ABU: Squadron patches and rocketry patch.

[ColonelJack]

I could see that if you are a current MO/MP. Mine were earned nearly 20 years ago, and I am nowhere near current. I used to wear them all the time until that one SAREX where they were short an MO and I got the stink eye when I told them I was not current. Now they stay off, except on the aviator shirt.

Tell the nay-sayers to stuff it. Aeronautical badges, once awarded, are permanent, unless specifically revoked. Currency doesn't matter.

Hear, hear!  A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away), I was a current Senior Observer.  I am no longer qualified, and most likely won't ever be again.

That being said, the wings are on my uniforms, and there they will stay.

When I think of all the fun I had earning them, why in Heaven's name wouldn't I want to wear them?

If some other people get heartburn because they "need" an observer and I'm there but not qualified, that's their issue, not mine.

Jack

[Damron]

.

[arajca]

They confirmed prohibition of ES patches and Ranger tabs on the ABU.

Is that the Hawk Mountain Ranger or the Military Ranger tab that is prohibited or both?

Both, although I don't think the military Ranger tab was ever authorized.

[Sapper168]

They confirmed prohibition of ES patches and Ranger tabs on the ABU.

Is that the Hawk Mountain Ranger or the Military Ranger tab that is prohibited or both?

Both, although I don't think the military Ranger tab was ever authorized.

Actually the Army Ranger tab is authorized on ABU's.  The 39-1 does not list specific cap uniforms (BDU, Blues, etc.) when speaking of military badges and tabs other than 'Air Force style' uniform.  The ABU is an Air Force style uniform.  The Ranger tab, along with many, many other sister service badges and tabs, is authorized by the Air Force since 2014 for permanent wear on its uniforms.

[stillamarine]

They confirmed prohibition of ES patches and Ranger tabs on the ABU.

Is that the Hawk Mountain Ranger or the Military Ranger tab that is prohibited or both?

Both, although I don't think the military Ranger tab was ever authorized.

Actually the Army Ranger tab is authorized on ABU's.  The 39-1 does not list specific cap uniforms (BDU, Blues, etc.) when speaking of military badges and tabs other than 'Air Force style' uniform.  The ABU is an Air Force style uniform.  The Ranger tab, along with many, many other sister service badges and tabs, is authorized by the Air Force since 2014 for permanent wear on its uniforms.

I believe he was talking about CAP uniforms as the tab has never been authorized on CAP uniforms.

US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations
and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority
are present in the member's CAP personnel record.

Well there's that. But I don't think the Ranger tab counts as a badge as it is a patch. So let's talk about patches, it seems the current instruction on CAP wear of patches on ABUs says:

Left Sleeve. One full color, wing/region/national patch may be sewn to the coat on the left sleeve
½ inch below the shoulder seam reflecting the individual's current unit of assignment. Wing Commanders may
make wear of the wing patch mandatory for members of their wings.
Left Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-4, with the
exception of the Emergency Services patches, Honor Guard Shield (attachment 8-4) and Ranger tabs, may be sewn
to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the left breast pocket between left and right edges and bottom of flap
and pocket of ABU shirt. One Service Badge shown in Attachment A6-1, may be worn in this position with the
exception of the National Staff Badge which is worn on the right pocket.
Right Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the
exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, the Model Rocketry Patch, or Unit/Organizational
Patch may be sewn to the shirt centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket between left and right edges
and bottom of flap and pocket of ABU shirt. The National Staff Badge shown in attachment A6-1 is also authorized
to be worn in this position.

[LSThiker]

But I don't think the Ranger tab counts as a badge as it is a patch.

Strictly speaking, it is neither a badge or a patch.  Rather it is a tab. 

However, AFI 36-2903 lists it as a badge:

Chapter 10:

If earned and awarded, tabs such as the  Army Ranger tab will be worn on the upper crest of the sleeve and may not interfere with wear of enlisted rank insignia.

5.1.2.2.
Badges.   The   total   number   of   badges   worn   will   not   exceed   four.   The commander's insignia does not count as one of the four badges.  Badges will have a solid background,  and  will  have  the  edges  folded  and  sewn  down  with  no  more  than  ¼  inch space between embroidered emblem and badge edge. With  the exception of tabs worn on the  crest  of  the  upper  sleeve  (i.e.    Army  Ranger  tab)  badges  will  have  squared  edges.

[Shuman 14]

I believe he was talking about CAP uniforms as the tab has never been authorized on CAP uniforms. 

Yes I was, which is why I asked. I've seen plenty of Ranger Tabs, one Special Forces Tab, and zero (as of yet) Sapper Tabs on USAF personnel, so I wanted to know if CAP was following USAF practice of allowing the Tabs to be worn on the ABU.

