaluation period will be and have their select few buddies take days off from work and hang around waiting to respond.

Many people who achieve in this organization don't want to allow others to achieve similarly because it makes them less special by comparison.

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

What if part of keeping your ratings was that as part of the renewal process you -had- to get someone certified or get a waiver for why you didn't?

CAP-USAF, run a no-notice SAREX in the middle of the week.  In the absence of that, without warning, put ALL of the initial participants aside and say "OK, what else you got?" and see what they come up with.  It's usually the same bunch of people every time, so they don't have to train others.

And for God Sake, Stop reaching down to recruit children!!!

There is a difference between Children and Cadets.  There should be NO CHILDREN in this organization.

With all the pictures of young children on the cover of the Volunteer magazine, I was starting to wonder if they were familiar with the CPPT, especially that part about perverts trying to find legitimate access to children, and moreover, who exactly were they trying to recruit with it?

If I didn't know how great this organization can be from my service decades ago, seeing the Volunteer would be enough to prevent me from joining.

Just some thoughts for consideration...

[edited for profanity filter circumvention - Mod (MC)]

Quote from: MIKE on May 08, 2008, 03:11:35 AM
Ummm... Lock.

I merged the two topics on the same subject. After removing the over-the-line posts, this thread is provisionally open, but being watched closely.  Please, folks, keep it professional.  This is not the water cooler or locker room; this is a professional discussion board.

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 07, 2008, 11:35:47 PM

That has got to be one of the worst analogies I have heard.  They use the same symbol.  But I've never heard of a Chief refer to themselves as "General". And their "rank" actually has a government appointed authority that comes along with it.  Additionally, I don't know of any self appointed police chiefs or sheriff's.

This guy came close, read to the bottom:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_State_Helicopters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_State_Helicopters)

I'm not interested in other similar organizations (new or established).  I'm interested in CAP;  it's care and good feeding.

Why and how we lost our previous national commander is  the business of our Board of Governors.  They have authority granted by congress to govern CAP.  They are not bound by the Constitution and Bylaws of the organization.  They govern by majority vote and, a majority decided to terminate his membership.  End of story.  

Politics and intrigue are part of every group. People get advanced degrees and make great careers on this truth and, to say we can be free of this is unrealistic.

National Staff has control of the media machine?  OK,  Mr. Pineda or anyone else may register on "CAPTALK" and present an alternate view.  

As far as our mission readiness goes; we do the best we can.  In the last 7 years, since 9\11, I haven't heard any major complaints.  It's amazing how a group of volunteers rise to the occasion when needed and stay until the mission is over.

Our K-5 experiment is going well.  In a time when children need something else, CAP gives them something to strive for.  It gives teachers an extra tool to accomplish things not found in a standard curriculum.  

What's nice about CAP is almost anyone can contribute.  We just need to learn, train and do.  Yes, it's not so easy.  Just don't blame "bloated bureaucrats".  NHQ is dedicated to the volunteers.  The volunteer leadership is dedicated to the membership and the betterment of CAP.  Any one who says otherwise is misinformed or worse.  If there is an exception, it will be taken care of (see paragraph 2).  

I've also been a member of CAP for decades.  I'm just as proud to be a member as when I was a cadet.  Things are different but not worse.  In fact, I think we're doing better now than at almost any time since WW2.  Just my opinion.  

So, if another organization is formed, that's fine with me.  It will not effect anything I do.  CAP will survive quite well.  We've got things to do and I'll just stay focused on my little corner of the universe.  Thank you very much.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

Quote from: star1151 on May 08, 2008, 08:51:22 PM

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

I would challenge this viewpoint since I have not found that to be case....and I am not in some "good ole' boy" network.  In each CAP endeavor I have been involved in for the past 12 years, there has been support not suppression.

Quote from: Chappie on May 08, 2008, 08:59:27 PM

Quote from: star1151 on May 08, 2008, 08:51:22 PM

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM

This organization is chock full of people who want to contribute but can't because the bloated bureaucrats of the good ole' boy network bog them down with unnecessary administrative hurdles to keep them from competing.

So true.  Unfortunately, this isn't something that will ever change.

I would challenge this viewpoint since I have not found that to be case....and I am not in some "good ole' boy" network.  In each CAP endeavor I have been involved in for the past 12 years, there has been support not suppression.

I believe that there is a GOB network, but they think they have more power and control than they actually have. They tend to be the types that have BTDT and don't want to do anything anymore but sit around and talk about those days. They can do that while the rest of us get something done.

I haven't met much resistance in anything that I have done. I get questioned because I am a younger member, but if I can't defend what I am trying to do, I probably shouldn't be doing it.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

A quick question: Were you present at the proceedings? If not, how do you know? Unless someone is in the middle, they don't really know anything. A lot of the evidence heard may never reach those of us in the trenches.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out for making death threats against other members and was upset that Pineda did not stop the IG investigation.

That's a new one. I may think that Hayden was rather venomous on his sites, but never really thought he was a murderous type. Do you have legitimate proof of this from reliable sources? Or are you putting this forth in an effort to discredit Hayden? It's not like there needs to be anything else on him.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM4). The person who pushed his termination and removal was upset that Pineda wouldn't authorize a large payment to his friend.

There's another new one. Granted I don't support TP, but his latest actions just don't seem above board to me. But I find it interesting that the major players in his removal just happen to have skeletons of this magnitude.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

Never had that idea in the first place, so it wasn't there to reinforce. As far as everything that came out of the woodwork, I figured Pineda was guilty of at least a few. Now you're telling us that he's innocent?

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

And there are some sides that never will be. Some secrets tend to be kept. It cuts down on too many people having heartburn.

Quote from: edmo1 on May 08, 2008, 09:27:10 PMI believe that there is a GOB network, but they think they have more power and control than they actually have.

Exhibit A: Tony Pineda

I agree with everything edmo1 said above.  And I believe that most people in the GOB network do more damage to the organization and its people than they realize.  For a lot of them, they are "just following orders."

I'm not defending the GOBN, just letting you all know what I believe to be the case.   

Quote from: edmo1 on May 08, 2008, 09:27:10 PMThey tend to be the types that have BTDT and don't want to do anything anymore but sit around and talk about those days. They can do that while the rest of us get something done.

That's why they call it the Good Old Boy Network.

Quote from: edmo1 on May 08, 2008, 09:27:10 PMI haven't met much resistance in anything that I have done. I get questioned because I am a younger member, but if I can't defend what I am trying to do, I probably shouldn't be doing it.

Just remember that your greatest weapon against the GOBN folks and the bureaucracy folks and the power-hungry folks and soforth is your knowledge of CAP regulations, and the Constitution and Bylaws.  The regulations are your sword; the Constitution and Bylaws are your shield.  Always remember that.

