Taking a vacation to CHS next week, going to pick up a field grade service cap while down there. Spoke with the Squadron CC and he said all their members are having to get civilian CAC cards since the squadron is relocating to be fully on USAF property now and apparently the gate guards are asking for it.
My concern then becomes one of getting onto base to purchase uniform items since I'm not a regular to the base, so I'm not going to be on their access list. I've never had a problem in the past in getting on base but that was before these changes. If nothing else I'm taking along copies of CAPR 147-1 (current 19 May 2010) and AR 215-8/AFI 34-211(I) (current 5 October 2012) to reference, but even that appears off to me.
Looking at CAPR 147-1 we see this:
Quote1. Privileges. The following privileges are accorded under the conditions specified and upon the presentation of the credentials stated:
a. Civil Air Patrol cadets and senior members are authorized to purchase at any time articles of uniform which are authorized for wear by Civil Air Patrol directives. When purchasing articles of uniform, members will be identified by the official Civil Air Patrol membership card which must be current.
But looking at AR 215-8/AFI 34-211(I) we see this:
Quote14. Servicemembers of the Civil Air Patrol in a travel status and occupying government quarters on a DOD installation.
a. For purchases other than uniforms, they will be identified with their current membership card, their travel authorization, and evidence
they are occupying government quarters on the installation.
b. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is
shown.
c. No state tax-free tobacco items.
d. No tax-free alcohol beverages.
15. Civil Air Patrol cadets.
a. Purchase of uniforms, when Civil Air Patrol membership card is shown.
b. All food and beverage sold at any AAFES food activity, if consumed on post.
Emphasis mine. Yes there is the bit there under "b" for seniors, however with it being a greater part of category 14, technically it says senior members can only purchase uniforms when in a travel status. Makes no sense....but then again it is the federal government we're talking about...
Okay.....let me give you an overview of what's going on.
Force Protection has kicked in.....and the guys responsible for implementing the DoD DBIB card program have not read those AFI's.
So....they are making everyone who needs/wants regular access to the base get one.
And it is a PITA.
So...having said that.
Here are some options.
a) Easiest.......contact the local squadron, find out if there is someone there with access to base (AD/RES/RET) make an appointment to meet at the gate....go buy your uniforms and then buy him lunch or something.
b) Get with your wing leadership....and have them coordinate a base visit. Send them all your information, CAP ID, SSAN, Driver License number DoB....and they should be able to get you on the access list.
c) Get a DBIB card.....not easy...but most similar sort of process...takes longer depending on your AOR and how they are going about it in your local area.
It sucks....but there you go. It is not that the individual bases likes or dislikes CAP....it is that the DoD directives pushing this DBIB thing is not written with CAP in mind and there is not a lot of leeway at the base level.
And yes....CAP-USAF is aware of the issue, as is the (at least in my AOR) the local base commander.
Regarding what may be purchased, the reg is poorly worded. The prior version was more clear.
If you are in a travel status and occupying government quarters, you are allowed to buy a greater selection of items than when you are simply on a day trip. Otherwise, it's pretty much uniforms and fast food.
Thanks guys, makes more sense now. Considering that I put my name in the hat for Wing Comms, I'm likely going to pursue the DBID option in case I end up having to visit the squadron again in the future should I get the job.
FWIW, that issue came up at the winter Command Council meeting, and they are supposed to be working on it. I suspect if and when we move under 1st AF, access issues will be a bit easier to resolve.
If you have a DoD stateside contractor CAC (the one marked 'Identification Card'):
You can purchase chow and sundries at the food court and the Express/Shoppette
You can buy gas at the Express pumps
You cannot purchase items at the main Exchange (never had a problem with purchasing from the concessionaires in the mall outside the entrance)
You cannot purchase military clothing (unless you have CAP ID)
You cannot shop at the Commissary
You cannot buy tax-free booze at the Class VI or tax-free tobacco.