[Garibaldi]

I believe he was talking about CAP uniforms as the tab has never been authorized on CAP uniforms. 

Yes I was, which is why I asked. I've seen plenty of Ranger Tabs, one Special Forces Tab, and zero (as of yet) Sapper Tabs on USAF personnel, so I wanted to know if CAP was following USAF practice of allowing the Tabs to be worn on the ABU.

There was a gent in Arkansas who wore his Ranger tab on his BDUs. I think I referenced it in another thread a few years ago.

[stillamarine]

But I don't think the Ranger tab counts as a badge as it is a patch.

Strictly speaking, it is neither a badge or a patch.  Rather it is a tab. 

However, AFI 36-2903 lists it as a badge:

Chapter 10:

If earned and awarded, tabs such as the  Army Ranger tab will be worn on the upper crest of the sleeve and may not interfere with wear of enlisted rank insignia.

5.1.2.2.
Badges.   The   total   number   of   badges   worn   will   not   exceed   four.   The commander's insignia does not count as one of the four badges.  Badges will have a solid background,  and  will  have  the  edges  folded  and  sewn  down  with  no  more  than  ¼  inch space between embroidered emblem and badge edge. With  the exception of tabs worn on the  crest  of  the  upper  sleeve  (i.e.    Army  Ranger  tab)  badges  will  have  squared  edges.

So I think that would make them ok maybe on BDUs, but there's no guidance for the ABUs. Sounds like a question for NHQ

[Sapper168]

I did all the research and pouring over 3 different uniform manuals cross checking and everything to ensure proper placement of an Army skill tab.  And technically the tab is a army group 4 skill badge.

The guidance for placement of an Army tab on the ABU or any air force style uniform is in the AFI-36-2903 which points to it being worn on the uniform in the same manner as on the issuing branches equivalent uniform. For an army tab you would look in AR670-1.   So in that regulation Tab placement is an embroidered cloth army ranger tab worn on the crest of the left sleeve of the ABU(ACU equivalent), An enamel full color tab badge would be worn below the ribbons on the left side of the service dress and blue service uniforms (ASU class A and B equivalent). 

In my case the tab says Sapper. 

[LSThiker]

I did all the research and pouring over 3 different uniform manuals cross checking and everything to ensure proper placement of an Army skill tab.  And technically the tab is a army group 4 skill badge.

Almost.  The Special Skill Tab Metal Replica is a group 4 skill badge, but the embroidered tab is classified as a tab:

For purposes of classification and wear policy, the Sapper, Ranger, and Special Forces tab metal replicas are classified as group 4 special skill badges.

The reason for this separation is due to the fact that not all tabs have a metal replica.  For example, Airborne, Honor Guard, ARNG Honor Guard, Combined Division, Mountain tabs.  The Airborne and Mountain tabs are part of the SSI, while the honor guard and ARNG honor guard are position identifiers and are directly sewn onto the uniform.

Therefore, the TIOH and DoA have taken careful distinction between the tab and the metal replica.  Semantics I know.

Anyway, not really important I guess. 

[GroundHawg]

I believe he was talking about CAP uniforms as the tab has never been authorized on CAP uniforms. 

Yes I was, which is why I asked. I've seen plenty of Ranger Tabs, one Special Forces Tab, and zero (as of yet) Sapper Tabs on USAF personnel, so I wanted to know if CAP was following USAF practice of allowing the Tabs to be worn on the ABU.

I was in a Red Horse unit where there were many Sapper Tabs (and a two Rangers) and almost everyone had jump wings but we were the exception for sure.

[abdsp51]

I believe he was talking about CAP uniforms as the tab has never been authorized on CAP uniforms. 

Yes I was, which is why I asked. I've seen plenty of Ranger Tabs, one Special Forces Tab, and zero (as of yet) Sapper Tabs on USAF personnel, so I wanted to know if CAP was following USAF practice of allowing the Tabs to be worn on the ABU.

I was in a Red Horse unit where there were many Sapper Tabs (and a two Rangers) and almost everyone had jump wings but we were the exception for sure.

Hardly. There is the 820th SFG out of Moody and the various CRGs as well.  Not to mention the 60th SFS has produced 2 Rangers from within it's ranks. 

Though you may have seen plenty because that's were alot of Army folks went or RH was willing to shell out the money for people to attend the schools.

[Meridius]

While at NESA, I received a reply from National about the latest update.  They confirmed prohibition of ES patches and Ranger tabs on the ABU.  Errors and omissions accidentally excluded squadron patches and the rocketry patch, both are authorized.   They didn't specify the placement of the squadron patch.  Awaiting response on that item.

Can you provide this?  The instructions are ambiguous.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Instructions are not ambiguous.

Until NHQ publishes a clarification, you cannot wear unit patch or rocket badge. Hearing from another member that someone in NHQ told him it was a mistake does serve the purpose of making others hope. It is not an authorization to wear those things.

