Putting a pack together

[fokkerfrenzy]

I was hoping to get some insight/ recommendations from people who've had some experience.  Is there a better way of putting together a 24/72 hours pack from scratch than buying everything one piece at a time?

Obviously some things can only be bought separately, notebooks, flashlights, etc.  I was wondering if anyone has a found a good source for some of the other bits like the climbing stuff, and first aid.  Is there anywhere to get a kit that contains most of these items that is affordable, and won't have a lot of stuff left over that won't go in?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you guys might have.

[Eclipse]

There is no climbing gear required for CAP.

The 24 hour gear can be put together in the camping aisle at Walmart for ~$50, which is what I recommend for
new members getting started.

If they stick with it, they can upgrade as they need to and learn what works best, if they decide GT is not for them,
everything can be used for regular camping and every day use.

[fokkerfrenzy]

Or, a good source for buying items in an amount that would work to split between a few people and go in together on the cost?

[fokkerfrenzy]

There are a couple of items on the GSARSS gear list that they recommended a climbing store that may be a bit more expensive.  It's not on the ES gear list, I should have specified, I apologize.

[fokkerfrenzy]

Also, since there doesn't seem to be a source for such a thing, what do you think the pros/cons might be of buying in bulk and marketing 24 hour packs preassembled for CAP members?

[a2capt]

"the climbing stuff".

What list are you using?

.. and there's a "modify" button, for posts.

[Eclipse]

No idea what a GSARSS list is, but the 24 hour gear is all you need to participate in CAP GT activities.

Pros and cons?  You want us to build out your business model?

$50 is the low-end, the high-end is "whatever you have", neither is going to be a good fit for "marketing 24 hour packs".

[fokkerfrenzy]

I was just curious if it had ever been tried. Or if it were at all advisable.  Just a random idea I had.

[sarmed1]

"the climbing stuff".

What list are you using?

.. ...

No idea what a GSARSS list is, but the 24 hour gear is all you need to participate in CAP GT activities.
...

GSARSS-Ground Search and Rescue Specialty School-its the GT component of TXWG's ES school.  Part of the GTM portion they test NASAR SAR Tech II, , and part of the required equipment is 2 locking 'biners, 2 prussik slings and a section of 1" tubular webbing.

mk

[Storm Chaser]

I recommend you don't buy your compass at Walmart. You can buy a better, reasonably priced compass at Amazon's for less than $15.

Suunto A-10

[Walkman]

If you want to buy "bulk" and share with others, you could probably buy larger boxes of much of the 1st Aid items at Walmart (or Sam's if there's a ton of people). I'm sure you could get some people to split a case of MREs for the 2 meals reqirement. Paracord can be bought in large spools to be cut up with several people.

<topic drift>
If you buy paracord, don't get it in any of the tactical colors. Since we're not in the war fighting biz, we don't need camo, and not clotheslining a squadron buddy some night on a campout 'cuz they didn't see your line would be appreciated. I've got both red & hi-viz orange cord.
</topic drift>

[fokkerfrenzy]

I recommend you don't buy your compass at Walmart. You can buy a better, reasonably priced compass at Amazon's for less than $15.

Suunto A-10

I asked for this specific one for christmas. 

[LSThiker]

<topic drift>
If you buy paracord, don't get it in any of the tactical colors. Since we're not in the war fighting biz, we don't need camo, and not clotheslining a squadron buddy some night on a campout 'cuz they didn't see your line would be appreciated. I've got both red & hi-viz orange cord.
</topic drift>

Paracord.com has glow-in-the-dark and reflective paracord. 

[a2capt]

Wherever you buy a compass, if it's a retail establishment and they try to scan it, and have the demagnetizer for "secured" products inline with the scanner .. hold onto what you have and ask them to use the hand scanner.

[fokkerfrenzy]

Interesting, I've never considered that.  Good advice, a2, thanks.

[Garibaldi]

<topic drift>
If you buy paracord, don't get it in any of the tactical colors. Since we're not in the war fighting biz, we don't need camo, and not clotheslining a squadron buddy some night on a campout 'cuz they didn't see your line would be appreciated. I've got both red & hi-viz orange cord.
</topic drift>

Paracord.com has glow-in-the-dark and reflective paracord. 