If you're a contractor stationed overseas (card marked 'Identification and Privilege Card'):
Card will be also marked 'Unlimited Exchange', 'Commissary' and 'Overseas MWR'
Most restrictions (except military clothing) will be lifted
Note that MCSS locations at Army bases will carry mostly Army uniform items; Air Force MCSS will have Air Force uniform items. If a 'joint base' they may stock multi-service items.
Currently, DBIDS only allows access to a specific base/military installation and under certain FPCONs.
And keep in mind that Base access procedures are kinda up to the Base CC, unless/until CAP/USAF effects a service-wide change.
Quote from: Al Sayre on March 04, 2015, 12:11:31 PM
FWIW, that issue came up at the winter Command Council meeting, and they are supposed to be working on it. I suspect if and when we move under 1st AF, access issues will be a bit easier to resolve.
That would be a nice change over the way things work now.
Sean
Lt Col Corway,
Where is this information found? It's a great list.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 03:02:42 PM
If you have a DoD stateside contractor CAC (the one marked 'Identification Card'):
You can purchase chow and sundries at the food court and the Express/Shoppette
You can buy gas at the Express pumps
You cannot purchase items at the main Exchange (never had a problem with purchasing from the concessionaires in the mall outside the entrance)
You cannot purchase military clothing (unless you have CAP ID)
You cannot shop at the Commissary
You cannot buy tax-free booze at the Class VI or tax-free tobacco.
If you're a contractor stationed overseas (card marked 'Identification and Privilege Card'):
Card will be also marked 'Unlimited Exchange', 'Commissary' and 'Overseas MWR'
Most restrictions (except military clothing) will be lifted
Note that MCSS locations at Army bases will carry mostly Army uniform items; Air Force MCSS will have Air Force uniform items. If a 'joint base' they may stock multi-service items.
Currently, DBIDS only allows access to a specific base/military installation and under certain FPCONs.
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years until my job relocated to Redstone Arsenal in 2012.
Another benefit from having an overseas contractor CAC: online shopping at the Exchange store. You must already be in the DEERS (Defense Enrollment Eligibility Reporting System) before you can do so. Civilian contractors cannot purchase uniform items online, unless a military retiree.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years ...
OT Did you ever find Gilligan? 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 05, 2015, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years ...
OT Did you ever find Gilligan? 8)
He may have gotten stuck in Johnston Island... that base closed some time ago! :)
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 05, 2015, 11:58:16 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 05, 2015, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years ...
OT Did you ever find Gilligan? 8)
He may have gotten stuck in Johnston Island... that base closed some time ago! :)
Johnson did not close, it was redesignated as a Wildlife Refuge. But you can't go there since it used to house the Chemical Weapons Incinerator and even after all of the clean ups there is still some residual traces left.
Quote from: capmaj on March 04, 2015, 03:48:31 PM
And keep in mind that Base access procedures are kinda up to the Base CC, unless/until CAP/USAF effects a service-wide change.
Not necessarily correct. The installation commander ultimately has control of who enters and leaves his/her base. I have seen dependents receive life bans from an installation. They are holders of a DoD ID that should allow them on base. The decided to act a fool. They can no longer access that base.
Quote from: TheTravelingAirman on March 06, 2015, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: capmaj on March 04, 2015, 03:48:31 PM
And keep in mind that Base access procedures are kinda up to the Base CC, unless/until CAP/USAF effects a service-wide change.
Not necessarily correct. The installation commander ultimately has control of who enters and leaves his/her base. I have seen dependents receive life bans from an installation. They are holders of a DoD ID that should allow them on base. The decided to act a fool. They can no longer access that base.
Correct. Really the best way to get the access you are looking for is to try and coordinate with a local unit there to help you get on. I would recommend against waiving AFIs at the guards when they will be operating on their SSIs and the Installation Defense Plan. And I can tell you that the IDP and the 31 series will trump the regs you quoted. Just try and coordinate your visit ahead of time with the local unit.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 05, 2015, 11:58:16 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 05, 2015, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years ...
OT Did you ever find Gilligan? 8)
He may have gotten stuck in Johnston Island... that base closed some time ago! :)
I can verify for a fact. The last time I was on Johnston Island, that he was not there when I left. I have been all over that island and the other three hazards to navigation out there (I don't want to call them islands, because they are so small).
