NCO's in CAP - the challenges

[KRCopes]

Sorry to post a new topic about the same thing, but the other NCO thread was talking about charters and other unrelated stuff.

I have been thinking about the role and potential of the CAP NCO program, but the same fear continues to recur to me.  The wisdom behind having the NCO program seems to revolve around increasing the level of professionalism and true military experience.  To achieve this, the plan is to only allow former or current Real Military NCOs to hold these positions.

In theory, this makes sense to me.  But then I look down the road when we have several NCOs with their Real Military backgrounds and professionalism.  How are they gonna feel about someone without such training being "superior in grade" because they passed Level I and have been in the program for six months? I fear that some of the following scenarios will occur:

1.) There will be several instances of power struggles between "officers" and the NCO Corp.  The professionally prepared NCOs will resent the "officers" and out grade structure will mean even less than it does now.

2.)  There will be too few NCOs in the program to make it truly effective.

3.)  NCOs will become quickly frustrated since there is currently no system of advancement other than to attain a position at a higher level.

I know that these are not certain outcomes, but I feel that if other changes should occur as well to prevent these types of situations.  The biggest one that comes to mind is the restructuring of the officer corp to make the grade mean something once again.  It seems to me that a slotting program similar to that of the real military would go a long way.  It sounds like the NCO program is going to be somewhat based on slotting, so what's good for the goose . . .

I'd love to hear other folks' thoughts on this.

[DrJbdm]

you have a point, and I'm not sure what the fix is other then to radically change our Officer standards to 50% or even 75% of AF standards... I think that would be a good thing.

[MIKE]

I split off most of that discussion and merged these ones.

[Chief Chiafos]

Received this email today...

"I heard of the conversation related to your introduction here elsewhere, and I just now got to reading it... so I apologize for the delay.

I am glad to see you taking an effort to restore some of the simple military tradition and practice that has such an overarching contribution to our overall organization image.  I have been a CAP member for 10 years, and an Air Force member for 3.  I realized once joining the Air Force how much the CAP, in order to continue being a partner in the Total Force, needs to improve both its internal and external image as a professional organization.  As a result of this realization, I felt I could contribute more to the organization if I hung up my hat as a Civil Air Patrol Captain and supported the Air Force's advice, assistance and oversight mission as an enlisted role model for the cadet program as well as anyone else who would listen or watch... I was very surprised to see what I believe has been a positive response to this decision.

Although having been in the program for the length of time I have makes me realize that you will undoubtedly face a tremendous number of obstacles in this endeavor, I would be glad to support and offer assistance to whatever extent I am able.  I wish you good luck with this undertaking."

That's it.  That's all there is.  No agenda, no conspiracy, no reorganizing, no new regulations, no power struggles with officers, no edicts from headquarters, no new uniforms, no separate lines of authority, no politics, no quibbling, no hair splitting, no nothing...  Just a sincere attempt to make us a little better than we are, and perhaps show the Air Force we can look and act like we were supposed to all along.

[DNall]

Sounds like Nick from out my way, good guy.

Chief I need for you to communicate to us what you're looking to do big picture. I understand the tactical single NCO role, we can educate about that & support those people in those roles, encourage more to join them. Got it, no problems. I also understand the ultimate objectives:

"I realized once joining the Air Force how much the CAP, in order to continue being a partner in the Total Force, needs to improve both its internal and external image as a professional organization. "
-snip-
Just a sincere attempt to make us a little better than we are, and perhaps show the Air Force we can look and act like we were supposed to all along.

What I need to see in order to better support you is what goes in between those two things. The vision for a national NCO program, how's it work, what's the rough details, how does it create a bigger impact than the tactical alone, etc. I'm not trying to oppose you chief, not even to play devil's advocate. I want to see the picture you're trying to paint for us so I can help make it happen in reality.

Now, with that said, I'd ask you to respect Chief that we on the officer side have BIG BIG problems in our selection, training, development, professionalism line of issues. We need to spend a lot of time & effort transforming CAP from that angle as well. Ultimately I believe that effort & yours meet in the middle at a point where we can be a total force contributor & take on some serious missions important to the AF getting their job done, and act as a force multiplier on top of that.

[Chief Chiafos]

My view of CAP is through the prism of the Iowa Wing, which may, or may not reflect accurately on all of CAP.  As I traveled around the wing I was shocked by the lack of formations, roll calls, uniform inspections, proper honors to the colors, cadets improperly training cadets, cadet officers telling seniors what to do  - and sometimes, addressing them by first names.  I think these behaviors may be present, to some degree, throughout CAP.

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.  Is this true in all units, no.  But when a unit loses its instructor-enforcer, military discipline begins to erode and its soon back to the same old CAP.
 
I saw former NCOs as the means to bring back the military customs that instill pride and discipline.  Can any former NCO do this, maybe not.  Can any officer with the knowledge do this, probably.  But there is no uniformity, no real caretaker of the standards. 