The female cadets love that paracord is available in hot pink.

[Storm Chaser]

Wherever you buy a compass, if it's a retail establishment and they try to scan it, and have the demagnetizer for "secured" products inline with the scanner .. hold onto what you have and ask them to use the hand scanner.

Regardless of this potential issue, compasses sold at retailers like Walmart are just junk, and not suitable for land navigation during GSAR operations.

[a2capt]

Not always "just junk", and if that's all you have..

[LSThiker]

Wherever you buy a compass, if it's a retail establishment and they try to scan it, and have the demagnetizer for "secured" products inline with the scanner .. hold onto what you have and ask them to use the hand scanner.

Regardless of this potential issue, compasses sold at retailers like Walmart are just junk, and not suitable for land navigation during GSAR operations.

That depends on what you mean by "not suitable for land navigation".  I have turned in many military issued compasses because they were not accurate or precise.  It was not until my supply NCO got annoyed and issued me a brand new compass.  Fortunately, he forgot to have me sign for it 

Regardless of the manufacturer, most people never verify the accuracy and precision of their compass.  If it is within 3 degrees, it is fine.  I have always preferred using terrain association for land navigation and only use my compass for taking a bearing in order to plot on a map, to simply orient my map, or if I am having a problem during a night navigation course.  Of course, there is the notable exception for when doing navigation courses on flat deserts, but I doubt the majority of people will ever have that opportunity.   

[Eclipse]

Regardless of this potential issue, compasses sold at retailers like Walmart are just junk, and not suitable for land navigation during GSAR operations.

Strongly non-concur.

CAP operates in a +/- 5 degree universe.  For the average member doing the average mission, the human factor
is going to introduce more error then a resonably working compass, which yes, you should check when you buy it.

This:  http://www.walmart.com/ip/Stansport-Deluxe-Map-Compass/10927620


and this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Stansport-Lensatic-Compass-Black-Case/10927618


...are fine, especially for new members and cadets.  If you know how to use them, they will get you where you
need to be, within the margins of error we work in.

Just as we all know Android is clearly better then iOS, there will always be "better", or more specifically "more expensive".
Good on 'ye if you can afford it and want to spend the money out of the gate, but the truth is CAP
could probably fund a year or two of operations if we just scooped up and sold all the GT gear that
was 300% more then a member ever needs and wound up in the bottom of the tool box after the first bivouac.

The actual reality is that anyone carrying a smartphone, or an iOS device, can download a free compass app
that will work just as well or better then most hand-held devices, and suit the same need.

[Ed Bos]

Regardless of this potential issue, compasses sold at retailers like Walmart are just junk, and not suitable for land navigation during GSAR operations.

Strongly non-concur.

CAP operates in a +/- 5 degree universe.  For the average member doing the average mission, the human factor
is going to introduce more error then a resonably working compass, which yes, you should check when you buy it.

...are fine, especially for new members and cadets.  If you know how to use them, they will get you where you
need to be, within the margins of error we work in.

Respectfully non-concur.

The training materials we use specify using compasses with 2 degree graduation, and purchasing the best you can afford at front means you spend less in the long term.

I find that inexpensive orienteering compasses frequently acquire air bubbles in the housing that push the needle off course, and that they need to be replaced if they are going to be used for land navigation.

Also the "+/- 5 degree universe" you speak of isn't universal. I've had to use my compass for cross-country land navigation before, and accuracy matters.

Cheers.

[Ed Bos]

I was hoping to get some insight/ recommendations from people who've had some experience.  Is there a better way of putting together a 24/72 hours pack from scratch than buying everything one piece at a time?

Obviously some things can only be bought separately, notebooks, flashlights, etc.  I was wondering if anyone has a found a good source for some of the other bits like the climbing stuff, and first aid.  Is there anywhere to get a kit that contains most of these items that is affordable, and won't have a lot of stuff left over that won't go in?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you guys might have.

