Blue Utility Jumpsuit for GSAR

Started by Spaceman3750, January 13, 2011, 01:42:22 PM

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Spaceman3750

So I've been thinking increasingly about the blue utility jumpsuit and whether or not one could find a home in my ground team go-box that's supposed to be sitting in the trunk of my car. What are your guys' thoughts on the jumpsuit in terms of comfort, range of movement, and general usability for ground team work? It would definitely be simpler than BDUs, but does the quality match up with ripstop BDUs or if I get into a thorny area am I going to have a jumpsuit being ripped to shreds?

Also, during training, what are your thoughts on the uniform of the day issues caused by the jumpsuit (other than, you know, asking the project officer, which is what I would do anyways)? Obviously nobody's designating it as the UOD because very few people use one.

Thom

I wouldn't go traipsing around the woods in one myself. The Rothco brand that Vanguard sells is pretty thin fabric, and doesn't seem terribly tough. It is nowhere near the durability and toughness of typical BDUs, more like some old, thin ripstop fabric, minus the actual ripstopping grid. It can be comfortable, but not significantly better or worse than BDUs, and the range of movement is only limited if you buy it too small.

They do work well for aircrew duty and they can be pretty handy for a mission base outfit. No need to drag around a pair of slacks and a polo or aviator shirt, just carry the jumpsuit and maybe a t-shirt to match and you are good to go.


Thom

Angus

I used to have one for Squadron Meetings and ES Activities where I would be at Mission Base or in the Air.  Definitely way too thin for Ground Work.  However for a quick and easy uniform to get into for meetings (if you have to contend with work) it's a great idea.  I need to try and get my hands on a new one, my last one was too small.  Plus I"ve been promoted since so I figure it's easier to just get a new one and move the badges.
Maj. Richard J. Walsh, Jr.
Director Education & Training MAWG 
 Gill Robb Wilson #4030

EMT-83

I have a jumpsuit that I use for rappelling that works very well. I got the idea from some friends who wear them spelunking. As pointed out, range of motion shouldn't be a problem if properly sized.

They have an advantage that loose clothing isn't an issue, and there's no worry about your shirt coming untucked while hanging on a rope. Mine is a mechanics jumpsuit, so the material is pretty tough. I've never ripped it hiking through the woods.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: EMT-83 on January 13, 2011, 02:25:26 PM
I have a jumpsuit that I use for rappelling that works very well. I got the idea from some friends who wear them spelunking. As pointed out, range of motion shouldn't be a problem if properly sized.

They have an advantage that loose clothing isn't an issue, and there's no worry about your shirt coming untucked while hanging on a rope. Mine is a mechanics jumpsuit, so the material is pretty tough. I've never ripped it hiking through the woods.

Out of curiosity, can the one you have be had in the CAP distinctive color? If so, where can it be found?

EMT-83

I dunno. If I remember correctly, I ordered mine from Wearguard.

Eclipse

As I commented in a previous thread, the utility jumpsuit is much better suited to CAP Ground Ops than anything else.

Inexpensive, easy to configure / change / care for, and not a rainbow of color.  It is distinctive, yet professional, and doesn't get hung up
on stuff like your vest, car doors, etc.

On a CAP GT, you are much more likely to be doing a lot of in/out of a vehicle than being inserted to an aggressive area and camping for several days.  There is a reason tankers, pilots, aircrews, and similar wear an outfit like this in most services.

The Rothco version is not very hearty, and won't stand up to bramble, thorns, or tree-climbing, but should be fine for most people based on a few missions a year and some training.  It is also cheap enough to have several and easy to have stored in your car.  It can be worn with civilian shoes and requires no hat.

In comparison, BDU's are a PITA all the way around.


"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Eclipse on January 13, 2011, 03:45:27 PM
As I commented in a previous thread, the utility jumpsuit is much better suited to CAP Ground Ops than anything else.

Inexpensive, easy to configure / change / care for, and not a rainbow of color.  It is distinctive, yet professional, and doesn't get hung up
on stuff like your vest, car doors, etc.

On a CAP GT, you are much more likely to be doing a lot of in/out of a vehicle than being inserted to an aggressive area and camping for several days.  There is a reason tankers, pilots, aircrews, and similar wear an outfit like this in most services.

