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USE OF EMT's

Started by Dutchboy, July 16, 2009, 08:36:52 AM

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Dutchboy

What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

Bear Walling

First off, research your state's policy. Then I would approach the person and inform them in the nicest way possible and offer to provide information from your state's Board of EMS on this matter.

Question: What is First Aid?

Answer: The answer to this question is not as easy as it seems. "First aid" is a catch-all phrase that refers to two distinctly different medical needs.

    * Emergency first aid is exactly that - the first response to a life-threatening (or limb-threatening) medical emergency, either an illness or an injury. More advanced medical care will happen after first aid in this case. This type of first aid includes CPR, clearing an airway obstruction, responding to anaphylactic shock, splinting a broken bone, and severe bleeding control.

    * Non-emergency first aid is the treatment we initiate ourselves for minor medical needs. We may or may not seek more advanced medical care after the initial response. This includes taking over-the-counter medications for minor pain or allergies, cleaning and bandaging cuts or abrasions, and minor bleeding control. It's the kind of thing we learned from our mother's or on the internet.

AirAux

EMT's have a national registry and he/she may currently be licensed by such.  Some statesaccept that and some don't.  You may want to check current CAP requirements and see if the national registry qualifies him/her for CAP.

isuhawkeye

If they are "presenting themselves" as an EMS provider, and they are not currently certified by that state they may be breaking the law.  If they are presenting themselves as though they were a part of an active EMS service they may have the same problem.  Depending upon the state Attorney General's opinion carrying an out bag that has the star of life on it may be enough. 

EMT-83

You may be creating a problem where none exists. I'd be curious to know just what's inside the "EMT bag" that he carries. If it's basic stuff, no problem. Meds and advanced supplies are a different story. Maybe it's where he carries his lunch. Where does he carry it - in his car, or walking around the squadron?

Despite what you may think, you don't need to be certified in first aid to stop bleeding or splint a fracture. This guy might be handy to have around in an emergency. I know lots of former EMTs who are burned out, but still have their skills.

An frank discussion about his intentions is in order. From what little I know of the situation, it sounds like he's been honest about his situation. Make sure that he knows that he's on his own, and won't be covered by NHQ or anyone else if something goes wrong.

Flying Pig

I would say mind your own business unless there is more to the story your not telling us.  Exactly what is it he is doing wrong?  He he bothering anyone?  Maybe he's just a nerd who waiting for his chance to shine.  Im sure nobody here has ever been accused of that.

N Harmon

Quote from: messofficer on July 16, 2009, 08:36:52 AM
What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).

By becoming a member of your state's EMS board. Beyond that, why should you care?
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

RiverAux

Depends on whether this is a CAP-related issue or not. 

Stonewall

#8
Just because someone is an EMT and performing duties as a GTM/GTL for CAP, does not automatically mean one must forget the advanced medical skills they possess.

Same if someone is no longer current.  It doesn't mean you've forgotten all of the skills, it means you are no longer qualified.

I compare it to the fact that I was a life guard as a teenager.  I learned how to rescue someone in the water.  If I see someone having some issues in the water and needs saving, I'm not going to let them drown because I am no longer certified as a life guard through USLA.
Serving since 1987.

CadetProgramGuy

CAPR 60-3

1-21f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary provider of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be used to support such activities. The only type of medical aid that should be administered by CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable first aid deemed necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering and executed by a person qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level.

sparks

If a state licensed EMT and CAP member was conducting CAP business but was put in a position where using the EMT skills became necessary I guess that person would have to declare "I'm not CAP" to be legal. Of course saving lives trumps some regulatory limits.

Maybe this is similar to flying law enforcement personnel in aircraft who are also CAP members. It's required they declare what function they are performing before the flight to avoid any confusionin particular when they are armed.

arajca

If it's a life saving issue, the last line in the paragraph covers it. No need to declare anything. If it's a comfort issue, that's a different issue.

Flying Pig

Quote from: sparks on July 17, 2009, 01:19:30 PM
If a state licensed EMT and CAP member was conducting CAP business but was put in a position where using the EMT skills became necessary I guess that person would have to declare "I'm not CAP" to be legal. Of course saving lives trumps some regulatory limits.

Maybe this is similar to flying law enforcement personnel in aircraft who are also CAP members. It's required they declare what function they are performing before the flight to avoid any confusionin particular when they are armed.
[/b][/i]

Huh?  Where did you get that?  If I have my gun strapped to my hip, I think we can all assume Im not there in a CAP capacity.

RiverAux

That and the fact that you wouldn't be in a CAP uniform....

Flying Pig

Next time I do a CD flight Im going to show up in my CAP flight suit with my shoulder rig and just declare Im a CAP member and I should be OK then right?

RiverAux


SJFedor

#16
Quote from: messofficer on July 16, 2009, 08:36:52 AM
What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.

EMT-B's are BLS (basic life support) providers. They (we) are taught basic airway management skills, bleeding control, immobilization, etc skills. No surgical or interventional procedures, unless their service or state authorizes it. So essentially, they're not going to be able to do anything that REALLY puts CAP at a liability, like starting IVs or doing surgical crics.

I'd tell him there's not really a need to be carrying his jump bag everywhere, but other than that, if something does happen, be glad he's there. He'll be able to render more competent care as a current or former EMT than your run-of-the-mill first aid qualified member until EMS can get there.

Steve
Big City EMT-B

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Dutchboy

Quote from: SJFedor on July 19, 2009, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: messofficer on July 16, 2009, 08:36:52 AM
What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.


Just for Reference where does it state it is not illegal to provide EMT-B level care outside of being apart of a medical controlling agency?

arajca

I advise you contact your wing legal officer, if this involves CAP.

Something I have seen a SOME Good Sam laws is a provision to provide care up to your level of TRAINING, not CERTIFICATION. In theory, if you've been a paramedic, but have let your cert slip, you would still be expected to perform up to the paramedic level, taking into account the equipment/situation, if you decide to help.

wuzafuzz

Quote from: messofficer on July 20, 2009, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: SJFedor on July 19, 2009, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: messofficer on July 16, 2009, 08:36:52 AM
What is the best way to tell a formerly cerified EMT (in another state) that unless you certify in our state, you can only do Standard first aid (if your certified).  They are constantly carring around there EMT Bag.  What is considered to be the basic first aid level (differences)

I'd encourage him to renew his EMT cert in the current state, but beyond that, it's not illegal to provide EMT-B level care even if you're not certified in the state you're standing in, while in an emergency situation. The only time one needs to be certified in the state you're in is if you're working with a service that utilizes you primarily as an EMT, and that person is approved by the service medical director.


Just for Reference where does it state it is not illegal to provide EMT-B level care outside of being apart of a medical controlling agency?

Generally speaking, you don't need a law saying "it's OK."  If it's not spelled out somewhere as being illegal or against regulations, you are good to go.  We don't live by permission of Big Brother, requiring explicit approval for all the actions we might want to take.  Potential civil liability is an entirely different animal.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."