It does not matter if NHQ forgot to include them, someone else tore up the message, a stray pulse hit the message scrambling it, whatever.

Those of us waiting for the unit patch authorization - and I am one of those waiting - cannot put it on until NHQ says we can.

[Damron]

Instructions are not ambiguous.

Until NHQ publishes a clarification, you cannot wear unit patch or rocket badge. Hearing from another member that someone in NHQ told him it was a mistake does serve the purpose of making others hope. It is not an authorization to wear those things.

It does not matter if NHQ forgot to include them, someone else tore up the message, a stray pulse hit the message scrambling it, whatever.

Those of us waiting for the unit patch authorization - and I am one of those waiting - cannot put it on until NHQ says we can.

Have you seen the July 20 update?

[Damron]

I have attached the July 20 update that addresses unit patches and rocket patches.   


Here is the text from an email sent by Susan P. Parker, HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions"

"Attached is updated guidance that might answer some of these questions.  ES and Ranger tabs are not worn on the ABUs.  The Honor Guard shield in attachment A8-4 is worn on the white ascot and is not authorized on ABUs.  The Model Rocketry patch and squadron patches are authorized.

If you have any other questions please let me know."

[kwe1009]

I have attached the July 20 update that addresses unit patches and rocket patches.   


Here is the text from an email sent by Susan P. Parker, HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions"

"Attached is updated guidance that might answer some of these questions.  ES and Ranger tabs are not worn on the ABUs.  The Honor Guard shield in attachment A8-4 is worn on the white ascot and is not authorized on ABUs.  The Model Rocketry patch and squadron patches are authorized.

If you have any other questions please let me know."

Unfortunately the rest of us can't go off of an email that only you received.  The current published guidance (20 July) states: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, the Model Rocketry Patch, or Unit/Organizational Patch may be sewn"

Unit/Organizational patches are not even listed in the referenced attachments so are not authorized.

I understand that this may not have been the intent but there has been no public clarification.  I think what NHQ meant to say was: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color Model Rocketry Patch, Unit/Organizational Patch, or one of the patches authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn"

[Damron]

I have attached the July 20 update that addresses unit patches and rocket patches.   


Here is the text from an email sent by Susan P. Parker, HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions"

"Attached is updated guidance that might answer some of these questions.  ES and Ranger tabs are not worn on the ABUs.  The Honor Guard shield in attachment A8-4 is worn on the white ascot and is not authorized on ABUs.  The Model Rocketry patch and squadron patches are authorized.

If you have any other questions please let me know."

Unfortunately the rest of us can't go off of an email that only you received.  The current published guidance (20 July) states: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, the Model Rocketry Patch, or Unit/Organizational Patch may be sewn"

Unit/Organizational patches are not even listed in the referenced attachments so are not authorized.

I understand that this may not have been the intent but there has been no public clarification.  I think what NHQ meant to say was: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color Model Rocketry Patch, Unit/Organizational Patch, or one of the patches authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn"

I am not encouraging anybody to act based on CapTalk posts, including mine. I thought I would share emerging information from NHQ that is likely to make its way into 39-1. 

Instead of seeking definitive guidance on CapTalk, I contacted NHQ for clarification.  I will apply the information provided by NHQ within my unit.

[kwe1009]

I have attached the July 20 update that addresses unit patches and rocket patches.   


Here is the text from an email sent by Susan P. Parker, HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions"

"Attached is updated guidance that might answer some of these questions.  ES and Ranger tabs are not worn on the ABUs.  The Honor Guard shield in attachment A8-4 is worn on the white ascot and is not authorized on ABUs.  The Model Rocketry patch and squadron patches are authorized.

If you have any other questions please let me know."

Unfortunately the rest of us can't go off of an email that only you received.  The current published guidance (20 July) states: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color patch authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, the Model Rocketry Patch, or Unit/Organizational Patch may be sewn"

Unit/Organizational patches are not even listed in the referenced attachments so are not authorized.

I understand that this may not have been the intent but there has been no public clarification.  I think what NHQ meant to say was: "Right Breast Pocket. One full color Model Rocketry Patch, Unit/Organizational Patch, or one of the patches authorized in Attachment 8-1 through 8-3, with the exception of the Emergency Services patches and Ranger tabs, may be sewn"

I am not encouraging anybody to act based on CapTalk posts, including mine. I thought I would share emerging information from NHQ that is likely to make its way into 39-1. 

Instead of seeking definitive guidance on CapTalk, I contacted NHQ for clarification.  I will apply the information provided by NHQ within my unit.

Something like this really needs to be either sent to everyone from NHQ or at least added to the CAP Knowledgebase.  Very simple things that seem to always get missed for some reason by NHQ.