MOLLE GEAR COLOR - which side is true?

[JayT]

good for my comms duty but I'm not seeing field applications. (btw way elicpse I like to have extra money for pizza  )

They're comfortable, practical, and high viz........

[maverik]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

[Eclipse]

good for my comms duty but I'm not seeing field applications. (btw way eclipse I like to have extra money for pizza  )

I'd be very curious to know what you are doing 1 state right "in the field" that isn't happening
where I am, because that vest, combined with a hydropack underneath or a couple of bottles of water in your BDU pockets can hack any duty we're getting in GLR.

The reality is that we don't do the kind of "go out for three days and find something" missions in GLR, or even very much in CAP, that require mil-spec ballistic material equipment.

I'm as much of a geardo as the guy in the pic I posted, but at least I'm honest that I use CAP as an excuse to buy stuff I have no need for.

Katrina was about as close to Armageddon as I ever want to get, and we all went down there expecting to have to dig fox holes and fight civilians for rations - then we pitched our tents, did a lot of door knocking, and shelter work, and ate with the Army (very well I might add).

By week's end most of us moved to leaving our gear in the truck to help with the 100° heat - we had it if we needed it, but the duty didn't call for it to be on us - the one guy w/ the Sarmed could leave it on and have all his toys handy because it was actually comfortable and light to wear.

In KY, other than cold weather gear, all the Army carried were weapons and water, because their base had hots and cots.  No one from them or us was going to be left to fend alone.

So, cool is cool, no problem, but after that, what do you think you're preparing for?

[Eclipse]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

Look close - there's 5 pockets on the front, some with dividers.  Same amount and storage space as the typical Blackhawk tac vest.



There's also a large double zippered pocket on the back large enough for an MRE, or I usually use it for a clipboard and other docs.

[maverik]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

[JayT]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

You have six pockets on the vest, four pockets on your shirt, and six pockets on your pants.

[IceNine]

hey that's pretty cool. And what I mean by being in the field is is really SAREX's I mean at SAREXs we sleep in the "field in our tents, (but most missions we either crash in the van or the bivvy the redcross set up )  what I meant by field applications is how do you carry flagging tape etc. in your gear? (althought that vest is cool i'll admit.)

Don't carry flagging tape, carry something that is really 2 things.  Like IO duct tape.  and without starting a completely different discussion all together.

Experience will show you what you really need to CARRY vs Have Available.  You can put everything you need to Carry on your body in that vest, or in a back pack style hydrator, or whatever else you choose to use.

At the end of the day the most reasonable solution is a compromise of relevance to the mission at hand, and what you want in your vest.

If you want the CIRAS then buy it, I will gladly tell you "I told you so" and then suggest something different.

Take our experiences for the value you believe they present.  For this guy's 400 dollars though I would spend 45 on a nice rack, 100 on various pockets, And then buy upgraded items to go in the vest.  MIOX, zippo hand warmers, etc.

Remember, a huge house with no furniture is much less comfortable than a tiny house with a REALLY nice recliner.  YMMV

[es_g0d]

I think the red vest is a great construction.  See end.

The bottom line here is that if your discussing a color for gear and those colors are "black, green, or tan" or some variant thereof (ie ACU), YOU ARE WRONG.

If you want to be serious about SAR operations, take a look at what the rest of the country uses as a standard.  The NASAR Fundamentals of Search and Rescue book has an excellent description of what's good and bad in SAR gear.

Quote from page 90: "The preference for SAR personnel is always to be more visible, and so camouflage and darker colors should be at best avoided, or at least used only when brighter colors are not available."

We've traditionally used military gear in CAP, ostensibly because we could get it from DRMO or other military channels.  If you're spending YOUR OWN money on gear, I'll emphasize that we're the CIVIL air patrol, and your gear should be the best -- and most visible -- available.  There's a good chance that if you're limiting yourself to military gear you're excluding what's best.  You might also be not getting the best gear for your dollar.

I posted a similar thought elsewhere, but I think its worthy of saying again.  We are a large enough organization where we could easily have gear made to our specifications -- color, style, etc.  Why don't we???

[NIN]

honestly guys I asked a simple question and I don't need to get jumped with comments like "you're just trying to look cool." don't assume that because we all know what assuming does.  That being said I like PCs because of their feel and their usefullness now you guys say I don't need "body armor" PCs are not body armor they are plate carriers body armor are plates to go in the vests and you don't need plates for our work.  Also I like to stay current with gear because the militar's mission is turning more and more to an urban enviorment, now this includes getting in and out of vehicles which is in our work.  And why is saying I want a late carrier any different then saying I want  a  Fighting Load Carrier? And yes I have tried a RACK before and found that I donb't like how they are set up.Thank you all who gave the information I requested.

