CAP defintion of cross country flight?

[bflynn]

A technicalish sort of question -

FAR 61.1 3) has two defintions of cross country flight.  Which one applies to the requirements for CAP qualifications?

61.1 Applicability and definitions.

3) Cross-country time means—

    (i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
        (A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
        (B) Conducted in an aircraft;
        (C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
        (D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to
              navigate to the landing point.

    (ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private
         pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or 
         for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a
         flight—

            (A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
            (B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the
                  original point of departure; and
             (C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to 
                   navigate to the landing point.
...

If I take off from my home airport, cross over the 3M plant, turn left at Hwy 64 and follow that to the next airport that is 15 miles away where I land - then I have fulfilled  (i) A, B, C and D.  The FAA recognizes this as cross country time as discussed by the Chief Counsel letter to Mr Glenn dated 1 Dec 2009.

Is that considered cross country time for the purposes of CAP aeronautical qualifications, specifically Transport Mission Pilot?

I don't see this in 60-1 or 60-3, but I'll admit that I could have missed it.

[lordmonar]

One could assume that if CAP has not provided a different definition then the industry standard (FAA's in this case) prevails.

YMMV.

[bflynn]

Yeah, that's actually the reason I'm asking - the industry doesn't really care except for the logging of specific experience for certificates.

I realized I've never logged all this as cross country, I've only logged trips > 50 miles because that is what was important as a student...so I haven't been following this.  As a result, I only have about 50 miles XC in my logbook, even though I have much more in actual flight time.

I'll ask the StanEval officer tomorrow night...that's probably the one opinion that matters the most.

[Thrashed]

The CAP does not define cross country, the FAA does. The stan/eval officer doesn't either. It's your logbook, the stan/eval officer has no say in it. Follow the FAR's.

-a stan/eval officer

[JeffDG]

Yeah, that's actually the reason I'm asking - the industry doesn't really care except for the logging of specific experience for certificates.

I realized I've never logged all this as cross country, I've only logged trips > 50 miles because that is what was important as a student...so I haven't been following this.  As a result, I only have about 50 miles XC in my logbook, even though I have much more in actual flight time.

I'll ask the StanEval officer tomorrow night...that's probably the one opinion that matters the most.

There is only one definition of "Cross Country".  That is a flight that lands at an airport other than where it departed, whether that other airport is 1nm or 1000nm away, it's still cross-country.

The requirements for PP, IR, etc. have a restriction on which cross country time counts for those certificates and ratings.  It does not change the meaning of Cross Country, simply tells you which cross country you may use for that particular purpose.

So, in the CAP context, they've simply said that you need 50 hours of cross country for TMP for example.  There is no additional restriction in there, and as such, you can use anything that meets the base FAR definition of XC.  A 1nm hop or a 1,000nm long XC both count.  Additionally, the TMP does not require your XC to be as PIC, so your student dual XCs count for that (Instrument for example requires your XC to be PIC time, so only your solo XCs count for that before you get your PP)

The one place, FAA wise, where the <50nm stuff counts is when you're looking at Pt. 135 mins.  The 1nm hops count for that. 

Myself, I log any XC as XC.  My e-logbook has a flag I can set for >50nm and just pull those records if I'm looking at certificate requirements.

[Critical AOA]

What is undeniable is that the FAA and CAP both suffer from poorly written regulations that are open to way too much interpretation.

The idea that making 100 10 mile hops to the same neighboring airport is the same as a single 1000 mile cross country to a strange airport over new terrain with fuel stops at other strange airports is ridiculous.  The only thing you accomplish is getting more takeoffs and landings which can just as easily be gained in the pattern.  You do not learn or reinforce any flight planning / navigation skills.  You do not have to worry about fuel management.  You do not need to worry about weather to any significant degree.  You do not have to worry about being handed off from controller to controller and possibly missing calls if IFR or VFR Flight Following.  There is so much less to worry about on your Saturday morning little hop.

There is a reason that to qualify for certain ratings that the FAA goes to a higher standard.  Although I would agree that using the lower FAA regulatory standard for cross country flying is within the CAP regulation as written, I wonder if it meets the intent of the regulation.  Why mandate 50 hours cross country to be a TMP?  Probably to ensure that you have been successful doing the tasks that I mentioned above.  I believe CAP wants to know that its pilots can safely reposition an aircraft from one end of the state to another or even across country if required.

50 hours to a very close by airport again and again proves very little.   

[lordmonar]

Is this really an issue?

I understand the concern about the intent of the FAR and CAPR........but do we really have a problem with people gameing the system?  Do we hae a problem with TMPs not knowing how to do cross country and using their available navigation skills?

[bflynn]

There is only one definition of "Cross Country".  That is a flight that lands at an airport other than where it departed, whether that other airport is 1nm or 1000nm away, it's still cross-country.

That's not the definition, but I understand what you're saying. 

The only issue is a paperwork one and what paperwork is acceptable (to our stan/eval officer?).  I'll figure it out.  I'm not scratching and re-writing that column of my logbook, but I'll figure something out...

[Cliff_Chambliss]

When is 1000 hours NOT 1000 hours?  When is 500 hours XC NOT 500 hours XC?

Peter pilot has been showing up at the airport every Sunday for the past 20 years.  Every week weather permitting he flies to another field 52 miles away, drinks a cup of coffee, flies to another airport to visit a friend or two and the comes home.  He averages 1.4 hours per week.
Every year ole Pete does his CAP Form 5 at homedrome airport.  He is luckey that his squadron has several form 5 check pilots so he never has to leave the area and since everyone knows everyone else, nothing ever changes.
Pete is an active Mission Pilot and always participates in every SAREX held within 50 miles of Homedrome.

Now does old Pete have 1,500 PIC hours or does he have 1.5 hours 1,000 times?
Does he have 15 Form five Chekrides or 3 checkrides repeated 5 times each?

No matter the ratings held or the number of hours, if the pilot/aviator is not out learning new methods and techniques, planning and performing meaningful flights, learning and growing, then all they are doing is nothing more than marching in place.

[lordmonar]

Okay.....Joe Airline Pilot has 10,000 hours....5 times a week he hops across the Pacific in a 747 logging 12+ hours each way.  Sitting there reading his magazine, guarding the auto pilot.

While hours flown is a handy tool to guage a pilot's experince.....it is not the end all beat all of standards.


Again....I ask........is there a problem?

[starshippe]

   sometimes the rules seem to work against u, sometimes they *really* seem to work against u.....
   take the case of the rutan voyager flight in 1986. dick and jeana took off for a nine day, around the world, unrefueled, 25,000+ mile flight. they broke a record that had been held for over 20 years by a b52.
   but... they landed at the same airport they departed from, so the time couldn't be logged as cross country.

bill

[lordmonar]

   sometimes the rules seem to work against u, sometimes they *really* seem to work against u.....
   take the case of the rutan voyager flight in 1986. dick and jeana took off for a nine day, around the world, unrefueled, 25,000+ mile flight. they broke a record that had been held for over 20 years by a b52.
   but... they landed at the same airport they departed from, so the time couldn't be logged as cross country.

bill

Yep.
That is why they have leaders......to interpet the rules and see how actual situations fit into them.