Inappropriate CAP Cadet Survey

[PHall]

How about you guys taking a 24 hour break on posting about this thread.
Most of you seem to be violating Internet Rule #1: Never post while you're mad.

[PA Guy]

abdsp51,

"But wait you're not a parent so you don't get it". 

This was a cheap shot and yes I am a parent.

[PA Guy]

How about you guys taking a 24 hour break on posting about this thread.
Most of you seem to be violating Internet Rule #1: Never post while you're mad.

It needs to be locked.

[Майор Хаткевич]

How about you guys taking a 24 hour break on posting about this thread.
Most of you seem to be violating Internet Rule #1: Never post while you're mad.

It needs to be locked.

But then admins will be accused of supporting the agenda and ignoring things. Despite PHalls assumption, I'm not angry. I'd love to discuss this, hell I even agree with the concerns to an extent, which is why I suggested going to NHQ for a policy change.

[LSThiker]

Let's think about this for a second. The only reason CAP would need this information is to develop some kind of policy and accommodation for these cadets.

Certainly this information will help them develop policy and accommodations when the time comes to create those.  However, taking one step back, this information is useful to decide whether or not to pursue creating general policy or wait until further federal guidance is issued and leave this question as a case-by-case.

What would those be? Exceptions to the uniform policy? Overnight accommodations? Any of these would require parental consent.

I do not know what those exceptions would be.  Frankly I do not think any one really knows as this is relatively new to our country.  Unfortunately, there are nearly 56 different rules as to what defines transgender. 

The military is lifting its ban on transgender personnel in May 2016 (http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/pentagon/2015/07/13/pentagon-readying-plan-to-lift-transgender-ban/30092973/ and http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/25/military-transgender-ban-set-end-next-may/32345385/).  CAP and the USAF are probably trying to prepare for this date.   

The Office of Personnel Management has accepted that transgender starts when a person makes the decision to identify as something other than their biological sex.  They are not required to pursue hormone replacement therapy (HRT), sex reassignment surgery, or other steps to be officially considered transgender:

Some individuals, however, will not pursue some (or any) forms of medical treatment because of their age, medical condition, lack of funds, or other personal circumstances, or because they may not feel the treatment is necessary for their well-being. Managers and supervisors should be aware that not all transgender individuals will follow the same pattern, but they all are entitled to the same consideration as they undertake the transition steps deemed appropriate for them, and should all be treated with dignity and respect.

The DOL has essentially the same guidance for the consideration of transgender:

Some may not undergo medical treatment for various personal, financial, or medical reasons, but may modify their gender expression – their dress, mannerisms, and so forth -- to be consistent with their gender identity.

As a  look at states:  Some states require a sex reassignment surgery before it will officially change your sex, while others do not, whiles will not absolutely change it.  States such as California, Washington, Utah, Iowa, Minnesota, New York do not require an SRS.  Texas, Georgia, Florida, Arkansas requires an SRS.  States such as Idaho, Oklahoma, Kansas, Ohio, and Tennessee will not alter the gender. 

So, why not involve the parents to begin with?

As far as I know, there has been no actual discussion on how to proceed with this.  At least not publicly.  You do not necessarily need to bring in parents opinions when you are just trying to collect the data.  Even then, parents may not get a voice if the USAF and the federal government states that we must recognize transgender individuals.  Or the only say they may get is simply the withdraw of their child from the program.  There are times when people do not always get a say, especially when it comes to the rights of individuals.

If this is a sensitive (and controversial) issue that cannot be resolved at home, then there's not much that CAP can or should do. It's not our place.

Agreed.  But asking a person how they self-identify is not getting involved in the home.

And that's why we should involve the parents in these types of discussions.

This is not a discussion.  It was just a simple question asking what the Gender of a person is.  Asking a gender of person and including three options is no more a discussion on transgender issues than asking a gender and including only two options is a discussion on feminism.  It was a simple question with no underlying agenda, discussion, or whatever. 