Quote from: CCSE on May 09, 2008, 12:30:55 AM
Just remember that your greatest weapon against the GOBN folks and the bureaucracy folks and the power-hungry folks and soforth is your knowledge of CAP regulations, and the Constitution and Bylaws.  The regulations are your sword; the Constitution and Bylaws are your shield.  Always remember that.

Good point. The only problem I can see with knowing the regs inside and out is that if you bring up a specific point, you can be told by those higher in the chain that you've interpreted them the wrong way. Then the regs cand be interpreted to accomodate the person that may be in the wrong. Know'em, love'em. Just make sure you've done your homework when you go up against someone who "knows" more than you.

Quote from: Hawk200 on May 09, 2008, 12:19:48 AM

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
2). If my understanding is correct, proper procedures for his removal were not followed.

A quick question: Were you present at the proceedings? If not, how do you know? Unless someone is in the middle, they don't really know anything. A lot of the evidence heard may never reach those of us in the trenches.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM3). The person who claimed he took the tests for Pineda was kicked out for making death threats against other members and was upset that Pineda did not stop the IG investigation.

That's a new one. I may think that Hayden was rather venomous on his sites, but never really thought he was a murderous type. Do you have legitimate proof of this from reliable sources? Or are you putting this forth in an effort to discredit Hayden? It's not like there needs to be anything else on him.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM4). The person who pushed his termination and removal was upset that Pineda wouldn't authorize a large payment to his friend.

There's another new one. Granted I don't support TP, but his latest actions just don't seem above board to me. But I find it interesting that the major players in his removal just happen to have skeletons of this magnitude.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM5). The snubbing and visible intrigue by the national staff only reinforces the idea that it was a political hatchet job.

Never had that idea in the first place, so it wasn't there to reinforce. As far as everything that came out of the woodwork, I figured Pineda was guilty of at least a few. Now you're telling us that he's innocent?

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 08, 2008, 06:53:47 PM6). The current staff has control of the media machine and it's fair to say that only one side of the issue has been aired.

And there are some sides that never will be. Some secrets tend to be kept. It cuts down on too many people having heartburn.

Hawk:

There were no "Death threats."  I personally know the officer who received unprofessional communications from Hayden, and none of them involved death threats.  Insulting?  Yes.  Threatening?  No.

Is someone allowed to incorporate an organization with the words "United States something something" in the name without the permission of the United States government? Doesn't this create the image of a federal agency? Doesn't the logo, mission, and uniform create the same misconception?

I think the government will shut this experiment down as soon as it finds out about this. USAF and the DoD would be prudent to do so since the said person was charged with cheating on a USAF exam.

FW,

Sounds like you're making excuses for misconduct.

The first sign that you've lost integrity is when you accept excuses from your own side.

There is an established procedure for the removal of the National Commander, it was not followed.

To restore the integrity I and others now question and to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, CAP should initiate a full, no-holds-barred IG investigation to find the culprits or clear its name and produce a full and reliable accounting of the facts.

I am not suggesting that Pineda be reinstated -- the word "Dufus" seems to pop into my head now since hearing about the USRC.

Quote from: FW on May 08, 2008, 08:29:57 PM
As far as our mission readiness goes; we do the best we can.  In the last 7 years, since 9\11, I haven't heard any major complaints.  It's amazing how a group of volunteers rise to the occasion when needed and stay until the mission is over.

Imagine how much better it would be if the dead weight would just get out of the way and let people get stuff done without all the bowing and ring kissing...

Quote from: FW on May 08, 2008, 08:29:57 PM
Our K-5 experiment is going well.  In a time when children need something else, CAP gives them something to strive for.  It gives teachers an extra tool to accomplish things not found in a standard curriculum.  

It turns us into the Cub Scouts.

Nothing wrong with the Scouts, it's a fine organization for children, but IT ALREADY EXISTS.  We don't need another.

How often have we heard ourselves or others describing this organization as "Volunteer Search and Rescue" because we're afraid to mention it by name for fear of ridicule?  Isn't that a pretty solid hint at why most people are here?

Charity seems to go hand in hand with publicity... Well, I didn't join so people could tell me what a good little dubie I am, I joined because I totally dig the 3AM phone call.  I get a rush out of the missions.  I prefer not to be recognized, just let me do the work!

Have you read the recruiting literature lately?  It's so polluted with PC buzz words that I'm surprised anyone joins.

Will the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

^ I freakin hate getting called at 3AM for anything - well maybe 50/50 for a hot girl with more beer, but that's at least 50% still not happy wanna go to sleep. You got a non-distress ELT going off? Yeah, there's a few hundred other folks around with thousands of hours less of doing this then me. PLEASE let them take care of the light weight.

As far as that integrity bit... be careful how you swing that around. In this case there were two situations: 1) removal from office, and 2) removal from membership.

The only violation of regs I'm aware of was in granting additional time before a hearing so that an IG investigation could be completed. That delay, in conjunction with pressure of AF doing their own investigation, prompted BoG to remove him from office. The BoG can do just about anything they want & answer only to Congress. That's why they were put there & I believe what happened here was the best possible outcome. If CAP had been left to its own devices (regs), as would have been the case prior to 2000, the AF would have continued to ramp up. The same result would have occurred, but it would have been much worse for our organization & relationship w/ AF. Other then that, I believe regs were pretty well followed.

If you want to get out a fine tooth comb & be real technical & picky about all the minor details, then yeah I'm sure there were some procedural problems. You'll find CAP at large is poor at following out own regs & there are problems at all levels, particularly in disciplinary actions. The AF is better at it with UCMJ & an established judiciary, but they are far from perfect as well. That's not a breach of integrity, it's just sloppy work.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AM
There is an established procedure for the removal of the National Commander, it was not followed.

Interesting. You went from "If my understanding is correct..." in your first post to "the established procedure was not followed" in your second.

Either you will in the middle of the proceedings and actually witnessed them, or you're sitting here trying to blow smoke up our tails. Care to enlighten us as to your agenda? Right now, with only two posts, your credibility is zero.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AM
To restore the integrity I and others now question and to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, CAP should initiate a full, no-holds-barred IG investigation to find the culprits or clear its name and produce a full and reliable accounting of the facts.

You and what others? Who are you? And who are the others? It's one thing for a person to say "Yeah, I think things look funny" behind a posting name, it's a horse of a different color to state that "you and others" question the integrity of people you don't know, and we don't even know if you're a member. Are you?

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AM
I am not suggesting that Pineda be reinstated -- the word "Dufus" seems to pop into my head now since hearing about the USRC.

Nice to know that not all of your brain cells aren't stuck in "conspiracy theory" mode.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AM
How often have we heard ourselves or others describing this organization as "Volunteer Search and Rescue" because we're afraid to mention it by name for fear of ridicule?  Isn't that a pretty solid hint at why most people are here?