This conversation has been valuable to me, it is now self-evident that, at this point in time, developing a CAP wide NCO corps isn't practical.  But I still believe former NCOs are the ideal avenue to re-blue CAP as a military organization:  someone who focuses on uniforms, customs, courtesies, formations, and ceremonies.  If you disagree, please explain how you will accomplish this.

If this concept takes root, and spreads across the organization, perhaps then a more formal system of communications and management of NCOs will be required. 

[RiverAux]

I don't know about a "corps", but something in the regulation giving some specific duties and purposes along the lines of what you describe might be helpful to the NCOs we have now.  "Empower" them to start speaking up about such specific issues.  Right now they have no more clout on these issues than any other member. 

[lordmonar]

I don't know about a "corps", but something in the regulation giving some specific duties and purposes along the lines of what you describe might be helpful to the NCOs we have now.  "Empower" them to start speaking up about such specific issues.  Right now they have no more clout on these issues than any other member. 

Exactly.  A revision of CAPR 20-1 that identifies a position (call it First Sergeant or Senior Enlisted Adviser) who specific job is to train SM's in drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies and the other "military things"

Add a requirement to each level of SM professional development that requires them to take and pass a leadership test that includes drill would enforce the need to listen to these people.

That is all that I was ever asking for.

[ZigZag911]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

[Major Carrales]

My take on NCO's in CAP I placed at this thread...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1353.msg18688#msg18688

In a nutshell, an NCO would be an instrumentality of the SQUADRON LEVEL, maybe a Group/WING NCO with time to administer it.  They would ideally be advisory in their own chain like chaplains with no upward lateral movement (like Squadron Command or higher officer outside of the CAP NCO Program).  We don't need them functioning as the "CAP Gestapo" reporting things in a BIG BROTHER/Orwellian like fashion. 

Is that last element I mention here is the intent of these NCOs...I will say I am against it.  If the intent of these NCOs is provide advice and administer professional image...I will support it.

[Dragoon]

I firmly believe that putting more "military" into the cadet program is a good thing.  And a great place to add the expertise of former military leaders, both NCO and Officer.  This assumes that they know their stuff.  The E-7 dental technician may be an NCO, but depending on his service and training it may have been a looooooong time since he stood in a formation

On the senior side of CAP....I'm not so sure.  I think it's a fine idea, but someone would have to do something about golf shirts, blazers, and optional rank system, etc etc.  We've built a senior program that is a lot more "loosey goosey" than that cadet side, and probably for good reason.  The kids are here to learn about the military, and spend most of their CAP time getting better at it.  The adults are here to apply their civilian skills (like being a pilot, or an accountant) to CAP work.  If you only get the senior for 2 hours a week, it's hard to justify too much D&C when their are test to grade, files to manage and checkbooks to balance.

Perhaps as you move about, you can work on a solution to that quandrary. In the meantime, a "stan/eval team that squares away the military side of thd cadet program" sounds like a do-able thing.

[Dragoon]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

I'm always against new specialties, because we've got too many already.  In an undermanned unit, you're likely not to have people actually trained for all the ones out there now!

Having said that, I think you're on to something.  More military stuff in the CP track. Perhaps a D&C requirement at the senior level.

I don't think there's really a place for golf shirted den mother types as Cadet Program leaders.  As chaperones and test proctors, sure.  But the CP leaders at the DCC level and above need to be up on the military side of things.

[arajca]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

The position exists, but it has never been a specialty track, let alone had any training for it. It is a part of what the CP members need to learn.

[ZigZag911]

Because CAP doesn't have a speciality track, or some other kind of program, to combine all things military into a single source, military skills are neglected.   

There is a position for a Leadership Officer in cadet & composite squadrons.

Specialty track training for this area has always been merged into Cadet Programs Specialty.

Perhaps the time has come to make it a stand alone specialty?

Tags - MIKE

The position exists, but it has never been a specialty track, let alone had any training for it. It is a part of what the CP members need to learn.

True, but maybe we need some folks focused on this aspect alone , rather than the entire cadet program (much the way there is an Aerospace Education track).

[swilliams]

After reading this entire thread - I have to say I'm all for the basics idea of what the Chief is talking about.
I've been a member for almost 20 years now, and to tell the truth - I'm ready for a change.

I've decided to hang up my Major epaulets & sew on the MSgt stripes. By following the example of our Command Chief, I hope that I'll be able to help improve the organization.

[SAR-EMT1]

Add a requirement to each level of SM professional development that requires them to take and pass a leadership test that includes drill would enforce the need to listen to these people.

That is all that I was ever asking for.

APPLAUDS!!! :clap: BELLS, WHISTLES, NAKED BELLY DANCERS ... NAKED BELLY DANCERS

Do that and put in place an actually augmentation program where we can be used on base and I will be happy for the rest of my life.

Tags -  MIKE

[SAR-EMT1]

Um..ok, apologies, I guess I havent figured out the tags quite yet... back to "the playpen" 

[MIKE]

Um..ok, apologies, I guess I havent figured out the tags quite yet... back to "the playpen" 

N00b.