[LSThiker]

Despite PHalls assumption, I'm not angry.

Not angry either.  I deal with these types of situations quite often as a few of my friends and colleagues are transgender.

[abdsp51]

abdsp51,

"But wait you're not a parent so you don't get it". 

This was a cheap shot and yes I am a parent.

That was not directed at you. 

[Ned]

I'm home for about 8 hours before my next flight, so let me try to hit a few things.

We sent the survey links to about 20,000 cadets and about 10,000 parents.  Which was every parent for which we had a working email address.  The response has been terrific.  I'm not an expert in survey responses, but so far we have over 4,000 cadet responses and over 2,000 parent responses.  In looking through the "open-ended question" responses on the parental surveys, they read like a commercial for CAP.  A lot of praise for what our program does for their children.  I didn't see a single negative response from a parent, but I can't claim to have read every one.  Yet.

We will probably cut of responses on Friday, and turn the data over for analysis.

So far, the only complaint we have received in the shop is from Spam.  Curt LaFond has been playing phone tag with him, but I'm confident that they will speak soon to address mutual concerns.

I suppose it bears repeating that that the survey is 100% about continuing the CEAP funding.  There is absolutely no other agenda or purpose.  It appears that many of you might have designed the survey instrument differently; adding to it or deleting questions that you feel are unnecessary.  I'm sure reasonable minds could well differ on exactly how to construct the survey instrument.  But it was designed by the Ph.D -level scientists at RAND which has an acknowledged reputation in this particular area.  If they felt that certain data was necessary for analysis to support continued funding, given their long experience in catering to AF needs, I'm inclined to think they know what they are doing.

I also wanted to address some concerns raised about whether sending a bulk email to 30,000 cadets and parents is somehow violative of our own CPP.  It's not.  I'm fairly sure I wrote the cited part of the 52-10 that talks about it.  (Paragraph 2-7, excerpted above.)  Bulk emails ("spam," if you will) are exactly what we were talking about when we said "email traffic distributed to two or more members."

Mostly because bulk emails present little or no risk of isolation and grooming.

Finally, the transgender discussion deserves its own thread.  (I think we have indeed discussed it elsewhere, but I have to get up in six hours to catch a flight and I'm being too lazy to search.)  It should have its own thread for two reasons:  One, it's important that we get it right after an open and transparent process before we make any changes to existing policies and regulations.  And two, because it really has nothing to do with the CEAP program (except as it may discover that TG troops are underserved by encampment.)

Thanks for a good discussion.  I'll try to watch it during dull parts of meetings over the next couple of days.

[jeders]

abdsp51,

"But wait you're not a parent so you don't get it". 

This was a cheap shot and yes I am a parent.

That was not directed at you.

It doesn't matter who it's directed at, it's a cheap shot and you should be ashamed. Being a parent doesn't suddenly give you any insight that you didn't have before. As a parent of a cadet that probably received this survey (she only checks email when I tell her she needs to), I find absolutely nothing inappropriate about anything in it.

Also, as a parent, a member, and a commander I find it highly disheartening that someone such as yourself who has devoted so much to CAP would disparage and dismiss another dedicated and talented member just because he has not yet had children.

Ned, thank you for confirming what I thought, that the number of parents who find the gender identity question inappropriate is extremely low; in other words, it's really not a problem.

[Storm Chaser]

If? It already came to that. CAP asked questions in a survey that some parents found objectionable. And, whether you agree with them or not, that's their parental right.

We'll deal with the accommodations if and when it comes to that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Sir, would you kindly point out which words I put in your mouth? Perhaps if you quoted the entire conversation and not just one post we could see who said what. But even on this single post I just don't see it.

Find anything you want objectionable, but I sincerely doubt you'd say that to a transgender persons face, so I'll reserve my opinion on "overblown" until it somehow miraculously affects those with concerns.

Did I say I found anything objectionable? Now, who's putting words in other people's mouth? I said "some parents found [it] objectionable." Not the same thing. My statement was a fact, as evidenced by this thread, not an opinion. But here we do agree. Yours is just an opinion, an "overblown" one, if I may add.

