Previous and Future CAP Uniforms

[Eclipse]

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html

More evidence that CAP will never see the ABU.  No one but the Marines seem to be happy with their field uniforms,
change is in the air, again.

[Persona non grata]

We need to consider the cost of the ABU. Pretty expensive for the average cadet or SM to dish out.  I don't like the blue BDU because it tends to fade and have a more of an uneven worn look among the troops.  I would recommend going back to an OD scheme type BDU.  We wont look out of place carrying the surplus filed gear that most GT folks carry.  We could even say its part of our heritage because we wore that color for years.  No other branches are using it so it would be very distinctive for us.  Keep the ultra blue stuff or switch to dark navy. Whatever works.  It would put all of us in the same field uniform.  We should have  at least a test and evaluation program that utilizes members that live in various climates and work in diffrent mission  settings.

just by two cents......now back to the real mission

[davidsinn]

We need to consider the cost of the ABU. Pretty expensive for the average cadet or SM to dish out.  I don't like the blue BDU because it tends to fade and have a more of an uneven worn look among the troops.  I would recommend going back to an OD scheme type BDU.  We wont look out of place carrying the surplus filed gear that most GT folks carry.  We could even say its part of our heritage because we wore that color for years.  No other branches are using it so it would be very distinctive for us.  Keep the ultra blue stuff or switch to dark navy. Whatever works.  It would put all of us in the same field uniform.  We should have  at least a test and evaluation program that utilizes members that live in various climates and work in diffrent mission  settings.

just by two cents......now back to the real mission

I like that idea. If you get a quality BBDU it won't fade bad. I wear Propper and they hold color well.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We already know that no one except for the Marines like their uniforms. Even DOD hates the uniforms, they want everyone in one utility uniform again. I hated the ACU pattern, the layout of the pockets is awesome and the feel of the fabric is sweet too. Digital patterns are just ugly and they don't do the job they are intended to. We are more likely to see everyone going into the multicam, but until that time we just have to grin and bear that we get. I don't like the ABU, but for what it's I would go to it tomorrow because it is our parent branches uniform.

Why do so many of you want to separate CAP from USAF even more by leaving their uniform scheme? If we go into the pickle suit again, no one will associate us with USAF, almost everyone sees the pickle as an old Army uniform, having nothing to do with USAF.

[JoeTomasone]

My one gripe with the ABU plan is that I don't think CAP needs two different colors of tapes, badges and grade.  Particularly if it must remain distinctive.  I would keep the white on ultramarine blue...

That would look like this; personally, I kinda like it!  In fact, I like it better than the white on tiger-pattern.

[arBar]

Seems to me that people confuse the AF with the Army becuase the ABU is so close to the ACU.  The ABUs are still new enough that the AF doesn't have a distinctive image in the public eye.  Personally I don't care.  I'll wear pink if that's what is decided by NHQ.  Then at least people would know who we are!

Personally I'm favorable to the idea of a CAP distinctive uniform, but that's just me.  And no I don't want pink.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

And no I don't want pink.

Oh good for a second I was sweating. A CAP distinctive uniform wouldn't be tooooo bad, I just don't want it to be the BBDU, nor do I want us to look like just a club of people that hang out next to an airplane. We have a professional image being in a military style image. Some of you don't think so, but that really does go a long ways with most of our customers. Sure some of them don't like it, but most do. Most areas like our image and like how we do things and feel reassured by what we do and how we do it and how professional we look while doing it. If they didn't, they wouldn't ask for us to help. Recently we were asked here to help on something, we had to turn it down because of the PC act, but we were still asked to come help and when we told them about the PC act, we also told them that some of us would still come out to help in civvies. When we told them that they said never mind. Like it or not, our military image and lineage helps our organization.

[JoeTomasone]

I've never really voiced my opinion on this, but quite frankly, I think that wearing the USAF-style uniform provides two intangible and vital benefits:   It fosters the idea that we are a part of the USAF team (which we are) for both our personnel AND for AD personnel, and it also conveys to the public/served agencies/other Emergency-oriented groups that we do have a legitimate and recognized role in the USAF/ES community.       

As they say, "clothes make the man", and it is entirely appropriate that we dress for our mission - not just in practical terms, but in terms of outside perception as well.       

Why does a security guard dress like a policeman?   To convey the idea that he has a similar role and authority (within the constraints of his job and the law, of course).    I sincerely doubt that a security guard would get the same respect and reaction from a member of the public if he was dressed in a business suit, or jeans and a t-shirt, or even in (just to make the direct comparison) BDUs.    It would be confusing to all who observed it.    Your appearance and other visual cues set the expectations of those you encounter from a psychological perspective.     

In that regard, then, adopting the uniform of your parent organization is certainly appropriate; as is the desire of the parent organization to ensure that there is a clearly defined line (so members of one are not confused with members of the other) while conveying a sense of pride and trust in their Auxiliary.

For these reasons, I am not in favor of switching all members to a completely different uniform; be it tan or OD, or whatever.    While I understand the nature of the arguments that favor this approach, I cannot concur.     