I've never described it as such, and never heard anyone else do so.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AMWell, I didn't join so people could tell me what a good little dubie I am, I joined because I totally dig the 3AM phone call.  I get a rush out of the missions.  I prefer not to be recognized, just let me do the work!

For someone that doesn't want to be recognized, you have a funny way of "just doing your work".

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AMHave you read the recruiting literature lately?  It's so polluted with PC buzz words that I'm surprised anyone joins.

All recruiting literature is filled with "PC buzzwords". Then again, if you had ever looked at anything else you'd know that.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AMWill the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

You know, you're starting to sound like that bored little college kid from last summer that started stirring up stupidity because you didn't have anything else to do for the summer. Why'd you bother coming back?

Guys

Tony Pineda is gone!!! Let it go!!

^Yep.

Voice, If you are/were a member, you are living in the past.  CAP is not the organization you think it is or was.  

It isn't the "dead weight" holding members back.  It's people who continually attempt to mold CAP into their own image.  

If you have problems with the Board of Governors, go to your congressman.  

The Air Force controlls 4 members of the BoG.  Let them influence the other 7.

From my perspective, I see no misconduct on the part of the BoG.  I see no integrity loss and I make no excuses.  I'm just stating the way it is.  

In the last 9 months, CAP has undergone some very positive changes.  Some are readily apparent, some will take time to gel.  In any event, we move forward and will secede in our efforts.  As I stated in my previous post;  I will remain focused on my little corner of the universe.  

The government appears not to have control of "United States something". For example. United States Olympic Committee, or United States Steel.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 06:12:09 AM
There is an established procedure for the removal of the National Commander, it was not followed.

The established procedure of which you speak is in regulations.  But the former National Commander was removed by the Board of Governors, established by Congress and answerable only to them -- not to the membership of CAP nor the Air Force.  They made the call that Mr. Pineda had to go; the way things are set up, it's not the privilege of the rank-and-file to question it.  Salute and execute, you know.

Quote
Will the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

Why?  What is so seriously out of whack that you think Big Brother Blue needs to apply the Board of Education to CAP?  Because the BoG did their jobs? 

Seems like somebody needs a reality check.

Jack

QuoteWill the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

Not ten years ago we had a full scale FBI raid with Air Force, and congressional intervention. 

How many times does the Air force have to bail CAP out of its own messes

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 09, 2008, 05:30:59 AM
Is someone allowed to incorporate an organization with the words "United States something something" in the name without the permission of the United States government? Doesn't this create the image of a federal agency? Doesn't the logo, mission, and uniform create the same misconception?

I think the government will shut this experiment down as soon as it finds out about this. USAF and the DOD would be prudent to do so since the said person was charged with cheating on a USAF exam.

USAF and DOD have nothing to do with his group.  In fact, I can start a group called the "US Air Force Boys Club" and get away with it.  Now....if he wants to wear Army Uniforms, all he has to do is make sure there are no "federal monikers" on said uniform and they can't do anything about it.  Look at the American Cadet Alliance.   

Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 09, 2008, 12:08:24 PM

QuoteWill the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

Not ten years ago we had a full scale FBI raid with Air Force, and congressional intervention. 

And that is the reason we have the BoG to begin with!

Also, I see this discussion heading down in flames quickly som I'm going to step in before Mike hits that lock button I know he's itching to hit.   ;)

From the Membership Code of Conduct:

Members will not attempt to circumvent the profanity filter.  There is a filter in place which attempts to prevent the most objectionable words from being posted on the site.  Any extensive use of blocked words or attempts to circumvent the filter with alternate spellings, characters, or by other means is not acceptable.
 
Members will not engage in libel, slander, name-calling, or personal attacks.  Members will not post any hateful material about any person, unit, or organization.  There is a line between leadership examples and scenarios, or having constructive discussions about problems without naming names, and attacking others outright.  Personal threats are also strictly prohibited.

Members violating the code of conduct may be subject to any number of sanctions, including but not limited to: warnings, temporary suspension of posting privileges or account, temporary restrictions from certain forums, public admonition, alteration of post count and/or user rank, account deletion, and permanant ban from the discussion boards. 

Members are solely responsible for the content of their own posts and hereby release the discussion board, its administrators, moderators, staff, superiors, subordinates, affiliates, officers, employees, workers, family members, executors, and other associated persons from any liability and hold them harmless from any claim or demand, regardless.

Quote from: CAPSGT on May 09, 2008, 12:22:34 PM

Quote from: isuhawkeye on May 09, 2008, 12:08:24 PM

QuoteWill the Air Force PLEASE step in and get this house in order!?!

Not ten years ago we had a full scale FBI raid with Air Force, and congressional intervention. 

And that is the reason we have the BoG to begin with!

Also, I see this discussion heading down in flames quickly som I'm going to step in before Mike hits that lock button I know he's itching to hit.   ;)

From the Membership Code of Conduct:

Members will not attempt to circumvent the profanity filter.  There is a filter in place which attempts to prevent the most objectionable words from being posted on the site.  Any extensive use of blocked words or attempts to circumvent the filter with alternate spellings, characters, or by other means is not acceptable.
 
Members will not engage in libel, slander, name-calling, or personal attacks.  Members will not post any hateful material about any person, unit, or organization.  There is a line between leadership examples and scenarios, or having constructive discussions about problems without naming names, and attacking others outright.  Personal threats are also strictly prohibited.

Members violating the code of conduct may be subject to any number of sanctions, including but not limited to: warnings, temporary suspension of posting privileges or account, temporary restrictions from certain forums, public admonition, alteration of post count and/or user rank, account deletion, and permanant ban from the discussion boards. 

Members are solely responsible for the content of their own posts and hereby release the discussion board, its administrators, moderators, staff, superiors, subordinates, affiliates, officers, employees, workers, family members, executors, and other associated persons from any liability and hold them harmless from any claim or demand, regardless.

Are you trying to say there was no FBI raid, and the poster made that comment up?  Cause I do believe it did happen. 

Also, what post offends you specifically, be nice to know which one so we don't reference it or make a similar post.   ;)

I'm not sure what this is all about.  Did my post offend someone, or did I say something inappropriate?

^ I don't think so.......I was also confused. 

Sorry, I was trying to make one post as opposed to 2 completely separate posts.  Yes, the FBI raid happened and that is why we have the BoG to begin with.

As for my referencing the MCOC I'm not going to name names or cite posts, but intentionally adding a couple letters to prevent the profanity filters from triggering is a no no.  It's there for a reason.  Also, remember that if you are going to fully accuse somebody of something (without qualifying it with something like "allegedly") you should have something to back your statements up.

A lot has been discussed since I last logged in yesterday and I just wanted to offer a friendly reminder to everyone before this one gets too ugly and gets locked.....again

^ Gotcha 

Quote from: Cecil DP on May 09, 2008, 08:33:36 AM
Guys

Tony Pineda is gone!!! Let it go!!