*Yawn.* I think I just heard the sound of yon C/MSgt's earflaps slamming shut. Too bad, too.

Troop, let me tell you: I have more time scarfing down MREs while wearing body armor and kevlar than you have in CAP.  I guess you're not interested in taking clear, concise hints from the folks out here who have "Been there, done that, spent the money, got the crap they don't use in the garage, and have gone back to the KISS method."  

Thats fine.  Sometimes you just have to go and make your own mistakes after being told 50-60 times by others "hey, you're about to make a mistake" before you smack yourself in the head and say "Oh, I shouldn't have done that.."  Like I said, I have a tendency to do the exact same thing. Just sayin...

Go get your CIRAS or your plate carrier (BTW, in case you weren't paying attention:  the word "plate" in the phrase "plate carrier" represents "ARMOR plate," not a "dinner plate.")  From your above comment, Sergeant, I'm not entirely sure you have a clue what a PC really is or what its used for, but it sure looks neato, so everybody who is telling you "yeah, don't bother, not appropriate for what you intend to use it for" is probably just some buffoon who spends all his time behind a desk at a mission base, eatin' up all the donuts and yakkin' on that there ray-diddi-o to the ground teams, right?  

You've never gotten into and out of a vehicle wearing John Wayne gear and carrying a rifle.  It stinks.  And now you're talking about wearing a gear carrier assembly that will put gear on your back?  Uh uh.  Tell ya what: Go put your ALICE pack on (empty) and go out and try to drive your car without taking it off.   You'll see what I mean.

When you wanna get rid of that CIRAS replica 'cuz its too hot, I'll give you $50 for it.  I need something else to put in my storage unit that I won't actually use

[Hawk200]

I think the red vest is a great construction.  See end.

The bottom line here is that if your discussing a color for gear and those colors are "black, green, or tan" or some variant thereof (ie ACU), YOU ARE WRONG.

Nothing wrong about it. I was discussing colors available for the gear I mentioned. Did you read the whole thing?

Second, there isn't a single National publication that states what color gear is to be. Until there is, there is no wrong in color choice. Might be many that are completely unsuitable, but not wrong.

If you want to be serious about SAR operations, take a look at what the rest of the country uses as a standard.  The NASAR Fundamentals of Search and Rescue book has an excellent description of what's good and bad in SAR gear.

Quote from page 90: "The preference for SAR personnel is always to be more visible, and so camouflage and darker colors should be at best avoided, or at least used only when brighter colors are not available."

The preference for NASAR personnel is not the preference of National Headquarters, CAP. Until CAP adopts the NASAR standards, they're irrelevant. Good guidelines, but nothing that you can hold a CAP member to. CAP requires an orange vest be worn in the field. If you're not following that, you're wrong.

We've traditionally used military gear in CAP, ostensibly because we could get it from DRMO or other military channels.  If you're spending YOUR OWN money on gear, I'll emphasize that we're the CIVIL air patrol, and your gear should be the best -- and most visible -- available.  There's a good chance that if you're limiting yourself to military gear you're excluding what's best.  You might also be not getting the best gear for your dollar.

I go with what I have, and for me that's military gear. For a lot of CAP folks that's common. And if I'm spending my own money on gear, I'll go with what I'm used to. Visibility doesn't matter, that orange vest is still required. And military gear tends to be pretty sturdy, that's why some folks still carry old ALICE gear. It works and it lasts.

We are a large enough organization where we could easily have gear made to our specifications -- color, style, etc.  Why don't we???

Are we really? Seems like there are far more SAR personnel out there than there are CAP members. Don't really know if making our own designs is useful. If there were orange versions out there of the equipment I'm familiar with, I'd probably use it. Someone mentioned on another thread MOLLE gear in orange. If CAP permitted it's use in lieu of an orange vest, I'd probably spend the money. Not gonna jump on it just because it's orange.

[TEAM SURGE]

yes but how in the heck do you hold gear on it?

Look close - there's 5 pockets on the front, some with dividers.  Same amount and storage space as the typical Blackhawk tac vest.



There's also a large double zippered pocket on the back large enough for an MRE, or I usually use it for a clipboard and other docs.

I spent a bit of money on a vest just like this except it had a bit of gren on it, they told me I could not use it in the field. Because green is for flight waivers. I was pretty frustrated.

