Handheld GPS

[Rescue826]

gotta love Sarcasm!  haha

I have seen many people in CAP and other SAR agencies not carry a compass because they had a GPS....bad idea!

[Major Lord]

Sentry7,

As far as Calculating POD, it has been said, that 87.4 % of statistics are made up on the spot....... Many SAR agencies use APRS (GPS telemetry) and even remote imaging technologies to visually verify that feet and eyeballs have been (or are) in an area in real time, and their value is more than just post facto. I suppose its possible that the same people who think that using moss on trees, sundials, and map and compass exclusively might be major  factors in helping us keep it caveman style! ( You can spot the anachronistic folks  by the radio shack CB's with channel ten crystals installed backwards in their go bags) I most strongly concur that GPS is the industry standard for professional SAR. CAP is somewhat schizophrenic on the idea of our actually being a SAR or disaster relief organization. Like VCR's or I-Phones, it may be futile trying to bring anyone above the age of 35 kicking and screaming into the modern age, but we can at least make sure the next generation of GTM's have the tools they need and the training to make use of them. That being said, I have nothing against map and compass and basic landnav skills ( God help me if I ever have to go through another field training though!) One of my deceased friends, a famous Dutch mathematician, told me that there is no human problem that cannot be solved by brute force and ignorance!

Major Lord

[manfredvonrichthofen]

When your GPS fails and you have no compass and map, what are you going to do? There is a massive need to stay "in the stone age" so that you can operate no matter the situation. Yes, technology is very helpful when you are working. Use technology every chance you get, but you need to have a backup. The military uses scopes, combat optics and all sorts of other equipment to help them do the job better, but they also know there is the chance that their advanced technology could fail, so they keep their iron sights available. We need to do the same, keep that old technology that works without batteries.

[Senty7]

^ MVR, what you describe are not mutually exclusive conditions.  Every ground team has at least one GPS on board (with spare batteries ), as well as a map and a quality compass.  All of these items get used extensively on every sortie. 

Moreover, I don't consider a mil-spec lensatic compass a stone tool.  It's a fine precision instrument, and an effective ground team uses theirs often, frequently to supplement what their GPS is telling them.

[Rescue826]

POD has nothing to go with GPS.  POD gets calculated BEFORE the sortie!  its based primarily on the terrain!

POD = What is the chance i will spot the target in this terrain.  Has nothing to do with actual search coverage!

It amazes me of all the OPS Chiefs, and IC's who dont know anything about search theory!

[Rescue826]

A smartphone is NOT a true GPS receiver. They rely on the prinicple of triangulation to operate. The phone uses the known coordinates of at least 2 cell towers to compute the location. In other words, no cell signal, no GPS...

FALSE.  EVERY phone manufactured after 2001 has a GPS receiver!

[davidsinn]

A smartphone is NOT a true GPS receiver. They rely on the prinicple of triangulation to operate. The phone uses the known coordinates of at least 2 cell towers to compute the location. In other words, no cell signal, no GPS...

FALSE.  EVERY phone manufactured after 2001 has a GPS receiver!

Not all of them allow the user to access the output of the chip though.

[Major Lord]

POD has nothing to go with GPS.  POD gets calculated BEFORE the sortie!  its based primarily on the terrain!

POD = What is the chance i will spot the target in this terrain.  Has nothing to do with actual search coverage!

It amazes me of all the OPS Chiefs, and IC's who dont know anything about search theory!

I would love to see how you are calculating the POD without factoring the presence of people and aircraft actually searching the area. Using my primitive mathematical skill set, I would estimate the POD of any given target to be near zero when no actual searchers enter the operational area......  Factors such as aircraft height, etc. directly impact the probability of detection.

Major Lord

[Major Lord]

An excellent primer on the basics of POD: http://www.cibolasar.org/newsletter/2-9.html   Part two is in the following volume.

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Probably the single biggest failing in CAP is this idea that everyone is single-thread / single-resource.
We are all part of teams.  The odds of every person's toys breaking at the same time are so remote as to not
be worth the discussion.    Systematic failures of advanced technologies are a different matter entirely and
the cause of the failures, natural or man-made, likely raises the ORM to the point where we aren't getting there until
things are back up and working, anyway.

Cell phones worked in NOLA and MS, despite the widespread destruction, and major infrastructure was being rebuilt
within a week.  That was before the newer, self-healing cell towers with autonomous power backup that we have today.