[Persona non grata]

In my 19 years of being in CAP no person has ever associated me with being part of the AF while wearing woodland with smurf patches.  I always got from people thinking I was in the ANG or ARMY.  On many occasion  at MacDill AFB I had several airman and navy types ask me what country I was from(thank God Tony having us put US flags on) .   I am 100 percent for the ABU if the cost factor was not an issue.They sizing for the ABU is much more diffrent THAN that the BDU and will be difficult for the growing cadet .   We most definitely need to part of the USAF TEAM if they want us?.  Our uniforms makes us look like we have an identify crisis.  The AF complains about us being distinctive to tell us apart from those that raise theire right hand. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Just so you know, I did raise my right hand when I gave my application, just as everyone should. There is an oath you know.

[arBar]

I hate it when this thing times out.  I had such a nice reply all ready then... anyway...

Personally I'm about the mission, so whether I'm in a military uniform or civies with a white armband, I will accept whatever.

But it seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to 4 possible options:
1. Using all military uniforms
2. Using all CAP distinctive uniforms
3. Using military uniforms (cadets) and distinctive uniforms (Seniors)
4. Leaving things the way they are

#1 is out of our control and unlikely (although I think it makes the most sense).  Any choice, however, will not make everyone happy.  Personally I favor #2, but would find #3 reasonable.  Leaving things the way they are, we'll still be having this discussion 10 years from now.

[a2capt]

Edit->Select All, Edit->Copy.. or (Command/CTRL-A, Command/CTRL-C) before pressing submit.

..and I've gotten timeouts from this thing in as little as a couple minutes while drafting a three line quick reply.

But also, interesting is that I never loose text, it says it timed out but the text is still in the window. I just press it again and it posts.  None the less, like the adage from the early to mid 80's, Save before you Print. Copy before you Post.

[NCRblues]

I hate it when this thing times out.  I had such a nice reply all ready then... anyway...

Personally I'm about the mission, so whether I'm in a military uniform or civies with a white armband, I will accept whatever.

But it seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to 4 possible options:
1. Using all military uniforms
2. Using all CAP distinctive uniforms
3. Using military uniforms (cadets) and distinctive uniforms (Seniors)
4. Leaving things the way they are

#1 is out of our control and unlikely (although I think it makes the most sense).  Any choice, however, will not make everyone happy.  Personally I favor #2, but would find #3 reasonable.  Leaving things the way they are, we'll still be having this discussion 10 years from now.

Most of cap does not have these "discussions". We seem to argue ten fold on captalk about uniforms but in general most cap members wear what they can, when they can.... /shrug

If you move away from military uniforms, you will lose a lot of members. If you move to all military, again, lose lots....its a lose lose....keep it the way it is, because lets be frank here..... its not going to change, as much as some of you want it to..... it wont. We will have military style and corporate....done and done....

[cap235629]

As it turns out, just last week I was speaking with the CAP-USAF commander on this very issue.  I was reminding him that BDU availability and pricing were becoming significant issues for the CP, and seeking his insight as to when the ABU might be released for CAP.

He told me that the issue is at the Air Staff level; that the USAF is committed to making the ABU available to CAP, and that the sole issue was ensuring that the USAF needs are fully supplied before making the ABU available for CAP use.

He indicated that he would ping it up through the chain to see if there had been any changes.


Ned Lee

ACU= Airman Combat Uniform.   I guess CAP's mission could be changed from "Serving Communities" to "Invading Communities" :angel:

This really is time now to seriously considering all CAP "adult members" into a distinctive CAP utility uniform.  The Blue BDU's and flight coveralls seem to fit the bill for this.  As far as the cadets surely they like to play army that's why they joined CAP, BUT again uniform size wise that may be an issue as far as getting it through DOD channels, since utility uniforms are not issued to CAP cadets anyways.

With the upcoming DOD budget constraints I don't see AF looking at CAP uniforms as a priority item anyways  :clap:.   My vote is to keep those BDU's for at least another 5 years and get the senior members out of anything resembling any military service combat wear, to ensure they are very easily identified as "non combatants" at all time.  That's why we are CIVIL Air Patrol :angel: :angel: :angel:
RM   

ABU= Airman Battle Uniform
ACU=Army Combat Uniform
BDU=Battle Dress Uniform
BBDU= BLUE Battle Dress Uniform.

RM your point failed.  Also, we all know that you hate any military looking uniforms.  Join campfire or something........

[Persona non grata]

Just so you know, I did raise my right hand when I gave my application, just as everyone should. There is an oath you know.

Excellent ,most CAP units dont use the oath( the flying club types ), In my statement I was referring to those that are on ACTIVE,RESERVE AND GUARD DUTY.   Not the same oath some of us on here have taken Obeying the orders of the President or Governor depending on your govt. service

[JoeTomasone]

In my 19 years of being in CAP no person has ever associated me with being part of the AF while wearing woodland with smurf patches.

That wasn't what I said. 

My point was that we are assumed to be (some sort of) team player "in the family", if you will, by wearing a similar uniform.   The distinctiveness prevents us from being assumed to be AD USAF.    To me, it walks that narrow line very well; identifying us as USAF affiliated without being USAF. 