[Eclipse]

I spent a bit of money on a vest just like this except it had a bit of gren on it, they told me I could not use it in the field. Because green is for flight waivers. I was pretty frustrated.

That's ridiculous, especially with a cadet, but with that said, in the places where a color is specified. the color is always orange.

[RedFox24]

Held off as long as I could on this one.....

CAP's mission is Search and Rescue, not Search and Destroy. 

The object is to see and be seen.

The last two missions I have been on, I saw two different senior members, from two different wings, with TAC vest, drop down gear bags from their belt to their thighs, and knee pads.............   They had more junk that they would ever use......let alone need.  And they looked stupid.  Was never sure if they were going to save the subject of the search or storm them and shoot them.  These same people were dead tired after their two hour walk in the woods.  Plus they had feet/ankle issues at the end of the day from carrying all that weight. 

I don't like a vest because I sweat a lot, esp in the summer.  But what Bob showed would be much preferred, IMO, to the MOLLE picture on this same thread.  I use a version of the Rhodesian chest pouch for radio, gps, maps etc that wont fit into a BDU pocket and then a blaze orange day pack to carry any "big stuff".  It works for me.  I can see and be seen.  BTW I use this theme at work also so it doubles as my CAP gear. 

I have not been in the military, and am not an expert on such when it comes to "rucksack march", but take it from a guy who spends half his job time walking in the fields and woods, carry only what you need, make sure it is comfortable, make sure you can see and be seen and leave the rest in the truck.

[Hawk200]

CAP's mission is Search and Rescue, not Search and Destroy. 

Actually, no, it's not. It's search. Period. We don't have the insurance coverage for rescue.

I have not been in the military, and am not an expert on such when it comes to "rucksack march", but take it from a guy who spends half his job time walking in the fields and woods, carry only what you need, make sure it is comfortable, make sure you can see and be seen and leave the rest in the truck.

Carry what you need is definitely smart. Even soldiers know this. Most soldiers will lighten their load whenever they get the chance.

[RedFox24]

My point was that "we" dont give the appearance of SAR but that of SAD by what type and how we wear our field equipment

Actually, not it's not. It's search. Period. We don't have the insurance coverage for rescue.

Point well taken.........

[heliodoc]

I have to agree with NIN

I served in an AVIM Aviation Company repairing UH-1's and UH 60's in the field and we had to wear the full battle rattle while driving or riding our HUMVEE's and in the day, deuce and a half....

Getting out those vehicles with all the old style John Wayne gear while grabbing for one's M16, duffles , toolboxes, etc was a PITA.  So I too suggest to all the folks in Combat Air Patrol to don up with all the old stuff and all the new MOLLE gear a do a drill to get out of that vehicle

Let's look at it realistically, we are not John Wayne at the crash site nor the UDF site....  so practice up and see how many times one gets hung up with all the gear on.  Utilize that space in those E350 vans that we had to take out the rear seat......  Why do you suppose all that room is for??? 

Let's just say that CAP'er van, God forbid, rolls over and everyone that can get out has all that CAP Air Assault gear on,  whadddyaa suppose is going to be the hindering focus on getting out

Maybe that's a project for the 1AF and all the Safety types at mission base to look into...... how many CAPer SM and cadets get into the vehicle with their Assault gear........ that might be a liitle thing those folks may want to pry into.....How many of you want that, eh??

Most of us in the RM have a little insight to this.  We had to wear our and follow orders due to the pay grade and assignment we had.  CAP and its members ought to use the common sense and space afforded to them in an E350 van.

Like es_god also says........ follow his sense and red fox is right SEARCH, folks  not the rescue or destroy we are so fondly looked upon in some of the GA community

Just like other thread on ruck marching........ it's memorable and long lasting especially if you go over 50 lbs consisitently and then there are those CAPers who think they geared up and rucked only to find out they are winded after 4 blocks 'cuz they are spent 2 minutes trying to get out of a vehicle trying to be Gunny Highway......

Gear up geardoooos and start flaming some MORE relevant RM experience to pass on.....

[es_g0d]

I am glad for the lively discussion.  Even if we disagree, it shows that we care.  (And yes, I am reading the whole thing!)

I wish to address a couple of issues, then I'm going to lob a grenade to see who jumps on it.

First, with my comment as to what is WRONG.  I don't mean prohibited, but I do mean incorrect.  Comba gear isn't prohibited, but that doesn't mean its RIGHT, either!  Furthermore, I'd fully agree that a MOLLE vest in blaze orange complies with the letter and intent of the "orange vest" requirement.  That said, low-visibility colored COMBAT gear does not enhance a credible image and reputation.