The Rothco version is not very hearty, and won't stand up to bramble, thorns, or tree-climbing, but should be fine for most people based on a few missions a year and some training.  It is also cheap enough to have several and easy to have stored in your car.  It can be worn with civilian shoes and requires no hat.

In comparison, BDU's are a PITA all the way around.
I find that there is not much in the world that is more comfortable than BDUs, except for ACUs, but that is because of better material and a better shape on the body. I don't get hung up on anything, if you have a pair of BDUs that are the right size for your body, you won't have the issues.

RiverAux

Outside of a few special situations where a "clean" outfit that has few things to get snagged on stuff (such as caving or rapelling, snow suits in winter months), I cannot think of a single profession (including the military) or recreational activity that uses jumpsuits in the outdoors.  That says it all to me -- if they were practical, they would be commonly used.  Instead, the trouser, shirt/jacket combo rules. 

Eclipse

#9
Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2011, 12:45:09 AM
Outside of a few special situations where a "clean" outfit that has few things to get snagged on stuff (such as caving or rapelling, snow suits in winter months), I cannot think of a single profession (including the military) or recreational activity that uses jumpsuits in the outdoors.  That says it all to me -- if they were practical, they would be commonly used.  Instead, the trouser, shirt/jacket combo rules.

Skydivers.

Lifeflight and other helo aircrews.

Race car drivers.

Motorcycle racers and recreational riders.

Astronauts.

Elvis impersonators.

Skiers.

Speed Skaters.

Mechanics.

Plumbers.

Delivery drivers.

Custodial Workers.

Clean Room Technicians.

The X-Men.

Firemen.

Construction workers.

Ghostbusters.






"That Others May Zoom"

wuzafuzz

X-Men and Ghostbusters!   :clap:  I'm in!
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

RVT

Quote from: wuzafuzz on January 14, 2011, 02:16:51 AM
X-Men and Ghostbusters!   :clap:  I'm in!

He had me at "Ghostbusters"

RiverAux

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 02:10:48 AM
Skydivers.
Lifeflight and other helo aircrews.
Race car drivers.
Motorcycle racers and recreational riders.
Astronauts.
Elvis impersonators.
Skiers.
Speed Skaters.
Mechanics.
Plumbers.
Delivery drivers.
Custodial Workers.
Clean Room Technicians.
The X-Men.
Firemen.
Construction workers.
Ghostbusters.
Nice examples except for the fact that not one of them is hiking around through the brush and brambles while they do those jobs. 

Or perhaps you were suggesting those as potential CAP missions so that the utility suit would finally make sense as a CAP uniform.

Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2011, 03:08:39 AM
Nice examples except for the fact that not one of them is hiking around through the brush and brambles while they do those jobs. 

Or perhaps you were suggesting those as potential CAP missions so that the utility suit would finally make sense as a CAP uniform.

Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2011, 12:45:09 AM
Outside of a few special situations where a "clean" outfit that has few things to get snagged on stuff (such as caving or rapelling, snow suits in winter months), I cannot think of a single profession (including the military) or recreational activity that uses jumpsuits in the outdoors. That says it all to me -- if they were practical, they would be commonly used.  Instead, the trouser, shirt/jacket combo rules.
I came up with 14 without even trying.

As to the brambles >I'm< the one who made the comment that the Rothco one probably won't hold up, but there are other versions just as robust as any BDU material, and in the CAP universe, there's a whole lot of ground ops that never see anything much in the woods.
Katrina and Kentucky, for starters, were perfect environments for the utilities.  Everything was on-road, trashed urban, getting in and out of vehicles all day.

"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 02:10:48 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2011, 12:45:09 AM
Outside of a few special situations where a "clean" outfit that has few things to get snagged on stuff (such as caving or rapelling, snow suits in winter months), I cannot think of a single profession (including the military) or recreational activity that uses jumpsuits in the outdoors.  That says it all to me -- if they were practical, they would be commonly used.  Instead, the trouser, shirt/jacket combo rules.

Skydivers.

Lifeflight and other helo aircrews.

Race car drivers.

Motorcycle racers and recreational riders.

Astronauts.

Elvis impersonators.

Skiers.

Speed Skaters.

Mechanics.

Plumbers.

Delivery drivers.