Ditto.  :clap:  Lot's of other things and issues that need working on.

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 09, 2008, 05:30:59 AM
Is someone allowed to incorporate an organization with the words "United States something something" in the name without the permission of the United States government? Doesn't this create the image of a federal agency? Doesn't the logo, mission, and uniform create the same misconception?

Yes, they are, and yes, it can cause confusion based on the name.   Here in Tampa there is a "United States Cleaners" and a "United States Adjusters".  I've received mail from the "United States Tax Service" (or something similar) offering to do my taxes, and I've seen several other government-sounding companies sending mail marked "OFFICIAL USE ONLY" -- a ploy to get you to open it instead of tossing it.   

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 09, 2008, 05:30:59 AM
I think the government will shut this experiment down as soon as it finds out about this. USAF and the DoD would be prudent to do so since the said person was charged with cheating on a USAF exam.

Unless there is already a "U.S. Ranger Corps" that exists as a legitimate government entity, I don't see what grounds they have to do anything about it.    It's a private corporation that is apparently not violating any U.S. law. 

I've seen similar things happen in the Amateur Radio Emergency Service where disenfranchised members go out and create a similarly-purposed group with an official-sounding name, then contact the "customers" and offer their competing services.    In most cases, this isn't an issue since the customer simply states that they already have such a service from ARES and don't need another, but it does cause confusion and lots of phone calls.   

But aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?   We don't know what the goal of this new organization is.  It might be completely complimentary to CAP instead of competitive.    It might have a very local focus instead of a National one.   We don't even have any real information that Mr. Pineda has made himself a Lt. General, and yet we're all posting here as if this was all verified fact. 

Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 09, 2008, 01:58:57 PM

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 09, 2008, 05:30:59 AM
I think the government will shut this experiment down as soon as it finds out about this. USAF and the DoD would be prudent to do so since the said person was charged with cheating on a USAF exam.

Unless there is already a "U.S. Ranger Corps" that exists as a legitimate government entity, I don't see what grounds they have to do anything about it.    It's a private corporation that is apparently not violating any U.S. law. 

I've seen similar things happen in the Amateur Radio Emergency Service where disenfranchised members go out and create a similarly-purposed group with an official-sounding name, then contact the "customers" and offer their competing services.    In most cases, this isn't an issue since the customer simply states that they already have such a service from ARES and don't need another, but it does cause confusion and lots of phone calls.   

But aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?   We don't know what the goal of this new organization is.  It might be completely complimentary to CAP instead of competitive.    It might have a very local focus instead of a National one.   We don't even have any real information that Mr. Pineda has made himself a Lt. General, and yet we're all posting here as if this was all verified fact. 

Well the issue why they could get all over He Who Must Not be Named is if his uniforms are in any way similiar to the Army as has been previously stated.  So if he's taking current Army Uniform and making his own version if you will the Department of the Army can be all over him. 

^No.  As long as there is no Army or federal insignia on the uniform, groups are allowed to use the Army Uniform for their own endeavors.

You can take the Army Dress Green Uniform, and remove the "US" cutouts, and Army buttons, and use the uniform for whatever you want. 

I again make reference to the American Cadet Alliance.  Their uniforms are so very close to an Actual Army uniform it is distgusting.  From five feet away you can not tell the difference between one of their Officers and an Army Officer.  That is why I always find it so funny the AF throws a hissy fit when it comes to the AF-style CAP uniform. 

But you have to admit from the experience we've had in our program he will try and make it look as like the Army as possible.  Espeically the cutouts, I mean he doesn't want to be confused for the as yet to be formed "Brazilian Ranger Corps". 

^ Nice.....and you are most likely right! 

It's amusing that this organization touts its ethics and core values and whatnot, yet:

1). If Pineda was a little goofy, why was he able to make it to the top in the first place?
2). Pineda was removed as the direct result of a complaint by a person who was kicked out of the program and who was upset that Pineda wouldn't stop the IG investigation against him.

Yes, swift action must be taken to keep our Air Force brothers happy, but in a case of that magnitude, special care must be taken to ensure that every action taken was strictly in accordance with the regulations, that way there is no quesition of fairness or due process later.

I also found it interesting that when the status quo was challenged, the discussion turned from the issues at hand to personal attacks.

No, I am not the bored college kid from whenever.  I became aware of this forum for the first time when I heard about the US Ranger Corps, googled it, and the results lead me here.  As of the time I click on "Post", this will be my 3rd message ever posted under this or any name.

I was not present when he was removed but I've read the relevant parts of the constitution and bylaws and I know the procedures for removal of the National commander were ignored.


For clarification:

Despite its many many problems, I love this organization and I want to see it achieve its full potential.

I am not pro-Pineda per se, I just think the situation was handled very badly on all sides, and to maintain integrity corrective action must be taken.

With his law enforcement background, Pineda may have brought an attitude that he has a "right to be in charge" with him that may have rubbed people the wrong way (don't know, never met him).  Either way, even if his name were cleared completely, he is damaged goods now.

In my opinion, much of the discussion on this forum about this subject has been in poor taste and bad judgement.

I think the USRC is silly, will amount to nothing and is not a threat to this organization.  I also believe that if he wants to give it a go, let him.  There's nothing he can do to threaten this organization so why worry?

I am disappointed by the overall level of maturity displayed on this forum.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PM
I am disappointed by the overall level of maturity displayed on this forum.

:-*

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PM
It's amusing that this organization touts its ethics and core values and whatnot, yet:

1). If Pineda was a little goofy, why was he able to make it to the top in the first place?
2). Pineda was removed as the direct result of a complaint by a person who was kicked out of the program and who was upset that Pineda wouldn't stop the IG investigation against him.

We're still talking about this?  I realize you're new to CAPTalk, but literally this subject matter has been beaten to death in this discussion community here with thousands of posts.  Pretty much all of us have moved beyond the Pineda fiasco.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PM
Yes, swift action must be taken to keep our Air Force brothers happy, but in a case of that magnitude, special care must be taken to ensure that every action taken was strictly in accordance with the regulations, that way there is no quesition of fairness or due process later.

The BoG is not bound by CAP regulations, thus they did not need to be followed.  There was no impropriety, nor the appearance of it.  The BoG was within their powers and rights to do what they did.  The BoG is responsible directly to Congress and was empowered by Congress to do pretty much anything needed with CAP. 

If the United States Congress said in their official capacity "Civil Air Patrol, you need to do this."  CAP members can't reply to Congress and say "Well, wait, we have a regulation we made ourselves that says we can't do that!"  Uhh... right. 

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PMI also found it interesting that when the status quo was challenged, the discussion turned from the issues at hand to personal attacks.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PMI am disappointed by the overall level of maturity displayed on this forum.