And what's with the statement regarding telling a transgender person something to their face? That doesn't seem like the type of respectful response expected from a CAP officer. I would treat a transgender cadet just like any other cadet. Gender identity is a non-issue in CAP. They're all cadets.

To clarify, if your kid isn't trans-gendered, what's your concern here?

I could ask the same about you. If your kid isn't transgender or if you don't even have kids, then what's YOUR concern here? Two can play this game.

Captain, you're entitled to your opinion just like everyone else on this Board. We can disagree respectfully. But you must be cautious not to confuse passion and conviction with disrespect. Many have posted disagreeing opinions here with respect and that's part of having a healthy discussion. Unfortunately, I can't say the same of every post.

[CAPs1]

I don't think some parents/guardians with cadets wanted to be told what they should believe or how they need to act. More of the postings had to do with this than the survey questions (posted below). It seems like the thing to do, a cause celebre in vogue these days: get with it or do you live under a rock?

Those that had an issue raised it. Ned took note, replied politely and has tried to smooth this over. And that is much more appreciated.
However what he can assert without proof I can dismiss without as much as well.

Glad NED is loving the numbers he got back and that only complaint came from SPAM. Who, incidentally, found god or a saw the caller id and issued an apology of sort after some phone tag from NHQ. Or maybe he just really is a nice guy. 

These, folks, are the questions that will help USAF determine if CAP should receive funds. Really.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/JJD3BZ5 - cadet survey

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/JNCQ9ZW - parent survey

Perhaps the PhDs can tell Ned the implication for funding, when a cadet is asked 'his worth' or how he relates to others.
Those that have/had an issue raise it, those that don't, consider not telling people what to think just because respect doesn't exist in your world.

[abdsp51]

abdsp51,

"But wait you're not a parent so you don't get it". 

This was a cheap shot and yes I am a parent.

That was not directed at you.

It doesn't matter who it's directed at, it's a cheap shot and you should be ashamed. Being a parent doesn't suddenly give you any insight that you didn't have before. As a parent of a cadet that probably received this survey (she only checks email when I tell her she needs to), I find absolutely nothing inappropriate about anything in it.

Also, as a parent, a member, and a commander I find it highly disheartening that someone such as yourself who has devoted so much to CAP would disparage and dismiss another dedicated and talented member just because he has not yet had children.

Ned, thank you for confirming what I thought, that the number of parents who find the gender identity question inappropriate is extremely low; in other words, it's really not a problem.

First off you and I both know that there are things that come with being a parent that parents just get, you can't explain it just is.  It's the same as those who have been in combat, been (fill in the blank). 

Is the Capt talented and dedicated never said he wasn't.  But there are things that just come with being a parent that single folks do not get until they have kids.  And it is entirely different when the kids are your own. 

You're quick to call me disparaging and of accuse me of taking a cheap shot but yet when a parent is told to just get over something it's not a disparaging and a cheap shot? 

[TheSkyHornet]

I'm going to chime in here...

I was unaware of this survey, nor has it been brought to my attention; so, I am not completely aware of its contents, as I have not seen it for mysel. I assume simply asking some of my cadets about it that I could get the Intel that others are commenting on.

Anyway, while I understand the whole "gender issue" has been a sensitive topic lately, especially with the military, I don't understand how this relates to CAP aside from PT standards. I'm in the belief, as well as acceptance, that I may have cadets who have, well, I don't want to say "issues," but, perhaps, sexuality that may be outside of the norm. At the end of the day, it's not my business, and it really isn't NHQ's business.

So, I hope I'm not jumping the gun here. But from some of the comments I'm reading, I'm. It fully comfortable with some of the things it sounds like the cadets are being asked.

On the subject of "boundary concerns," as I have read, I fully understand where that may be coming from. It seems to be a common question on CAP Talk, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the survey questions didn't come from some of the posts on here, but I'm still not fully understanding what the survey's intent was/is.