You're probably much better off speaking to someone in your local area with experience, rather than a bunch of folks from all over the country who do things a little differently. I teach at the NESA Ground Team Leader course frequently, so I hope I have a decent leg to stand on in terms of experience... It is usually a good idea to go with local area knowledge.

PM me if you'd like some points of contact in your area, but I'd recommend starting with your unit ES or SAR Officer.

Cheers.

[LSThiker]

Also the "+/- 5 degree universe" you speak of isn't universal. I've had to use my compass for cross-country land navigation before, and accuracy matters.

While +/- 5 degree is not "universal", it is the standard for CAP.  Anything less is not necessary for the vast majority of missions in CAP.  The vast majority of members will only use the compass for simply taking an ELT bearing and will never do anything remotely similar to land navigation outside of the training required for CAP. 

Cross-country orienteering, as defined by International Orienteering Foundation, is simply finding the same set points in the same order.  Distance is not defined although the IOF defines a "classic" or "long" course as being able to finish within 90 minutes.  Courses will typically consist of 6 to 12 control points.  So simply saying a cross-country course does not mean much as the longest point could only be 200 meters or 400 meters away. 

Besides, land navigation over miles or kilometers is best done by terrain association.  Compass navigation is best left to shorter distances of less than 1 km, optimally less than 500 m for most people, between control points in my opinion.  Can compass navigation be done for long distances?  Sure as evidenced in the past, but it depends on what you want to call within your margin of error. 

[Eclipse]

Also the "+/- 5 degree universe" you speak of isn't universal. I've had to use my compass for cross-country land navigation before, and accuracy matters.

While +/- 5 degree is not "universal", it is the standard for CAP.  Anything less is not necessary for the vast majority of missions in CAP.  The vast majority of members will only use the compass for simply taking an ELT bearing and will never do anything remotely similar to land navigation outside of the training required for CAP. 

Exactly - whatever may, or may not, be relevent, appropriate, or "better" for some other agency or organization is irreverent in discussions specific to CAP
requirements.

If the member also participates in the "Hyper Accurate Orienteering & Explorers Club of America (Lower Section, West Quadrant), then they may
have other needs to balance the higher cost of a more accurate compass.  That's no different then a CAP member who is also a ham and decides
to spend $3000 on a radio when $75 would suffice.

For the things CAP members will use their compass' for - basic land nav (i.e. which way is North), triangulation of their position or the location
of something else during a search, etc., That $10 compass, assuming it is working correctly, is fine, as is the app on their phone.

A new GTM can find everything they need in the camping aisle at Walmart.  The more serious move up to Target, and the HardKewl go to
Bass Pro Shops.   Those with more dollars then sense start off on the internet buying a $200 molle vest and level up from there.

And at the end of the day, the ELT is located "over there, somewhere", most lunches come from McDonald's, and the "shelters" have towel service.

[a2capt]

LOL, "the more serious move up to Target".

It's the same stuff. Ozark vs. Embark. Woopdie-doo.

[Storm Chaser]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are created equal. Since Ed is a GSAR Team Leader instructor at NESA, I'll defer to his judgement. Others are welcome to disagree.

I own a Walmart lensatic compass, which I've used in the field, and it's not a very good compass. For less than $7 more, the Suunto A-10 is a much better deal than the Stansport orienteering compass available at Walmart. To me, it's a no brainer.

[ReCAP]

Anything with a magnetized needle is going to point North.  However, take a close look at the first one:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Stansport-Deluxe-Map-Compass/10927620

You draw your course on the map, lay the edge of the baseplate on the line, rotate the bezel until the orientation lines match the grid on the map.  Now just read your course off the bezel where the index line is... wait...  There is no index line! 

[LSThiker]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are created equal. Since Ed is a GSAR Team Leader instructor at NESA, I'll defer to his judgement. Others are welcome to disagree.

Ever hear of the fallacy: appeal to authority or argument of authority?

The point is that while not every compass is created equally, price does not determine the quality of a compass. Some cases that is true. For example, comparing my silnylon tent to a tent made for walmart. Sure my tent will cost more, but that is because it is made of better fabric that is lighter and stronger.  However that tent from walmart is good enough for CAP missions. Just because it is sold at Walmart or equal stores does not mean it is junk and wont work for CAP.  I have gotten rid of many military compasses, which value somewhere around $90 to $100 IRC.  Does that mean they are junk as well?