You're not the only disappointed one.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 09, 2008, 04:44:45 PM
I think the USRC is silly, will amount to nothing and is not a threat to this organization.  I also believe that if he wants to give it a go, let him.  There's nothing he can do to threaten this organization so why worry?

So why are we still discussing it?  The horse is long dead, beaten beyond recognition and yet people are still handing out clubs to the crowd.  Why?

well

I guess we have poor taste and bad judgement, BUT I flew 40 missions, 200 flight hours for CAP, The USAF, and other agencies. I first joined CAP in 1971, USAF Veteran, US Army reserve, 40% disabled veteran.

I am ashamed at the embarrassments laid on us by our leadership, I like many experienced members have "STOPPED recruiting new members until this "THING" we are going through stops or improves.

besides, to blog seems to be the only place we can get our beefs out, going up the chain "DOES NOT WORK!  Why?? because there is a DISCONNECT from the people on the ground and doing the SAR. Is this a leadership issue??

I don't think the Pineda deal was a leadership issue. It was more of a not using your common sense issue. I've made my comments about TP, and the USRC. But hands down, I don't see where he was a bad National Commander other than tampering with the uniforms constantly, and having someone else do something that was unethical. I think maybe the stars did go to his head. I remember my cadet days (which weren't that long ago) when BG Bowling was the National Commander. I personally wrote this man a letter to tell him that I was thrilled to be a member of CAP. He hand wrote a letter back to me to thank me for my service, and offer a few encouraging words. It's not a leadership issue. It's a self-esteem issue. That's my just my opinion.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PM
I don't think the Pineda deal was a leadership issue.

Sure it was.  How did Pineda make FLWG/CC, SER/CC and CAP/CC?  The leaders above him did not do their jobs and when they saw the warning signs, they turned the other cheek. 

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMIt was more of a not using your common sense issue. I've made my comments about TP, and the USRC. But hands down, I don't see where he was a bad National Commander other than tampering with the uniforms constantly, and having someone else do something that was unethical.

I believe it was a matter of poor common sense and poor leadership, both of which were equally prominent.

If you believe TP was a bad (if not downright terrible) leader only because of his constant tampering with uniforms and direct involvement in the "testingate" scandal, you have not seen the whole story.  TP is a classic example of an autocratic, arrogant, selfish and malevolent leader who is absolutely corrupted with power and obsessed with having control over others.  Hmmm... what other leaders in history have we seen who were the same way?  I can think of a few right off the top of my head.   

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMI think maybe the stars did go to his head.

Oh, you think?

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMI remember my cadet days (which weren't that long ago) when BG Bowling was the National Commander. I personally wrote this man a letter to tell him that I was thrilled to be a member of CAP. He hand wrote a letter back to me to thank me for my service, and offer a few encouraging words.

I remember my cadet days (which also weren't that long ago) when I saw Brig Gen Bowling at COS, in person.  I personally did everything I could to stay away from him and have him be out of my sight.  If you want to know why, please PM me.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMIt's not a leadership issue. It's a self-esteem issue. That's my just my opinion.

I'm sure that's what many lawyers defending criminal masterminds say, too.

Quote from: CCSE on May 09, 2008, 08:02:45 PM

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMTP is a classic example of an autocratic, arrogant, selfish and malevolent leader who is absolutely corrupted with power and obsessed with having control over others. 

Power corrupts all and absolute power currupts absolutely

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PM
I don't think the Pineda deal was a leadership issue. It was more of a not using your common sense issue. I've made my comments about TP, and the USRC. But hands down, I don't see where he was a bad National Commander other than tampering with the uniforms constantly, and having someone else do something that was unethical. I think maybe the stars did go to his head. I remember my cadet days (which weren't that long ago) when BG Bowling was the National Commander. I personally wrote this man a letter to tell him that I was thrilled to be a member of CAP. He hand wrote a letter back to me to thank me for my service, and offer a few encouraging words. It's not a leadership issue. It's a self-esteem issue. That's my just my opinion.

I agree with your comments Re: Maj Gen Bowling. I met him about two years ago here in Nashville for...something, got to talk with him for a few minutes, real nice down to earth guy.

Quote from: CCSE on May 09, 2008, 08:02:45 PM

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PM
I don't think the Pineda deal was a leadership issue.

Sure it was.  How did Pineda make FLWG/CC, SER/CC and CAP/CC?  The leaders above him did not do their jobs and when they saw the warning signs, they turned the other cheek. 

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMIt was more of a not using your common sense issue. I've made my comments about TP, and the USRC. But hands down, I don't see where he was a bad National Commander other than tampering with the uniforms constantly, and having someone else do something that was unethical.

I believe it was a matter of poor common sense and poor leadership, both of which were equally prominent.

If you believe TP was a bad (if not downright terrible) leader only because of his constant tampering with uniforms and direct involvement in the "testingate" scandal, you have not seen the whole story.  TP is a classic example of an autocratic, arrogant, selfish and malevolent leader who is absolutely corrupted with power and obsessed with having control over others.  Hmmm... what other leaders in history have we seen who were the same way?  I can think of a few right off the top of my head.   

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMI think maybe the stars did go to his head.

Oh, you think?

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMI remember my cadet days (which weren't that long ago) when BG Bowling was the National Commander. I personally wrote this man a letter to tell him that I was thrilled to be a member of CAP. He hand wrote a letter back to me to thank me for my service, and offer a few encouraging words.

I remember my cadet days (which also weren't that long ago) when I saw Brig Gen Bowling at COS, in person.  I personally did everything I could to stay away from him and have him be out of my sight.  If you want to know why, please PM me.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 07:06:29 PMIt's not a leadership issue. It's a self-esteem issue. That's my just my opinion.

I'm sure that's what many lawyers defending criminal masterminds say, too.

PM sent.

All I can say is that this is going to make for one interesting "case study" either for "Flight Time" (Values for Living) or NSC in the years to come.  ::)

Quote from: CCSE on Yesterday at 07:14:54 PM in Felons Supervising Minors: Is It Legal?Well that is what happens with renegade militias.  Because they have no one to answer to, their leaders do as they please.  And because TP is a power-hungry sycophant, he will continue to do as he pleases until he is backed into a corner for which there is no escape.

Perhaps this example of extreme arrogance and autocratic style of leadership should become part of the Moral Leadership curricula...

Quote from: Chappie on May 09, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
All I can say is that this is going to make for one interesting "case study" either for "Flight Time" (Values for Living) or NSC in the years to come.  ::)

I sincerely hope so.