Custodial Workers.

Clean Room Technicians.

The X-Men.

Firemen.

Construction workers.

Ghostbusters.
All of which run the risk of being set ablaze... yes I said all. I even mean the Elvis impersonators, especially the Elvis impersonators. >:D

How big of a risk do you think you run of being set ablaze in the field?

EDIT: If you say you have a big risk of being set ablaze in the field, then you are doing something very very very wrong.

Eclipse

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 03:49:08 AM
How big of a risk do you think you run of being set ablaze in the field?

EDIT: If you say you have a big risk of being set ablaze in the field, then you are doing something very very very wrong.

Zero, we are not discussing Nomex or flightsuits.

We are discussing the blue utility suit.  I'll line out the ones potentially in fire retardant gear.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

You didn't need to remove the motorcycle folks. They rarely have to worry about fires.  Besides, leather really sux for fire protection.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

manfredvonrichthofen

I will say that I have spent plenty of time in the sand box and in the mountains wearing both DCU (cut exactly the same as BDU) and ACU (better cut). I have to say that I have never had an issue getting caught on anything, even getting in and out of a HWMMV. I have scaled walls, rappelled out of helicopters, gotten into literal life and death situations and haven't had any issues with them. The only issue I have had was the crotch ripping out of a few pairs of pants. If they work for us when we are in the sand box or in the mountains, they will do great for CAP in any environment we get into

Spaceman3750

As a reminder, we are talking about the CAP utility jumpsuit, not a flightsuit

Although, when I looked on Propper's site yesterday, their flightsuit looks almost identical to the Rothco jumpsuit.

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 14, 2011, 01:29:26 PM
As a reminder, we are talking about the CAP utility jumpsuit, not a flightsuit

Although, when I looked on Propper's site yesterday, their flight suit looks almost identical to the Rothco jumpsuit.
That is just the thing. CAP only uses the flight suit type utility anymore. If you look at VG's website, the blue utility jump suit is the flight suit, just not made with Nomex. There is also no reason to change to that uniform for field work. As I have said, and some others, if the BDU is still a good uniform for a combat deployment then it is perfect for what we need. If the "jumpsuit" were good for field work, then the entire military would be wearing it, yet no one is. Why is that?


davedove

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 14, 2011, 01:29:26 PM
As a reminder, we are talking about the CAP utility jumpsuit, not a flightsuit

Although, when I looked on Propper's site yesterday, their flight suit looks almost identical to the Rothco jumpsuit.
That is just the thing. CAP only uses the flight suit type utility anymore. If you look at VG's website, the blue utility jump suit is the flight suit, just not made with Nomex. There is also no reason to change to that uniform for field work. As I have said, and some others, if the BDU is still a good uniform for a combat deployment then it is perfect for what we need. If the "jumpsuit" were good for field work, then the entire military would be wearing it, yet no one is. Why is that?

I believe what Eclipse was saying is that it wouldn't be bad for the typical CAP fieldwork.  I know in my area, GT missions typically involve driving a lot and hopping out for short periods of time.  Sure there are exceptions, but that is the majority of time.  Now, this may be different in some areas, but it sure isn't in mine.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Eclipse

#21
Quote from: davedove on January 14, 2011, 03:33:59 PM
I believe what Eclipse was saying is that it wouldn't be bad for the typical CAP fieldwork.  I know in my area, GT missions typically involve driving a lot and hopping out for short periods of time.  Sure there are exceptions, but that is the majority of time.  Now, this may be different in some areas, but it sure isn't in mine.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Same goes for people with plate carriers and 50 lbs of tactical gear for do cornfield SAR for an Alzheimer's patient, or well-being checks in a DR.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
That is just the thing. CAP only uses the flight suit type utility anymore. If you look at VG's website, the blue utility jump suit is the flight suit, just not made with Nomex.

They are specifically different garments, with different mission intentions.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
There is also no reason to change to that uniform for field work.
Nothing is changing - the utility jumpsuit is, and always has been, approved for wear by GT & UDF teams.

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
As I have said, and some others, if the BDU is still a good uniform for a combat deployment then it is perfect for what we need.
We are not a combatant service, so anything "perfect" in that situation likely makes it a detractor for our use.  Further there are plenty of
service members who hate the ABU/ACU.