  I always got from people thinking I was in the ANG or ARMY.  On many occasion  at MacDill AFB I had several airman and navy types ask me what country I was from(thank God Tony having us put US flags on) .

On the military installations I have been on in uniform, I have never been mistaken for USAF either -- but that's not the point.   I also never had anyone question who I was, what I was doing, etc, nor did I receive anything but professionalism and cooperation from those I interacted with.    There is significantly less "Who the heck is THIS?" when you are in a similar uniform.   

I think that what we have now is the best compromise we can make.    IIWIC, however, I would make a few changes; most notably getting rid of the golf shirt and blazer uniform combos.    I would also prefer something in between the Corporate uniform and the whites/greys for those who don't wear blues; something closer to USAF but distinctive enough to make USAF happy.    The Corporate uniform was pretty good (or, should I say, IS pretty good with the grey slides), but once you don the blue coat, it looks too much like the Service Dress.     Not sure what a good alternative to the Corporate Service Coat would be.     I'd also keep the black windbreaker for that combo.

Actually, come to think of it, I'd keep the blazer combination for Sponsor and Patron members who attend a CAP function.

On the utility side, I'd go with whatever USAF is wearing.  I don't care which it is; ABU, MultiCam, whatever, just do it and get on with it.   I'd keep the BBDU (looks kinda official) as the alternative.    However, I would make it conform to the same rules as the USAF -- sewn grade insignia only (no metal) and no boonie hat.   What USAF authorizes for the USAF version, the Corporate version gets as well. 

I'd also REMOVE the reverse US Flag patch, as that is an Army thing.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

RM your point failed.  Also, we all know that you hate any military looking uniforms.

I see RM's point on one hand about combat uniforms.

I do not agree in the slightest with his other stances on getting ALL of CAP's senior membership out of AF-type uniforms and into polos/grey-whites.

I am serious about the blue uniform designs I posted for a CSU replacement (Irish Air Corps, incidentally). With CAP-specific mods, such a design would look good and could not be confused with the AF, nor mall security as with the grey/whites.

However, I fear the nervous Nellies at NHQ are so skittish of anything of any shade of blue that they wouldn't even entertain the suggestion.

If that's the case, at least give some outergarments and accoutrements for the mall cop uniform to make it look better!


Commercially available.


USPHS pattern, available from Lighthouse.


West Point pattern


OK, Deutsche Bundeswehr, but the pattern/colour may be OK.


Commercially available standardised grey trousers

Note: this is not meant to endorse dropping the AF blue uniform!

[SARDOC]

And no I don't want pink.

Oh good for a second I was sweating. A CAP distinctive uniform wouldn't be tooooo bad, I just don't want it to be the BBDU, nor do I want us to look like just a club of people that hang out next to an airplane. We have a professional image being in a military style image. Some of you don't think so, but that really does go a long ways with most of our customers. Sure some of them don't like it, but most do. Most areas like our image and like how we do things and feel reassured by what we do and how we do it and how professional we look while doing it. If they didn't, they wouldn't ask for us to help. Recently we were asked here to help on something, we had to turn it down because of the PC act, but we were still asked to come help and when we told them about the PC act, we also told them that some of us would still come out to help in civvies. When we told them that they said never mind. Like it or not, our military image and lineage helps our organization.

I don't know why you think Blue BDU's don't present a professional image.  They are used by SAR professional's around the country.  We just don't need a Camouflage pattern for our mission.  I don't think the color pattern is going to reassure a customer as to your professionalism, it's your attitude and conduct.  Especially when you walk into a command post with SAR, Coast Guard, DMAT, MMRS and FEMA's USAR teams and they are all wearing Blue BDU style uniforms and people think the guy in the Camo from the organization they've never heard of is trying too hard to play army.

I've spent my life as a professional rescuer and I think you are thinking camo gives you the appearance of professionalism.  heck, even some of the National Guard Civil Support teams don't wear camo all the time.  It's better to actually be good...then just trying to look good

[Senty7]

^+1

[Hawk200]

We just don't need a Camouflage pattern for our mission.  I don't think the color pattern is going to reassure a customer as to your professionalism, it's your attitude and conduct.  Especially when you walk into a command post with SAR, Coast Guard, DMAT, MMRS and FEMA's USAR teams and they are all wearing Blue BDU style uniforms and people think the guy in the Camo from the organization they've never heard of is trying too hard to play army.

I've spent my life as a professional rescuer and I think you are thinking camo gives you the appearance of professionalism.  heck, even some of the National Guard Civil Support teams don't wear camo all the time.  It's better to actually be good...then just trying to look good

I don't think the problem is the camo, it's the insignia. Ours simply does not look professional. The tapes look crappy on BDUs or BBDUs. I'd be willing to be that anyone in a command post is going to accept help from someone whether they're in ACUs, ABUs, NWU, or MCUU. The Coast Guard rarely uses cammi, the blue is their standard utility.

I'm not sure what CSTs you're seeing that aren't wearing camo. It's the utility uniform, and I don't know any that have legitimate uniform variations authorized. CSTs are still military, they're not going to change it out just to work with civil authorities.