As I said, perhaps I'm jumping the gun and maybe skipping some of the posts on this thread, but I'm a little confused here. Maybe in the future, surveys that cadets receive can be sent to the Cadet Programs specialists in addition to the cadets, because I'm really lost at what occurred here. I have heard nothing of it until reading the forum. 

[SarDragon]

Scroll up a couple of posts, and you'll see links to both surveys. You can continue through each survey without answering any of the Qs. I only looked at the cadet one, and didn't see anything I wouldn't have let my girls answer at cadet ages.

[Storm Chaser]

Maybe in the future, surveys that cadets receive can be sent to the Cadet Programs specialists in addition to the cadets, because I'm really lost at what occurred here. I have heard nothing of it until reading the forum.

Agreed. I'm a Group Commander and Cadet Programs Officer and, until I read this thread, I hadn't heard of this survey either.

[vorteks]

... I only looked at the cadet one, and didn't see anything I wouldn't have let my girls answer at cadet ages.

That's your prerogative as a parent, and the whole point of this thread.

[tkelley004]

Maybe in the future, surveys that cadets receive can be sent to the Cadet Programs specialists in addition to the cadets, because I'm really lost at what occurred here. I have heard nothing of it until reading the forum.

Agreed. I'm a Group Commander and Cadet Programs Officer and, until I read this thread, I hadn't heard of this survey either.

You may want to check the email address you have listed in eservices it was sent out on Sept 25th to that address. (the email is below)


Upcoming Encampment Survey


Dear Unit Commanders and Directors of Cadet Programs,



1. In a few days, we will be asking all cadets aged 13 and older and their parents to participate in a survey regarding the CAP Cadet Program, with special emphasis on the value of the encampment program. This voluntary survey, contracted by the Air Force and developed by the Rand Corporation, will help show the importance of continued funding for the Cadet Encampment Assistance Program. Through this memo, we're asking for your assistance in publicizing the survey and encouraging cadets and their parents to complete it.


2. Here are some basic facts about the survey:


Survey Title:

CAP Cadet Encampment Survey 2015


Purpose of Survey:

Identify the encampment program's short-term outcomes, use that data to justify further AF support of encampments, and generally improve the encampment experience for future years.


Invitations:

All CAP cadets aged 13 and over – whether they participated in encampment or not – and their parents will be invited to participate via an email on 5 October.


Opt-In Status:

No one is required to participate in the survey; it's completely voluntary.


Strategy:

By inviting non-encampment cadets to participate, we'll have a baseline against which to measure encampment success. (One would expect encampment graduates to report greater confidence in their leadership skills, and better awareness of STEM careers, for example, compared to non-encampment cadets.)


Survey Design:

At the Air Force's request, researchers at the Rand Corporation, one of America's most prestigious think tanks, developed the survey for CAP.


Confidentiality:

Individuals' responses to the survey will be kept confidential. CAP will share the data only in the aggregate.

Availability:

We plan to email cadets and parents invitations to the survey on 5 October, and would keep the survey open through 18 October.

Legal Compliance:

The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act regulates how organizations collect information from youth under age 13. To prevent any potential compliance issues, CAP is only surveying cadets aged 13 and older.

3. If you have any questions about this survey project, please contact us at cadets@capnhq.gov. Thank you for your continued, outstanding support of the cadets.

Best regards,

- curt

Curt LaFond
Deputy Director for Cadet Programs


 




















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[tkelley004]

I'm going to chime in here...

I was unaware of this survey, nor has it been brought to my attention; so, I am not completely aware of its contents, as I have not seen it for mysel. I assume simply asking some of my cadets about it that I could get the Intel that others are commenting on.

Anyway, while I understand the whole "gender issue" has been a sensitive topic lately, especially with the military, I don't understand how this relates to CAP aside from PT standards. I'm in the belief, as well as acceptance, that I may have cadets who have, well, I don't want to say "issues," but, perhaps, sexuality that may be outside of the norm. At the end of the day, it's not my business, and it really isn't NHQ's business.