Quote from: Chappie on May 09, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
All I can say is that this is going to make for one interesting "case study" either for "Flight Time" (Values for Living) or NSC in the years to come.  ::)

Well what I'm not understanding is why weren't federal charges brought against him? I mean he did cheat on a test that is offered by the USAF. I would think that if you opt to take a test offered by the AF, you have to abide by their rules while you are enrolled in that course. I'm glad the situation is over, and hope that CAP can rebound in a positive way from what has been done. I strongly think that BG Courter will turn the organization around for the better. You know what they say; don't knock it until you've tried it.  ;D

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on May 09, 2008, 11:40:37 PM

Quote from: Chappie on May 09, 2008, 11:11:42 PM
All I can say is that this is going to make for one interesting "case study" either for "Flight Time" (Values for Living) or NSC in the years to come.  ::)

Well what I'm not understanding is why weren't federal charges brought against him? I mean he did cheat on a test that is offered by the USAF. I would think that if you opt to take a test offered by the AF, you have to abide by their rules while you are enrolled in that course. I'm glad the situation is over, and hope that CAP can rebound in a positive way from what has been done. I strongly think that BG Courter will turn the organization around for the better. You know what they say; don't knock it until you've tried it.  ;D

I am looking at seeing something along the lines of the "Bud Holland - B52 Crash @ Fairchild AFB" where the culture is examined that allowed for the tragedy to occur.   The case study should not be a "finger pointing" - investigation as to who did what and when (Did the BOG overstep their bonds?  Why were no charges filed? Etc.)...but along the lines of how does an individual or organization get themselves into such a mess to begin with.  It is my personal opinion that the end result of this sad incident in our organization began at the lower level (i.e. squadron and manifested itself at group/wing/region) before it affected national.  Something like this does not occur overnight.  Certain behaviors/attitudes had to be overlooked.

^^^ That would require the organization to actually critique itself....  something I have never sean

QuoteI am looking at seeing something along the lines of the "Bud Holland - B52 Crash @ Fairchild AFB"

Darker Shades of Blue: A Case Study of Failed Leadership (http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm) By Major Tony Kern

^I just read that for a class!

One of the issues that touches all other issues, whether it is the quality of members recruited, operational capabilities, organizational prestige, etc., is that the leadership has to take stock of what it is.

To review, CAP started out as a way for concerned citizens to contribute to the war effort.  Membership peaked at around 150K at a time when standards were at their highest, and the missions were most vital.  After the war they took away the munitions and the funding, and it began to settle down to the mid 50K range where it has hovered since that time.

Well intentioned leaders have attempted to increase the membership numbers but every gain would be lost the following year when it came time to renew.  Rather than keep the standards high and keep the organization on the leading edge, standards were relaxed, age requirements were reduced, and the organization kept reaching down.

The fact seems to be that except in the case of a terrorist attack or a new war, the numbers are going to remain right about where they are, but when you reach down the best people leave.  There are a LOT of people in my neck of the woods who won't even think about joining because CAP has taken on a pedophile edge with all the pictures of very young children on the magazine.

I don't want to mediate a fight over which power ranger is the best.  I am proud to belong to the organization that the Air Force calls FIRST when a plane goes down.  I'm not here to play with the kids.

When the members are too young, you can't treat them like young adults, you're forced to treat them like children.  You're forced to accomodate childish things, and you'll scare off a great many adults.

There was a time when, after a particularly messy mission, you might be able to say "Hey, butch up!" and it was fine.  Now we've got these sissy teams (CISM) running around patting everyone on the bum and saying there there, it's okay to cry.

Baloney!

IF someone is legitimately screwed up because of what they've experienced, get them the assistance they need, but don't promote that kind of weakness.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 09:24:19 AM
There are a LOT of people in my neck of the woods who won't even think about joining because CAP has taken on a pedophile edge with all the pictures of very young children on the magazine.

Only someone with a sick mind would make such a statement. If the people "in your neck of the woods" are thinking this, then maybe don't belong in the organization in the first place.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 09:24:19 AM


The fact seems to be that except in the case of a terrorist attack or a new war, the numbers are going to remain right about where they are, but when you reach down the best people leave.  There are a LOT of people in my neck of the woods who won't even think about joining because CAP has taken on a pedophile edge with all the pictures of very young children on the magazine.

I don't want to mediate a fight over which power ranger is the best.  I am proud to belong to the organization that the Air Force calls FIRST when a plane goes down.  I'm not here to play with the kids.

When the members are too young, you can't treat them like young adults, you're forced to treat them like children.  You're forced to accomodate childish things, and you'll scare off a great many adults.

There was a time when, after a particularly messy mission, you might be able to say "Hey, butch up!" and it was fine.  Now we've got these sissy teams (CISM) running around patting everyone on the bum and saying there there, it's okay to cry.

Baloney!

IF someone is legitimately screwed up because of what they've experienced, get them the assistance they need, but don't promote that kind of weakness.

Voice,

I'm throwing the BS flag.

LOTS of people have never read the CAP volunteer or even seen the cover. There have been perhaps 2 issues IIRC where small children have been on the cover of the Volunteer, kids in the elementary school pilot programs. Anyone who sees pedophilia in this organization by simply seeing a kid on the cover of a magazine is nuts.

Based on the animosity you appear to have for young people in CAP I would venture to say that there aren't LOTS of people you know with these opinions, just you making an inference.

That and your comments on ES and CISM leave me to question your maturity and ES experience. The cadet program is 1/3 of CAP's mission. Another 1/3 is ES. Yes, both ES and Cadet programs work together. Either learn to deal with it or leave. Taking it all into consideration, feel free to choose the latter.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 09:24:19 AM
One of the issues that touches all other issues, whether it is the quality of members recruited, operational capabilities, organizational prestige, etc., is that the leadership has to take stock of what it is ...

... I am proud to belong to the organization that the Air Force calls FIRST when a plane goes down.  I'm not here to play with the kids.

... There was a time when, after a particularly messy mission, you might be able to say "Hey, butch up!" and it was fine.  Now we've got these sissy teams (CISM) running around patting everyone on the bum and saying there there, it's okay to cry.

Baloney!

IF someone is legitimately screwed up because of what they've experienced, get them the assistance they need, but don't promote that kind of weakness.

Another sadly uninformed rant against membership care through CISM.

Although there are some legitimate academic debates about what sort of crisis support should normatively be provided our membership (and the rest of the civilian emergency services community and the post-combat military), e.g. the Mitchell Model, NOVA, etc., there's little doubt that such programs do improve personnel retention and morale; at least from the line-personnel's perspective. They tell us (CISM team members) that the interventions helped them. That's significant in my book.

Before finally retiring my Paramedic license a year ago, I spent almost 30 years in EMS and the fire service. I have worked as a volunteer medic in a rural area, I have worked as a flight paramedic for a Trauma Center-based helicopter EMS service, and for a paid-professional municipal EMS. I speak from experience. Until my retirement in January of this year, I was also a CAP Incident Commander, GTL, GTM-1, former Squadron Commander, etc.. Again, I speak from (nearly 23 years of CAP) experience.