The USAF wears the ACU in the office for airmen who have no combatant or operational role.  Is it "perfect" in that instance as well?

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 02:31:10 PM
If the "jumpsuit" were good for field work, then the entire military would be wearing it, yet no one is. Why is that?
The military doesn't do what we do, nor in the way we do it.

Tactical pants and a golf shirt are more appropriate to 90-% of our operations than any other uniform we have available, including
air operations.

Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.

"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 05:24:50 PM
Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.
Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base, I will be dressed and ready to get in the dirt. I don't know how your guys dress their equipment but I am yet to see anyone in a plate carrier or the sort.

The majority of people's problems with the ACU and ABU including my problem is the pattern and color, neither of which is suitable for any environment that the military is in. Other than that we have loved the ACU, I have never worn the ABU, but I have seen and felt the fabric and all it is is is the BDU in a horrible camouflage pattern, with some nice extra pockets. If I could I would wear an ACU cut uniform in BDU pattern for CAP, it is the most comfortable thing I have ever worn. I have also worn jumpsuits for vehicle maintenance  in the Army, and they are very uncomfortable climbing around in them.

I think if you want to wear your jumpsuit in the field, go for it. Just don't take what is comfortable for me away just because you don't like it. The BDU works great. I have also been on SAR missions as a cadet, and I wore the BDU then as well, and I wouldn't have worn anything else then either.

Eclipse

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 05:24:50 PM
Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.
Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base

Then your expectations and understanding of what CAP does in these situations is incorrect.

The most aggressive operations Katrina were urban house to house well being checks in the DR.  The area was FUBAR, no question,
but the infrastructure was on its was to restoration, and beyond camping because the teams had to sleep "somewhere", no one was "in the dirt.

Our teams' single biggest advantage as a resource is the assumption of being self-sustaining if necessary, but the necessity for that, or anything approaching real field craft (beyond people doing it because they want to), is nearly zero.

What people on extended missions find out quickly is that by day two or three of actual "work" in the field, it ain't so much "fun" anymore,
and they would just as soon as hit a hotel or a cot in a highschool as wilderness camp.


"That Others May Zoom"

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 05:44:52 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on January 14, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2011, 05:24:50 PM
Anyone with experience in large-scale missions will know that the only people wearing military tactical uniforms during ops like Katrina, KY, Challenger, Fossett, etc., are the military, and maybe a few random LEA's or similar who expect to be in the dirt.  Everyone else is in dockets and a golf shirt with an agency logo.
Well if in a large scale mission like Katrina, I do expect to be in the dirt, not in mission base. I perform ground ops, I try not to be in mission base, if I need to be in mission base

Then your expectations and understanding of what CAP does in these situations is incorrect.

The most aggressive operations Katrina were urban house to house well being checks in the DR.  The area was FUBAR, no question,
but the infrastructure was on its was to restoration, and beyond camping because the teams had to sleep "somewhere", no one was "in the dirt.

Our teams' single biggest advantage as a resource is the assumption of being self-sustaining if necessary, but the necessity for that, or anything approaching real field craft (beyond people doing it because they want to), is nearly zero.

What people on extended missions find out quickly is that by day two or three of actual "work" in the field, it ain't so much "fun" anymore,
and they would just as soon as hit a hotel or a cot in a highschool as wilderness camp.
Day one no one should think it is fun. It is work. So there is no chance or need to have a team ready to search for a missing person or group of people in a natural disaster is that what your saying?

Being "in the dirt" doesn't mean you are sleeping there, it means you are working there.

RiverAux

Still waiting for examples of full-time professionals who work out in the woods/forest/deserts doing work equivalent to what a CAP ground SAR team does that wear jumpsuits. 

If the people who do it for a living wear some variation of pants and shirt rather than a 1 piece jumpsuit, that says an awful lot about what is really practical. 

Over 20 years working in the woods and have yet to see a jumpsuit. 

EMT-83

^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

RiverAux

I hadn't thought of that, but you're absolutely right and its a darn fine reason not to use them. 

Spaceman3750

Quote from: EMT-83 on January 14, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper  >:D

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 14, 2011, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 14, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper  >:D
That could be one rather painful zipper.

jeders

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 14, 2011, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 14, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper  >:D

Or a button up flap. Makes them even more like footy pajamas.  ;D
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

wuzafuzz

Bottom line: dress for your day. 