So, I hope I'm not jumping the gun here. But from some of the comments I'm reading, I'm. It fully comfortable with some of the things it sounds like the cadets are being asked.

On the subject of "boundary concerns," as I have read, I fully understand where that may be coming from. It seems to be a common question on CAP Talk, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the survey questions didn't come from some of the posts on here, but I'm still not fully understanding what the survey's intent was/is.

As I said, perhaps I'm jumping the gun and maybe skipping some of the posts on this thread, but I'm a little confused here. Maybe in the future, surveys that cadets receive can be sent to the Cadet Programs specialists in addition to the cadets, because I'm really lost at what occurred here. I have heard nothing of it until reading the forum.

You may want to check the email address you have listed in eservices, a notification was sent on Sept 25.....

Upcoming Encampment Survey

Dear Unit Commanders and Directors of Cadet Programs,

1. In a few days, we will be asking all cadets aged 13 and older and their parents to participate in a survey regarding the CAP Cadet Program, with special emphasis on the value of the encampment program. This voluntary survey, contracted by the Air Force and developed by the Rand Corporation, will help show the importance of continued funding for the Cadet Encampment Assistance Program. Through this memo, we're asking for your assistance in publicizing the survey and encouraging cadets and their parents to complete it.
2. Here are some basic facts about the survey:

Survey Title:

CAP Cadet Encampment Survey 2015

Purpose of Survey:

Identify the encampment program's short-term outcomes, use that data to justify further AF support of encampments, and generally improve the encampment experience for future years.


Invitations:

All CAP cadets aged 13 and over – whether they participated in encampment or not – and their parents will be invited to participate via an email on 5 October.

Opt-In Status:

No one is required to participate in the survey; it's completely voluntary.

Strategy:

By inviting non-encampment cadets to participate, we'll have a baseline against which to measure encampment success. (One would expect encampment graduates to report greater confidence in their leadership skills, and better awareness of STEM careers, for example, compared to non-encampment cadets.)

Survey Design:

At the Air Force's request, researchers at the Rand Corporation, one of America's most prestigious think tanks, developed the survey for CAP.

Confidentiality:

Individuals' responses to the survey will be kept confidential. CAP will share the data only in the aggregate.

Availability:

We plan to email cadets and parents invitations to the survey on 5 October, and would keep the survey open through 18 October.

Legal Compliance:

The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act regulates how organizations collect information from youth under age 13. To prevent any potential compliance issues, CAP is only surveying cadets aged 13 and older.


3. If you have any questions about this survey project, please contact us at cadets@capnhq.gov. Thank you for your continued, outstanding support of the cadets.


Best regards,

- curt







Curt LaFond
Deputy Director for Cadet Programs


























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[TheSkyHornet]

My email in eServices is my wing email and has been since I joined CAP, as Wing automatically gives us an email upon acceptance and being added to the roster.

I received no such survey. There is a possibility it went to my CC, as, until today, she was the CDC in addition to her other duties; however, I have been acting as CDC for most of our cadet programs responsibilities in an unofficial, supervised capacity. Even though I'm a CP specialty track since June, and CDC as of today today, I was never sent any such survey by NHQ nor within my own squadron. In squadrons where there may be as many as 5 CP specialists, I would think they would all receive the same email, not just the CC and CDC.

The email you have copied and pasted above does not contain the survey other than informing the recipient that a survey will be sent out in the future. I would assume that we would still be copied in on the actual survey, as us in the CP specialty are accountable for the training, satisfaction, and well being of cadets in our units.

[jeders]

In squadrons where there may be as many as 5 CP specialists, I would think they would all receive the same email, not just the CC and CDC.

This is totally separate from the topic at hand, but why would you think that? The purpose of the email from NHQ was to notify commanders so that they could direct cadets and parents to check their email and take the survey. It was not to push the survey itself out. I'm honestly curious, why would you expect national to send a notice to every CP rated member?