Johnston Atoll is so small, it's like a big aircraft carrier...but with a lot less people.
Quote from: SARDOC on March 10, 2015, 06:47:59 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 05, 2015, 11:58:16 AM
Quote from: Private Investigator on March 05, 2015, 08:24:12 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 04, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
This is from personal experience... I was stationed overseas at Kwajalein Atoll for three years ...
OT Did you ever find Gilligan? 8)
He may have gotten stuck in Johnston Island... that base closed some time ago! :)
I can verify for a fact. The last time I was on Johnston Island, that he was not there when I left. I have been all over that island and the other three hazards to navigation out there (I don't want to call them islands, because they are so small).
Johnston Atoll is so small, it's like a big aircraft carrier...but with a lot less people.
No, the hazard to navigation went away when the Coast Guard knocked down the LORAN tower.
And for us aircrews who flew into the place, twice a week, there were two things you could count on.
Being escorted to our parking place by HUMMV's with .50cal Machine Guns and the "free" ice cream in the pilot's lounge.
After reading all this, it makes me very glad to be a USAF BRAT and just walk on base and shop.
V/r
C/SSgt Aidan F.
We have had base access issues for our squadron as well. It has been very up and down over the years and it can greatly affect our membership as well. Because of this issue, we moved our meetings offbase completely for part of 2014. Our access has improved currently as an active duty USAF / CAP senior member also works in Security Forces for the base. He showed the guards the regs that allow us on base with our CAP ID and a driver's license. It's working most of the time, but some members still have trouble getting on base for meetings. We are a composite squadron, so we have our CAP van out at the front gate (usually with an active/retired military member as the driver) to bring on base the cadets or any members needing access. However, with the variety of our membership and the variable base access, we have gone to a permanent rotating meeting schedule (2 weeks on base and 2 weeks offbase) for our meetings. It's a new schedule...still TBD on it's success... :-[
Quote from: Mela_007 on April 07, 2015, 09:45:19 PM
We have had base access issues for our squadron as well. It has been very up and down over the years and it can greatly affect our membership as well. Because of this issue, we moved our meetings offbase completely for part of 2014. Our access has improved currently as an active duty USAF / CAP senior member also works in Security Forces for the base. He showed the guards the regs that allow us on base with our CAP ID and a driver's license. It's working most of the time, but some members still have trouble getting on base for meetings. We are a composite squadron, so we have our CAP van out at the front gate (usually with an active/retired military member as the driver) to bring on base the cadets or any members needing access. However, with the variety of our membership and the variable base access, we have gone to a permanent rotating meeting schedule (2 weeks on base and 2 weeks offbase) for our meetings. It's a new schedule...still TBD on it's success... :-[
And what reg is this? The IDP or something else? I can tell you that if your access is not granted per the Wing CC and put into the IDP you will continue to have problems. Alot of base access problems are that units do not take the time to research what is needed to gain access and work with the system. They feel that since an AAFES reg and the one 10 series obligates and entitlements the org to base access when there is far more to it than that.
Working with the access folks will go leaps and bounds in making it easier within the first year at Davis-Monthan AFB, CAP went from having to jump through hoops to get on to now just getting a pass.
Every AFB is supposed to have an AF Officer designated to liaison with CAP. He or She should be contacted regarding these issues. Your Wing HQ should know how to contact him.
Which may or may not be the case. Sometimes you have to do the leg work to get things done.
Quote from: MSG Mac on April 07, 2015, 10:23:09 PM
Every AFB is supposed to have an AF Officer designated to liaison with CAP. He or She should be contacted regarding these issues. Your Wing HQ should know how to contact him.
Reg cite please?
So, to ask a question that's probably been answered, but where does it say you have access to the base with a DL and a CAP ID?
"Looking at CAPR 147-1 we see this:
-1. Privileges. The following privileges are accorded under the conditions specified and upon the presentation of the credentials stated:
--a. Civil Air Patrol cadets and senior members are authorized to purchase at any time articles of uniform which are authorized for wear by Civil Air Patrol directives. When --purchasing articles of uniform, members will be identified by the official Civil Air Patrol membership card which must be current."