Utility jumpsuit for GSAR?  Not in my neck of the woods.  I'll take BDU's or BBDU's.  For UDF?  Sure.  Mission base?  Why not...I prefer the polo for ICP duty but that's just my preference.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

RiverAux

Now, I will say that if I was in an urban area with an extremely high ELT mission tempo (if such a place exists anymore), that the jumpsuit might make its way into my car during the parts of the year where the weather is mild.  Being able to slip it over another set of clothes does have its advantages in those situations. 

arBar

Quote from: jeders on January 14, 2011, 10:12:50 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 14, 2011, 09:20:49 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on January 14, 2011, 08:48:37 PM
^ My theory – it's too hard to go potty in the woods wearing a jumpsuit.

Just have your seamstress add a zipper  >:D

Or a button up flap. Makes them even more like footy pajamas.  ;D

Trying to picture how that reg change would be announced if it ever went into effect.  That could be funny  ;)

Spaceman3750

Quote from: RiverAux on January 14, 2011, 08:33:13 PM
Still waiting for examples of full-time professionals who work out in the woods/forest/deserts doing work equivalent to what a CAP ground SAR team does that wear jumpsuits. 


Credit: Goldman Sachs (http://www2.goldmansachs.com/our-firm/progress/energy/index.html)

I saw the full-size ad in Wired, it's a jumpsuit, I promise. I know we aren't climbing wind turbines in CAP but I'm pretty sure it's a very demanding job on one's clothing.

RiverAux

Yep, and its very similar to the other activities I mentioned in my first post -- those where you want to keep flaps of clothing and dangling bits to a minimum so that they don't cause a safety risk.  As someone who has done a limited amount of work in safety harnesses of one type or another, I would wear a jumpsuit if possible in those situations as well. 

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: RiverAux on January 15, 2011, 07:41:44 PM
Yep, and its very similar to the other activities I mentioned in my first post -- those where you want to keep flaps of clothing and dangling bits to a minimum so that they don't cause a safety risk.  As someone who has done a limited amount of work in safety harnesses of one type or another, I would wear a jumpsuit if possible in those situations as well.
I have spent plenty of time in a harness most of which was hanging from a helicopter and some of it while moving. I have never had an issue with my uniform or anything getting caught. This was with body armor a pack on my back a rifle hanging on my side a pistol on my thigh and some times even an RPG hanging on my back. If I didn't have any trouble with my BDU/ACU uniform then, I don't think there should be any issue in what CAP does while in BDUs.

RiverAux

Didn't say there was a problem with CAP BDUS -- I've been one of the ones saying jumpsuits would be silly for walking in the woods.  I was describing a situation where a jumpsuit might make sense. 

manfredvonrichthofen

Quote from: RiverAux on January 15, 2011, 07:51:07 PM
Didn't say there was a problem with CAP BDUS -- I've been one of the ones saying jumpsuits would be silly for walking in the woods.  I was describing a situation where a jumpsuit might make sense.
Believe me it wasn't a stab at you.

I just don't think there is a need for a jump/flightsuit anywhere but in a cramped space like a cockpit. Other than that you should use something that was made with the intent to be worn in the field for long term situations, something like the BDU that has been in place for over 50 years, the only thing that has changed about BDUs is the pattern and the cut. Other than that, it has always been boots, pants, t shirt, jacket and headgear. Every part plays an important role if they are worn properly. When you start using jumpsuits on the ground you will start running into problems, things like improper fit when layering underneath, inability to use the latrine, and many more, those are just two of the major issues.

Now I have to say that I have been around some soldiers that did wear a jumpsuit in the field, they were marine dog handlers, they hated wearing them. Being that they were attached to our TF they asked our 1SG if they could get a couple of pairs of ACUs, and our command said not a problem. Their complaints? They couldn't perform certain bodily functions while in the jumpsuit, when it was cold they couldn't layer under them without getting a wedgie because of it being one solid piece that starts at the shoulders and ends at the ankles, when you add size under the uniform, it won't fit right at all, they didn't breathe as well as the BDUs because there was no break in the uniform at the waist, and they didn't have enough pockets to store some items that they didn't want on their armor.