I recall in the pre-CISM era (late 1970's and through most of the 1980's ... I was in EMS then) that the buzzword in such ES circles was "burnout." This was another word for cumulative stress and its degrading effects on a person's outlook and quality of life. We are talking courageous and seasoned firefighters and paramedics (not crybabies and sissy's) as the the self-proclaimed "Voice of Reason" opined.

During that era, the Emergency Services (EMS, Fire Svc, Law Enforcement) lost a lot of folks to burnout and related issues (e.g. addictions and stress-related/exacerbated health problems) before we learned that the "Hey, butch up!" threat/challenge/ridicule rarely made anything/anyone really "fine." It simply taught them to hide, bury, cover-up NORMAL human biophysicological-indocrinological reactions to EXTRAORDINARY events (which are the everyday world of ES professionals) until these reactions (combined) began to destroy the person from within (e.g. "burn-out").

Then we would lose a valuable, experienced lifesaver because we refused to support he/she in lieu of ridicule and enforced stoicism.

CISM (and the related stress-management programs, and there are a number of them) are nothing less than preventive maintenance for CAP's (and the civilian emergency services) most valuable asset, it's members. It's analogous to an A&P mechanic stop-drilling a stress-crack on an aircraft after a turbulent flight. It's maintaining operational assets.

This has nothing to do with crying or not being "butch" enough (whatever that means ... sounds a bit homophobic, to me). Strong and weak people cry. Stress affects everyone, just in a variety of ways. Being affected by pain, tragedy, or stress is not a matter of gender, testosterone, sexual orientation, religious belief, ethnicity, or military bearing ... it is nothing less than a matter of being human.

CISM and operational stress management are OPERATIONAL concerns (not feel-good touches). Hopefully no one would deny a hot cadet or officer adequate hydration while she/he worked a flightline in blazing sun and suffocating summer heat. Likewise we shouldn't deny or ridicule CAP's offering of requisite emotional support and stress relief to our personnel as well.

To this end, it is an ill-conceived and tragic mistake that CAP's "Interim National Commander" has seen fit to further blur and mitigate the operational import/focus of CISM by removing it from the operations hierarchy at NHQ and relegating it to the "Twilight Zone" of health services.

Her ignorance has likely doomed a valuable program and fed more wrong stereotypes (e.g. "The Voice of Reason") and hurt CAP's membership henceforth. But what's so new about a Nat'l CC hurting the membership or the organization through his/her actions or inactions? But I digress ...

One general's foolishness aside, --MR./Ms Voice of Reason-- CISM is NOT a program in and for "sissy's" (whatever that actually means??), it's not in/for cry-babies (again, is it wrong for a CAP member to cry?) ... it exists to support vital emergency services personnel doing critical, painful, emotionally draining, and courageous work for people (even critics like you) in some of the most difficult and dangerous circumstances imaginable. I think they, and their CAP counterparts, deserve your praise and admiration, not your vitriolic ridicule.

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 09:24:19 AM
One of the issues that touches all other issues, whether it is the quality of members recruited, operational capabilities, organizational prestige, etc., is that the leadership has to take stock of what it is.

To review, CAP started out as a way for concerned citizens to contribute to the war effort.  Membership peaked at around 150K at a time when standards were at their highest, and the missions were most vital.  After the war they took away the munitions and the funding, and it began to settle down to the mid 50K range where it has hovered since that time.

Well intentioned leaders have attempted to increase the membership numbers but every gain would be lost the following year when it came time to renew.  Rather than keep the standards high and keep the organization on the leading edge, standards were relaxed, age requirements were reduced, and the organization kept reaching down.

The fact seems to be that except in the case of a terrorist attack or a new war, the numbers are going to remain right about where they are, but when you reach down the best people leave.  There are a LOT of people in my neck of the woods who won't even think about joining because CAP has taken on a pedophile edge with all the pictures of very young children on the magazine.

I don't want to mediate a fight over which power ranger is the best.  I am proud to belong to the organization that the Air Force calls FIRST when a plane goes down.  I'm not here to play with the kids.

When the members are too young, you can't treat them like young adults, you're forced to treat them like children.  You're forced to accomodate childish things, and you'll scare off a great many adults.

There was a time when, after a particularly messy mission, you might be able to say "Hey, butch up!" and it was fine.  Now we've got these sissy teams (CISM) running around patting everyone on the bum and saying there there, it's okay to cry.

Baloney!

IF someone is legitimately screwed up because of what they've experienced, get them the assistance they need, but don't promote that kind of weakness.

Right.

Because CAP is the only organization in the world who developed a CISM program. Every major police, EMS, fire, SAR, and military organization in the world must be wrong, and a bunch of sissys.

Grow up.

CISM is hardly a "sissy team patting everyone on the bum."   My question is, how old are you and what is your experience with CISM in the real world.  Have you ever been part of a CISM debrief?  Have you ever been part of a traumatic event that involved many people from varying experienced backgrounds where people are standing around with blank looks on their faces because of what just happened? 
Your description of it clearly illustrates that you have no idea what it is about.  Referring to it as "promoting weakness" is an irresponsible comment.  I would invite you to meet some of the people I work with and tell them they are "sissy's".  Telling people who deal with trauma as a profession "Hey, butch up" (whatever that means)  is what causes those same professionals to bring their problems home.  It starts affecting their families, their personal lives.
I had a trainee who began tearing up on a call.  I told him, "Now isn't the time.  Pull yourself together." Much different then telling someone to suck it up.
Later, he was able to talk to a counselor and took the rest of the day off.  A dad had accidentally backed over his 3 year old son in the driveway and killed him. That was probably 5 years ago and he is now a training officer and a SWAT member, and went on to get his EMT license.  Weak?

I have known seasoned EMS/Police who have retired medically because of traumatic events they were involved in.  Soldiers coming back from war suffering from PTSD, are they promoting weakness when they ask for help because they cant sleep?  An EMS person who can't talk to his own kids without tearing up because of a work related incident involving a child of the same age.  Weakness?

So again, what is your experience that allows you to call stress management "promoting weakness"?

If we were in Iraq with roadside bombs ready to go off without warning or snipers lurking in the shadows waiting to take a shot, CISM would have a more solid foundation in this organization.

To me it just looks like someone with an outside specialty wanted to make a name for themselves in the organization.

I did acknowledge that there may be cases where it is called for, but having it all the time everywhere is like putting on surgical gloves every time you want to shake hands.

I also noticed a strange but common phenomenon in this message thread;

I do not like the way this organization is being turned into a kids club, I oppose the aspects of it that make a CPPT necessary (not the cadet program, but the way they keep tailoring the program to children -- No "Children" in this organization, only Seniors and Cadets).  Now because I voice my opinion some of you are as much as making accusations that could get you removed from the program and open you up to SEVERE civil liability.