[Eclipse]

I own a Walmart lensatic compass, which I've used in the field, and it's not a very good compass. For less than $7 more, the Suunto A-10 is a much better deal than the Stansport orienteering compass available at Walmart. To me, it's a no brainer.

Yes, and for $7 more, and $12 more, etc., etc.

I have an artillery compass that's marked in MILS,

used properly, the accuracy of a standard compass of any type will pale in comparison.  It's also functionally useless for CAP work.

The average person doesn't need a Stiletto TB15MS hammer, either.  The $7 one from the next aisle over from the camping gear,
or even the little one in the home Christmas kit will do just fine.  The Stilletto will last longer and work better, in the right hands, but
works exactly the same when it's sitting in the drawer.

Yes you can spend more for higher quality tools that will last longer and give you a potentially better experience.
But that doesn't change the fact that you can complete a functional 24-hour kit in the camping aisle for under $50.

[Storm Chaser]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but not all opinions are created equal. Since Ed is a GSAR Team Leader instructor at NESA, I'll defer to his judgement. Others are welcome to disagree.

Ever hear of the fallacy: appeal to authority or argument of authority?

The point is that while not every compass is created equally, price does not determine the quality of a compass. Some cases that is true. For example, comparing my silnylon tent to a tent made for walmart. Sure my tent will cost more, but that is because it is made of better fabric that is lighter and stronger.  However that tent from walmart is good enough for CAP missions. Just because it is sold at Walmart or equal stores does not mean it is junk and wont work for CAP.  I have gotten rid of many military compasses, which value somewhere around $90 to $100 IRC.  Does that mean they are junk as well?

Except that I never argued that "price... determines the quality of a compass". I presented an economical alternative to the compass available at Walmart. Please reread my posts.

[Storm Chaser]

...It's also functionally useless for CAP work...

That's certainly YOUR opinion, but not necessarily that of every active ground team leader in CAP.

Cheers!

[Eclipse]

...It's also functionally useless for CAP work...

That's certainly YOUR opinion, but not necessarily that of every active ground team leader in CAP.

Cheers!

I'll bite, what possible use is a compass in mils to CAP in the context of entry-level equipment for newbs
and our +/-5 universe.

[LSThiker]

Except that I never argued that "price... determines the quality of a compass". I presented an economical alternative to the compass available at Walmart. Please reread my posts.

You stated:

Regardless of this potential issue, compasses sold at retailers like Walmart are just junk, and not suitable for land navigation during GSAR operations.

and then when I asked why, you stated:

For less than $7 more, the Suunto A-10 is a much better deal than the Stansport orienteering compass available at Walmart. To me, it's a no brainer.

This sounded as though you were implying because the Sunnto A-10 is $7 more it is better than the Walmart compasses.  So again, why do you think they are not suitable for land navigation or CAP work?

[ol'fido]

A Silva Polaris compass is probably $12-15 and you can sometimes find them at Walmart or at least you used to be able to. That is probably sufficient for the average GTM. GTLs on the other hand would probably want to upgrade to a Silva Guide compass(about $25-30). If you want be super high speed double that ($50) for a Silva Ranger. You can also go for the equivalents from Sunto or Brunton.

+/-3* is what I was taught and used in the Army and in CAP. That was generally sufficient. +/- 1* is probably good for orienteering to pin point targets. If you are smart, you can use a =/- 5* as well as one of the more precise compasses.

[Eclipse]

O-201 Use a compass from the GT & Urban task guide:

"1. Successfully give the magnetic azimuth to a distant object +/- 5 degrees within 2 minutes. "

Honestly?  I was shocked when I saw that myself (1 Million years ago), since you can get yourself pretty
far off course with +/-5, especially if you shoot it far off and keep introducing the same error, but it is what it is.

[Storm Chaser]

O-201 Use a compass from the GT & Urban task guide:

"1. Successfully give the magnetic azimuth to a distant object +/- 5 degrees within 2 minutes. "

Honestly?  I was shocked when I saw that myself (1 Million years ago), since you can get yourself pretty
far off course with +/-5, especially if you shoot it far off and keep introducing the same error, but it is what it is.