The HAM guys say we should never use a cell phone on a mission because "what if the system is down?"

The Compass guys say "no GPS" because "what if the system is down?"

The stone tablet paper guys say "no computers" because "what if the system is down?"

The above presupposes that whatever the "lessor", more "robust", "basic" technology is will always work in a pinch, which we know
is not the case by a long shot.  Radios break and suffer from the same power needs as anything else with on switches, compasses break when you drop/sit-on (or lose) them.  Paper gets wet, lost, suffers from illegible handwriting, and is not easily "sharable" without reverting to technology.

We need to use the best tool in the box we have on scene.  Period.  Some days it will be the internet and location-aware smartphones, some days it will be handheld radios and a manual compass.

[Rescue826]

POD has nothing to go with GPS.  POD gets calculated BEFORE the sortie!  its based primarily on the terrain!

POD = What is the chance i will spot the target in this terrain.  Has nothing to do with actual search coverage!

It amazes me of all the OPS Chiefs, and IC's who dont know anything about search theory!

I would love to see how you are calculating the POD without factoring the presence of people and aircraft actually searching the area. Using my primitive mathematical skill set, I would estimate the POD of any given target to be near zero when no actual searchers enter the operational area......  Factors such as aircraft height, etc. directly impact the probability of detection.

Major Lord

yes, altitude, search speed....all play a role in POD.  NOT were you have searched as far as GPS track.  Only terrain.

You can calculate and SHOULD calculate the POD BEFORE you enter the area.   you would have to know the terrain and a few other factors AMDR, etc...
the searcher DOES NOT tell you what the POD is!  this is a function on the PLANNING SECTION!

POD is simply the probability that you will detect a target  in the area. 
POD does not tell you if your target is in that area or not.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Probably the single biggest failing in CAP is this idea that everyone is single-thread / single-resource.
We are all part of teams.  The odds of every person's toys breaking at the same time are so remote as to not
be worth the discussion.

So you think every one in CAP is rich enough to afford a GPS? If every member of your GT is expected to have a GPS, do you pay for them all or do you expect CAP to pay for them or for your cadets to pay for them? I know not everyone in my team can afford a GPS, Generally only one or two GT members have a GPS.

[davidsinn]

I know not everyone in my team can afford a GPS, Generally only one or two GT members have a GPS.

Why would you need more than two? One primary and one backup. My GT only has one and I'm the only one that uses it because I am not handing my smartphone to anyone else. Too much personal data on it to risk loss or damage. I still teach map and compass and still use them because sometimes having lines on paper allow you to see the big picture that you might miss on a small screen.

[Rescue826]

One more reason why outside SAR agencies dont want to have anything to do with us... We are all under equipped, and have no standardization!

[HGjunkie]

One more reason why outside SAR agencies dont want to have anything to do with us... We are all under equipped, and have no standardization!

And we argue about everthing. 

[Rescue826]

Yeah we do.  Because the guys who do this in the REAL world EVERY DAY are always told they are clueless, and the CAP 'Know It alls' continue to lead the way.   



The Troll

[manfredvonrichthofen]

One more reason why outside SAR agencies dont want to have anything to do with us... We are all under equipped, and have no standardization!

Around here our Emergency management teams want to work with us.

My comment about everyone having a GPS was for Eclipse, he acts like everyone on a GT should have a GPS.

[Rescue826]

I do agree with him about the Team Concept  vs individuals.  I have been preaching that for years....

The problem if you deploy as individuals, you dont know who has what equipment / capabilities.

A agree that 2 would be sufficient.




The Troll

[davidsinn]

I do agree with him about the Team Concept  vs individuals.  I have been preaching that for years....

The problem if you deploy as individuals, you dont know who has what equipment / capabilities.

A agree that 2 would be sufficient.

The Troll

That's why you're supposed to deploy as a team not as individuals.

[Rescue826]

I do agree with him about the Team Concept  vs individuals.  I have been preaching that for years....

The problem if you deploy as individuals, you dont know who has what equipment / capabilities.

A agree that 2 would be sufficient.

The Troll

That's why you're supposed to deploy as a team not as individuals.

I dont want to go off on a tangent....

Correct , but we dont train as a team, we train as individuals.  So when you get called out to go on a  mission with 4 others from your squadron, what happens if Know one has a GPS, or Radio , or DF.  each individual is qualified as a team member / leader, but we need to certify a Team.