This is especially bizarre since I am the one suggesting the organization take steps to maintain its integrity, avoid the appearance of impropriety and maintain high standards so people have something to "shoot" for when they get older and YOU (the people making the accusations) are in favor of cozying up to the "K-5" crowd.

Is this what psychiatrists call "Reaction formation"?

By the way, I was at ground zero NYC while the dust was still settling.

Many (but not all) of the people suffering from "burnout" have just found a way to retire early.

If they couldn't handle the job, they should've found a desk somewhere.

The kind of people who "burn out" are usually the "look at me" crowd anyway.  It's just another way for them to illustrate how great their contribution has been -- "I gave everything I had and look how much they took!" and so forth.

I'm guessing there are lots of Ltc's and Headquarters types in here...

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 07:20:14 PM
By the way, I was at ground zero NYC while the dust was still settling.

Many (but not all) of the people suffering from "burnout" have just found a way to retire early.

If they couldn't handle the job, they should've found a desk somewhere.

The kind of people who "burn out" are usually the "look at me" crowd anyway.  It's just another way for them to illustrate how great their contribution has been -- "I gave everything I had and look how much they took!" and so forth.

I'm guessing there are lots of Ltc's and Headquarters types in here...

You are so off base, it makes me sick. 

CISM has a place here because as a majority, I would say most of our members arent equipped with the tools, nor the resources necessary to deal with trauma. Most of our membes, in their daily lives, probably have nothing to do with EMS or SAR. In that case, they may come across something that they were never equipped or trained to deal with. FOr example, a burned body, someone killed in a plane crash.  These incidents can have images that go beyond even what Hollywood could even imagine.

So again, what do you do in your civilian world that qualifies you to suggest that CISM has no place and is for "sissy's"? 

I will tell you, when I was a young gung ho cop, I didnt need anybodies help, and I wasnt about to ask anyone for help with anything.  My attitude was that if you cant handle it, get a job somewhere else.  11 years later and a lot of growing up, my attitude as just about changed 180 degrees. 


Many (but not all) of the people suffering from "burnout" have just found a way to retire early.

If they couldn't handle the job, they should've found a desk somewhere.

The kind of people who "burn out" are usually the "look at me" crowd anyway.  It's just another way for them to illustrate how great their contribution has been -- "I gave everything I had and look how much they took!" and so forth.

I'm guessing there are lots of Ltc's and Headquarters types in here...



What foundation and experience brought you to this conclusion?  The few people I know who had to retire in this manner werent out looking for attention.  It pretty much ruined their lives long before they were able to retire. 

This issue isnt even about police or EMS.  It is about dealing with CAP members with issues they may not normally be trained to handle, nor have the resources to get help if they need it. 

May I offer a more current idea on the Post Traumatic Stress concept. First of all it is good to know that the word "ignorant" and "ignore" come from the same root for a reason. Ignorant initially did not mean "without knowledge" instead, it meant "someone who did not want to know." It meant an act of Commision, not Omission. It was a person who ignored information, knowledge, or understanding.
My point is: Those that do NOT know sometimes have their own personal reasons. Often it is because, PT Stress for instance, is not a thing that is easily analyzed in the field, or in themselves. So buck-up and proceed is often a good idea -- in the field. The mission must go on. Everyone is scared, exhausted, and bruised -- take it, or forget it. Do your job. Carry-on! Shell Shock, Battle Fatigue, being on high alert, and scared to death can all look the same. All can come and go. All can be uncontrollable. Even the term; Carry-on implies a burden, a load... not just a duty, more than proceed, more than just go. As in, Bear-your-burden, NOT Bare-your-burden.

However, in certain circumstances one can be overtaken by flashbacks. Talk therapy will take care of most of this... sometimes medication is involved. AND, sometimes hospitalization. It can be for reasons that don't seem all that terrible. Often it is a collection of various psychic injuries that pile up and collide in one frightful moment. Sometimes even psychologists who listen to stories of abuse or trauma all day get PTSD... but don't see the trauma it causes to themselves.
I've talked to Medal of Honor Award-ees, War Heroes, Generals, Privates, and even nurses behind the lines that only saw the trauma of battle. I ask... "How often to you think about that battle... or event?" Almost all will say I thought about it an hour ago... dreamed about it last night, or I can't stop thinking about it.
Those that hide their own trauma are more likely to be dismissive of PTSD in others. They are bucking-up.

Those that had to mask it in the field because they were under the "Buck-up" field order don't see that they themselves are close to breaking down, producing injury in their civilian life, or kicking the dog for reasons they don't understand. What is interesting is... once they are separated from the event and the events location -- They are no longer under the "buck-up" order. There is no longer a good reason to remain "ignorant."

There comes a time to NOT Carry-on, to unburden, to unload. You can do it in an orderly progressive manner -- OR by over-drinking, taking drugs, hyperventilating, suicide, or having a heart attack. However, somewhere along the line we all stop "carrying-on." We all unburden. CISM is orderly unburdening. It is just an extension of "I had a tough day and I'd like to tell you about it" taken to the next level. It is human caring.

There are books on the subject. There is new research in the field. There are dedicated professional trying to understand this part of human experience. In our roll as discussion-ers and thinkers -- this is not the place to ignore information. Here is not a place to be ignorant.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Quote from: The Voice of Reason on May 10, 2008, 07:20:14 PM
If we were in Iraq with roadside bombs ready to go off without warning or snipers lurking in the shadows waiting to take a shot, CISM would have a more solid foundation in this organization.

To me it just looks like someone with an outside specialty wanted to make a name for themselves in the organization.

I did acknowledge that there may be cases where it is called for, but having it all the time everywhere is like putting on surgical gloves every time you want to shake hands.

I also noticed a strange but common phenomenon in this message thread;

I do not like the way this organization is being turned into a kids club, I oppose the aspects of it that make a CPPT necessary (not the cadet program, but the way they keep tailoring the program to children -- No "Children" in this organization, only Seniors and Cadets).  Now because I voice my opinion some of you are as much as making accusations that could get you removed from the program and open you up to SEVERE civil liability.

This is especially bizarre since I am the one suggesting the organization take steps to maintain its integrity, avoid the appearance of impropriety and maintain high standards so people have something to "shoot" for when they get older and YOU (the people making the accusations) are in favor of cozying up to the "K-5" crowd.

Is this what psychiatrists call "Reaction formation"?

By the way, I was at ground zero NYC while the dust was still settling.

Many (but not all) of the people suffering from "burnout" have just found a way to retire early.

If they couldn't handle the job, they should've found a desk somewhere.

The kind of people who "burn out" are usually the "look at me" crowd anyway.  It's just another way for them to illustrate how great their contribution has been -- "I gave everything I had and look how much they took!" and so forth.

I'm guessing there are lots of Ltc's and Headquarters types in here...

Don't feed the troll...(http://ciateq.net.mx/~elwen/bergen/troll.jpg)

I'm calling this one. CISM etc is OT.