This says you can purchase uniforms from AAFES. Not access a base. Furthermore, it is a CAPR, not an AFI/AFR/AFMAN/AFwhatever. No sway over USAF operations whatsoever.
"He showed the guards the regs that allow us on base with our CAP ID and a driver's license."
What are the regs? And as stated earlier, if the Installation Commander does not say you may enter, no amount of arguing will get you on.
Well, it may. In handcuffs, if you're really persistent.
"Every AFB is supposed to have an AF Officer designated to liaison with CAP. He or She should be contacted regarding these issues. Your Wing HQ should know how to contact him."
MSG Mac, AFI 10-2701, Para 3.2.3. "Installation commanders will appoint a field grade officer to assist the CAP USAF Liaison Region personnel and to act as a liaison with CAP units conducting activities on the installation. (T-3). Installation commanders will provide the designee's name, rank, office symbol and telephone number to CAP-USAF Liaison Region Commander and will update this information annually or when installation liaison turnover occurs. (T-3). When providing short-term support to CAP units, installation commanders may also designate a project officer to work with the CAP unit. Installation commanders will contact CAP-USAF liaison personnel directly to coordinate matters relating to CAP (T-3).
However, good luck getting it to happen. Our Wg Command Chief came out to see the squadron, was unimpressed, and asked us to make an effort to recruit before he tasked people and resources to aid a 'squadron' of 8. With our high ops tempo, I kinda agree. Didn't even make it to the Wg commander.
There are ways to get access to installation, the biggest thing I have seen is the whining about being denied or turned away because they were ill prepared or didn't talk to the right people. At DM I knew who to talk to about it and it made things smoother for us in the long run. To expect base access because of being CAP isn't going to fly with most people on the yard and I can guarantee you will be laughed at by the defender working the gate with you try to tout something that they have not heard of or doesn't apply to entry.
Every base has an installation access plan that says who may come and go on the yard and that is the bible for the folks guarding the gates, your not in there you find a sponsor. If your questionable you find a sponsor. There will be hardly any if',s ands or buts about it if you don't meet the criteria.
One of the first things I did when I took command was find out who the installation liaison was for DM. Found out one wasn't appointed, and brought AFI 10-2701 para 3.2.3 up through MY chain of command to our region ADO, not very long later I was introduced to the base liaison and quickly invited him to 1) a meeting and 2) a Mitchell presentation. I've just done the same with the new liaison that was just assigned (hopefully the Mitchell presentation will be soon, we've got 2 C/CMSgts within spitting distance).
Sorry I did not specify the "reg" that I mentioned yesterday (it was buried in an email). It's not a CAP reg, but a specific base rule/reg (IAW Keesler AFB SOI 31-10). The CAP member who works on base as active USAF in security forces, made copies of this directive showing it to all gate guards and leaving a copy at each gate. That doesn't mean that we don't still have some guards who haven't heard, but it's better than it was.
Understandably, it is each base's rules we have to follow...this is just what is helping us.
I'm throwing the bs flag on that. That reg is required equipment and reading.
The SF member who is leaving a copy on base is overstepping his bounds... if the base still says you need a DBIDS card, you need a DBIDS card
Quote from: J2H on April 19, 2015, 01:00:12 AM
The SF member who is leaving a copy on base is overstepping his bounds... if the base still says you need a DBIDS card, you need a DBIDS card
True, but the SFG commander isn't going to sign off on an OI that contradicts the base commander's rule.
... well, ideally, that is.
Outside of one agency there is no such thing as an SFG in the AF. Plus those base plans are signed by the Wg/CC not the Sq/CC.
Quote from: abdsp51 on April 19, 2015, 01:59:11 AM
Outside of one agency there is no such thing as an SFG in the AF. Plus those base plans are signed by the Wg/CC not the Sq/CC.
Whoops. I forgot SFG's are specific to missile bases.
Change SFG to SFS, my point remains.