C/SrA Flight Sergeant?

[vesryn]

Can a moderator close this discussion? Thanks! I got my answer.

[SarDragon]

Nah, we don't routinely close threads. It will sit here, idle, until someone resurrects it. It could be a day, a week, a year, or even longer. We have threads that have been revived after a five year lapse in posts. No big thang.

[arajca]

Nah, we don't routinely close threads. It will sit here, idle, until someone resurrects it. It could be a day, a week, a year, or even longer. We have threads that have been revived after a five year lapse in posts. No big thang.

Or it will sit here, being added to as members drag the discussion into all sorts of interesting side notes until it devolves into a uniform thread.

[Eclipse]

Nah, we don't routinely close threads. It will sit here, idle, until someone resurrects it. It could be a day, a week, a year, or even longer. We have threads that have been revived after a five year lapse in posts. No big thang.

Or it will sit here, being added to as members drag the discussion into all sorts of interesting side notes until it devolves into a uniform thread.

May I mambo dogface to the banana patch?

[Storm Chaser]

That being said, sometimes you don't have much of a choice (other than leaving the position vacant; something that's not always appropriate or possible). When I was a cadet, we had a very large squadron that was hurting for officers and senior NCOs. We had senior NCOs in officer positions and airmen in NCO positions.

That's >always< an option, and usually appropriate.

In theory, I agree with you. But it's always (or should be) determined by the circumstances. Sometimes you >need< to fill a position because  someone has to do the job. Titles can vary and that's acceptable (i.e. Flight Sergeant instead of Flight Commander if the cadet in charge is an NCO and not an officer). Positions can also be left vacant (we currently don't have a First Sergeant in our squadron). But when you need a job to be done, you appoint someone competent to do it, even if they don't have the ideal grade. It happens on the senior side all the time, as it does in the cadet side.

Personally, I would try to wait until the cadet reach the appropriate grade, but sometimes exemptions are in order.

[Eclipse]

It happens on the senior side all the time, as it does in the cadet side.

Really a different discussion.

On the cadet side, the need to do a job should never trump the cadet's learning experience, nor prematurely  push them into something they have not been
trained for.  There are no jobs in the cadet structure that a senior can't do better on a temporary basis until the cadets are ready.

[Storm Chaser]

On the cadet side, the need to do a job should never trump the cadet's learning experience, nor prematurely  push them into something they have not been trained for.

Again, I don't disagree. But grade alone cannot determine a cadet experience, training, maturity or ability to do a job.

There are no jobs in the cadet structure that a senior can't do better on a temporary basis until the cadets are ready.

That's true in some cases, but not all (how many senior members know how to march... I do, but not many). But again, it all depends on the circumstances, as I said before. You're making an assumption that you have enough senior members to perform these tasks; that's not always the case. I have been in enough squadrons to have experienced that.

[Eclipse]

That's true in some cases, but not all (how many senior members know how to march... I do, but not many). But again, it all depends on the circumstances, as I said before. You're making an assumption that you have enough senior members to perform these tasks; that's not always the case. I have been in enough squadrons to have experienced that.

OK - but that's more indicative of the problem, and you should not penalize the cadets because the seniors aren't up to snuff.

You should not have seniors in leadership positions who cannot at least adequately lead and execute the entirety of the program in absence of
ready cadets.

And yes, I realize that the "warm body" mentality of a lot of a commanders leads to situations where the commander and staff don't even know what the cadets
are doing, or are supposed to be doing.  That doesn't make it right, and again, we're penalizing a cadet(s) by expecting them to step up unprepared, or do a senior's job.
And this being allowed to continue is a command failing all the way up the chain.

So if for no other reason then to be a voice in the crowd, we need to keep hammering how wrong it is to have NCOs in officer roles, and be turning Mosquitoes into cadet commanders.

[Майор Хаткевич]

+100000000000 based on harsh experience.

[Tim Day]

On the cadet side, the need to do a job should never trump the cadet's learning experience, nor prematurely  push them into something they have not been trained for.

Again, I don't disagree. But grade alone cannot determine a cadet experience, training, maturity or ability to do a job.

There are no jobs in the cadet structure that a senior can't do better on a temporary basis until the cadets are ready.

That's true in some cases, but not all (how many senior members know how to march... I do, but not many). But again, it all depends on the circumstances, as I said before. You're making an assumption that you have enough senior members to perform these tasks; that's not always the case. I have been in enough squadrons to have experienced that.

I don't think anyone is making that assumption. Instead we are stating that none of those positions actually need to be filled, ever, except as part of the cadets' training program. The cadet organizational structure is there to provide tailored challenges commensurate with cadet grade.

If I don't have enough senior members to handle 8 cadets than I probably don't have enough senior members to have a cadet program.

[jimmydeanno]

That's true in some cases, but not all (how many senior members know how to march... I do, but not many). But again, it all depends on the circumstances, as I said before. You're making an assumption that you have enough senior members to perform these tasks; that's not always the case. I have been in enough squadrons to have experienced that.

If you are in a unit that is using a senior member to march the cadets around or teach drill, then the likelihood of having a cadet who can drill or instruct drill better is slim to none.  If you have some sort of AFJROTC cadet or something that knows how to drill already, drill can be instructed to an element by an element leader.  Either way, the senior member is going to do just as well if not better than the 5 C/AB that have never drilled before either.  So, no point in making them cadet commanders. 

I have about a decade of cadet programs management on the senior side now, and not once have I found that appointing cadets prematurely was a good thing.  I've saved a number of units from closing and done a lot of drill instruction while cadets moved up the ranks.  The pre-existing conditions were C/NCOs as cadet commanders, C/A1C as a deputy commander, etc.  None of them did well, cadets left.  When I took over, the cadet program got a reset, cadets were put in appropriate positions and told if the wanted to be a "X" then get themselves to a point where they could be one.  Sure enough, they get truckin.  I didn't have C/CMSgts hanging out at the Armstrong, they got their Mitchells and Earharts so that they could be Cadet Commanders and run high-level wing cadet activities.

Time and time again, its the same story, and the squadrons that fail all think that they can make C/A1C Timmy a cadet commander and everything will be fine.

1) Cadets don't progress when they can do everything as a C/SSgt.
2) There is nothing to aspire to when you've been a Cadet Commander by the time you hit C/Tsgt.
3) The leadership lessons are not appropriate.

Really that is the argument in a nutshell.  We aren't talking about the obscure circumstance where the 20 year old C/A1C did an awesome job as a cadet commander because he already had his Masters' Degree in non-profit organizational management, we are talking about the other 99.9% of the time.

It may work short term, but in the long run, the squadron fails.  I've seen it over and over and over again.

[lordmonar]

How many cadets in the "flight"?

Got an 8 person flight....sure why not have a C/Sra Flight Sergeant.   It is not like he is really going to be doing be doing the work of a flight sergeant.

Then why not have an element leader for 8 weeks.  If they aren't going to be doing the job, they don't need to be one.  Job titles imply things.  Holding positions goes on resumes.  If you aren't one, but someone gives you the title, it only sets you up for failure later on.

Wrong Dog....wrong Tree.