Refuting industry standards (ie NASAR) with a comment of, "CAP National HQ hasn't adopted them" means you aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and aren't leading us as an emergency response organization in the right direction.  CAP has clamped its hands over its ears for far to long when it comes to the SAR mission.  If we continue to do so, we're going to continue to be marginalized.  The time is now to put our input into ESF 9.  The NASAR standard is different, and often higher, than that for CAP ground teams.  As such, its an excellent form of continuation training.  Please don't poo-poo it only because its unfamiliar.

Now I'll toss the grenade.  If we're in the business of "Search" only, then why do we have ground teams at all?  Particularly true of aeronautical SAR -- the business for which we have the largest 'jurisdiction,' -- ground teams are not terribly efficient search resources.  This is ESPECIALLY true if we discount the teachings of "other than CAP" GSAR experts (which we tend to do).  If you're not prepared for the rescue, then you're not necessary.  I ask this because I firmly believe in the whole concept of SAR.

Rescue doesn't mean evacuation or extrication (necessarily), nor does it mean technical rescue.  It DOES mean that you have the responsibility for coordinating such efforts if they are necessary.

Who will jump?

[winterg]

Well said.

Way back when I was a kaydet (read 80's) we used NASAR for our training.  I remember spending weekends at the local Guard base attending their FUNSAR classes.

When I was packing for my move last month I actually found my FUNSAR manuals!  It was interesting to see the difference from current requirements.

[Hawk200]

First, with my comment as to what is WRONG.  I don't mean prohibited, but I do mean incorrect.  Comba gear isn't prohibited, but that doesn't mean its RIGHT, either!  Furthermore, I'd fully agree that a MOLLE vest in blaze orange complies with the letter and intent of the "orange vest" requirement.  That said, low-visibility colored COMBAT gear does not enhance a credible image and reputation.

Just because a military member wears something doesn't mean it's "combat gear". What exactly is inappropriate? I wear a Camelbak as a soldier, does that mean that it's unsuitable for me an on ground team? Do you think of a MOLLE pocket designed to carry cell phone or radio as "combat gear" and therefore unsuitable because a soldier carries it? Or is it a simple matter of anything that isn't designed to be "hi vis" inappropriate? That doesn't really sound like a practicality problem, it sounds like a prejudice.

Personally, I would like to see an orange or yellow shirt approved for ground ops. Yep, just a shirt. When you get to a mission site, you take off your BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc shirt, and put on the hi vis one. Quick, simple, no need to design a complete uniform (or have a need to change into another one). Top that off with a load bearing system in hi vis colors, and you're set. But that isn't currently an option. We wear a complete uniform with an orange vest. That's the rules.

Refuting industry standards (ie NASAR) with a comment of, "CAP National HQ hasn't adopted them" means you aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and aren't leading us as an emergency response organization in the right direction.  CAP has clamped its hands over its ears for far to long when it comes to the SAR mission.  If we continue to do so, we're going to continue to be marginalized.  The time is now to put our input into ESF 9.  The NASAR standard is different, and often higher, than that for CAP ground teams.  As such, its an excellent form of continuation training.  Please don't poo-poo it only because its unfamiliar.

You've missed the point. The NASAR Manual is a great resource. I don't contest that. But it is not our current guideline for our operations. You can't hold anyone in CAP to it. If you're trying or insisting or being judgemental, you're not doing anything to solve the problem.

On that note, what are you doing to solve the problem? Have you sent anything up the chain to try to improve our operations? Do you have the cred to do so, or are you simply satisfied standing on the outside and belittling the current way? Before you ask, I haven't done so. I'm not a SAR guru, or expert, or god; my knowledge of these operations aren't extensive on this matter, I'm not an appropriate candidate to do so.

Now I'll toss the grenade.  If we're in the business of "Search" only, then why do we have ground teams at all? 

Our ground teams supplement air recon, but they also stand on their own. In heavy wooded areas where you're looking for a lost child, an airplane may be unusable for the simple fact that they can't see through the tree cover. Ground teams are in the middle of those trees.

Second, when an aircraft spots a target, how do you know it's the right one? Can that aircrew at 1000 ft AGL read the tail number? As an example, Alaska wing had an active search that found another aircraft that had been unaccounted for for almost 15 years. Would it have been wise to say "We found it" and return to base? No, an aircrew remains on station until it's verified. This isn't a lone incident either, it has been repeated numerous times over the past decades.