That refers to the evaluation criteria to pass that task, not the level in which "CAP operates", as you described on a previous post.

[LSThiker]

O-201 Use a compass from the GT & Urban task guide:

"1. Successfully give the magnetic azimuth to a distant object +/- 5 degrees within 2 minutes. "

Honestly?  I was shocked when I saw that myself (1 Million years ago), since you can get yourself pretty
far off course with +/-5, especially if you shoot it far off and keep introducing the same error, but it is what it is.

Hopefully the GTL is smart and has more than 1 person shooting azimuths.  While I agree that +/- 5 degrees is a lot for land navigation, it is probably based more on the use of shooting an azimuth for an ELT signal, which really does not matter if it is +/-3 or +/-5 degrees.  It is what was produced by NESA back long ago and it does not seem to have really affected anyone.

more precise compasses.

Oh another annoyance.  Difference between precise and accurate.  I think you really meant accurate compasses

[LSThiker]

That refers to the evaluation criteria to pass that task, not the level in which "CAP operates", as you described on a previous post.

And where is this standard for CAP operation stated since it is not the standard for CAP training?  A smart organization does not have two standards:  one that it trains to and one that it operates at. 

[Eclipse]

That refers to the evaluation criteria to pass that task, not the level in which "CAP operates", as you described on a previous post.

And where is this standard for CAP operation stated since it is not the standard for CAP training?  A smart organization does not have two standards:  one that it trains to and one that it operates at.

+1

[Storm Chaser]

That refers to the evaluation criteria to pass that task, not the level in which "CAP operates", as you described on a previous post.

And where is this standard for CAP operation stated since it is not the standard for CAP training?  A smart organization does not have two standards:  one that it trains to and one that it operates at.

No, but allowing for error that can easily be avoided is not conducive to safe and effective operations either. For example, if my compass is off by 3° and, while operating it I inadvertently induce an additional error of 3°, now I'm off by 6°. And the worst part is that I may not be aware of it.

I'm not going to continue beating this horse to death. The OP asked a question and I offered an opinion and suggestion. I think he has enough information to make his own decision.

[Eclipse]

No, but allowing for error that can easily be avoided is not conducive to safe and effective operations either. For example, if my compass is off by 3° and, while operating it I inadvertently induce an additional error of 3°, now I'm off by 6°. And the worst part is that I may not be aware of it.

In this respect +/-5 degrees isn't an error, its the operational tolerance, based on someone making a judgement call
on CAP's operational environment.

Just as two decimals of LAT/LONG is more then accurate enough to find a fire hydrant, but not accurate enough to place a fire hydrant.

3° of error will introduce about 270 linear feet of error at 1 mile's distance.  Rarely in CAP is anyone going to be navigating a full mile
without reshooting the azimuth or referencing a map, but even if you are, unless you are walking like a lemming (wive's tale) off the edge of
cliffs to stay on track, 300 feet is still well within a safe range to signal a plane, indicate your location, or find a road, which is about all
we ever use the compass' for , anyway.

And as also pointed out, there's supposed to be at least 3-4 other compass' on the team, and more then one person shooting.  Generally
it's pretty quick and easy to see which guy hasn't read the directions or who hung a dog tag on the lanyard clip (because it looks cool).

No one is getting dropped into a hot LZ and then being forced to navigate out while also micro plotting artillery coordinates.

[LSThiker]

For example, if my compass is off by 3° and, while operating it I inadvertently induce an additional error of 3°, now I'm off by 6°. And the worst part is that I may not be aware of it.

If your compass is off by 3 degrees or any significant amount and you are not aware of it, then the person training you has performed a disservice to you.  The start of any land navigation course, training, verification, or other evaluation should always include, in my opinion as well as the opinion of orienteering groups, an area to verify the accuracy and precision of your compass.  Also, if you do not perform periodic testing and verification, then you are not exactly conducting an individual refit and ensuring you are ready for a mission.

[fokkerfrenzy]

Respectfully, can we get back on task?