Rescue doesn't mean evacuation or extrication (necessarily), nor does it mean technical rescue.  It DOES mean that you have the responsibility for coordinating such efforts if they are necessary.

An interesting point, and one I hadn't considered. Maybe we need to be teaching this mindset in our training as well. And coordination is rarely a bad thing.

[es_g0d]

Just because a military member wears something doesn't mean it's "combat gear". What exactly is inappropriate? I wear a Camelbak as a soldier, does that mean that it's unsuitable for me an on ground team? Do you think of a MOLLE pocket designed to carry cell phone or radio as "combat gear" and therefore unsuitable because a soldier carries it? Or is it a simple matter of anything that isn't designed to be "hi vis" inappropriate? That doesn't really sound like a practicality problem, it sounds like a prejudice.

I do have a prejudice against things that do not help our image and operability.  I'd agree with you that all of the items listed are permissible to use, but not the preference.  As a leader, I evaluate what is appropriate and what isn't.  Let's say that an individual was wearing a M9 pistol holster on his/her hip.  Even if empty (or filled with something innocuous such as a radio), I'd hope we'd both agree that the item is inappropriate--even if its not expressly forbidden by regulation!  I'm not attempting to set up the straw man, I'm simply pointing out that each of us would have limits.  For the record, I certainly wouldn't exclude someone from participating in SAR activity simply because they were using low-visibility colored gear.  Far from it!  If they're squared away, they're an asset I'm not going to turn down!  I'm simply stating the preference--AS A LEADER (ie senior member!) in CAP is to use appropriate gear, with a preference towards high visibility.  Hey, for the record, I still have my old ALICE gear and I use it for my 72 hour pack.  For shorter operations, I'll use a SRU-21/P survival vest to hold my goodies.  Yup, both low-vis pieces of equipment!  Why?  Because I bought them in my younger hooah days, and/or got them for cheap or free via CAP sources.  The root question was, "what color should I buy?" and that, hopefully, has been answered.

Personally, I would like to see an orange or yellow shirt approved for ground ops. Yep, just a shirt. When you get to a mission site, you take off your BDU, BBDU, ABU, etc shirt, and put on the hi vis one. Quick, simple, no need to design a complete uniform (or have a need to change into another one). Top that off with a load bearing system in hi vis colors, and you're set. But that isn't currently an option. We wear a complete uniform with an orange vest. That's the rules.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Our uniforms are not centered around our mission.

You've missed the point. The NASAR Manual is a great resource. I don't contest that. But it is not our current guideline for our operations. You can't hold anyone in CAP to it. If you're trying or insisting or being judgemental, you're not doing anything to solve the problem.

I'm not being judgmental, I'm simply referencing a reputable authority.  I CAN and DO hold people to a higher standard.  Just because our task guides say X, that doesn't mean that's the end of the story.  I'd like every GT member to know about X, Y, and Z.  The task guide is a minimum standard.

On that note, what are you doing to solve the problem? Have you sent anything up the chain to try to improve our operations? Do you have the cred to do so, or are you simply satisfied standing on the outside and belittling the current way? Before you ask, I haven't done so. I'm not a SAR guru, or expert, or god; my knowledge of these operations aren't extensive on this matter, I'm not an appropriate candidate to do so.

I've published a CAP Emergency Services website for the past 10+ years.  I've been an advocate for CAP missions in my role as an active duty Air Force Officer and pilot.  I've authored significant portions of the ES curriculum used by CAP.  I wrote the CAP Inflight Guide (great for GTMs, too!).  And I've taught at NESA since 2002.  You're right, though, its clearly not enough, so I'm working on that too.   

For the record, I'm not belittling ANY individual in ANY post I make here.  I wish to only point the clear path we as an organization need to take.  I value every volunteer and his/her contributions.  I wouldn't be involved if it weren't for the outstanding quality of people in CAP.

An interesting point, and one I hadn't considered. Maybe we need to be teaching this mindset in our training as well. And coordination is rarely a bad thing.

Ah, Air to Ground Coordination!  The fundamental skill we don't work at enough!  In CAP we've got a strong "air" tribe and a strong "ground" tribe -- and too seldom do the two meet!  The tasks put forth to a Ground Team are clearly daunting, and verification of the objective is an important one, but not the ALL important one.  As you clearly pointed out, there is no "rescue" from an airplane, so Ground Teams are clearly necessary--FOR the RESCUE!