Military Service Credit from TMRS for CAP?

[Anthony@CAP]

I'm certainly not qualified to answer the question, but you can read the law here: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/pdf/GV.853.pdf (Subchapter F. Military Service)

In regards to some questions posed here the law seems to clarify some and leave others open.

1) The most important question is what constitutes "Active Duty," which the TMRS law doesn't address specifically. You'll have to figure this one out with them. I would imagine they will fall back on the definition used by the Military which can be found in Title 10: "The term "active duty" means full-time duty in the active military service of the United States. Such term includes full-time training duty, annual training duty, and attendance, while in the active military service, at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary of the military department concerned. Such term does not include full-time National Guard duty."  (You would need to confirm this)

2) With regards to discharge, the law only specifies that "the person's military service was terminated by release from active duty or discharge on terms not dishonorable;" so you would be good on that count as long as it wasn't dishonorable (2B with termination for cause)

3) The dates section is from the form and is referring to your service dates, not generally allowable dates.

4) The credit for military service section of the law wasn't added until 1981 or 1989 (Depending on the section) - so I would say it is safe to assume that the speculation regarding WWII Auxiliary Service having an effect is negligible.

But you really need to ask the TMRS or a lawyer to provide you with a better understanding. They have an FAQ here: http://www.tmrs.org/how_member_credit_military.php it doesn't address Auxiliary's specifically, but does clarify that your non-Active Duty time in the Reserves and National Guard does not count, so I would imagine the same would apply to CAP, i.e. only those times you were called to active duty count (so my assumption would be never).

[Garibaldi]

I'm certainly not qualified to answer the question, but you can read the law here: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/GV/pdf/GV.853.pdf (Subchapter F. Military Service)

In regards to some questions posed here the law seems to clarify some and leave others open.

1) The most important question is what constitutes "Active Duty," which the TMRS law doesn't address specifically. You'll have to figure this one out with them. I would imagine they will fall back on the definition used by the Military which can be found in Title 10: "The term "active duty" means full-time duty in the active military service of the United States. Such term includes full-time training duty, annual training duty, and attendance, while in the active military service, at a school designated as a service school by law or by the Secretary of the military department concerned. Such term does not include full-time National Guard duty."  (You would need to confirm this)

2) With regards to discharge, the law only specifies that "the person's military service was terminated by release from active duty or discharge on terms not dishonorable;" so you would be good on that count as long as it wasn't dishonorable (2B with termination for cause)

3) The dates section is from the form and is referring to your service dates, not generally allowable dates.

4) The credit for military service section of the law wasn't added until 1981 or 1989 (Depending on the section) - so I would say it is safe to assume that the speculation regarding WWII Auxiliary Service having an effect is negligible.

But you really need to ask the TMRS or a lawyer to provide you with a better understanding. They have an FAQ here: http://www.tmrs.org/how_member_credit_military.php it doesn't address Auxiliary's specifically, but does clarify that your non-Active Duty time in the Reserves and National Guard does not count, so I would imagine the same would apply to CAP, i.e. only those times you were called to active duty count (so my assumption would be never).

Wondering if Georgia has a similar law on the books...

[Eclipse]

Many states now have job protection for times when CAP is activated for ES during working hours, and
those states define what constitutes eligibility for those protections, generally its some official
document from the Wing CC or similar indicating the nature and duration of the activation.

That's the nearest you're ever going to get to "active duty" in a CAP context. 

I've had that happen to me, and as far as I know in my entire wing, exactly once in 15 years, for Katrina.
We had official orders cut by the Wing CC and issued in our names because there was some concern
regarding A-Status coverage and travel into the DA.

[DrJbdm]

     Thanks for all the replies, I tried to log on and reply to this earlier but AT&T U-Verse seems to love keeping me in the dark ages for days at a time. I agree with the consensus that the only truly accurate answers will come from TMRS itself. I had the initial thought that when the form stated "or its auxiliaries" that TMRS may be talking specifically about the National Guard or the reserve components of the active duty military and stated "auxiliaries" versus further clarifying National Guard or Reserve Components.

      I did find this small section in the law that Anthony@CAP posted on his excellent reply:

Sec. 853.502. OTHER MILITARY SERVICE CREDIT. (a) The
governing body of a participating municipality by ordinance may
authorize eligible members in its employment to establish credit in
the retirement system for active military service performed as a
member of the armed forces or armed forces reserves of the United
States or their auxiliaries, for which service the members do not
receive credit under Section 853.501.

      However, as Anthony@CAP pointed out, I am not sure you could make much of a claim for active duty service in CAP, even if you did add up all the week long schools or other 'A' missions that were performed over the course of ten plus years in CAP. I might be able to make a claim for a month or two, but not much more than that, hardly worth the effort in that case. I do think a call to TMRS is in order to clarify. The form does state that a DD-214 or its equivalent is needed to claim the credit for time. Not sure that CAP has anything that would constitute an equivalency to a DD214.

     It would be very interesting if they did recognize the time with CAP, doubtful but what a game changer in Texas for government employees enrolled with TMRS.

[RiverAux]

I don't see the "active" stuff as a big deal.  As far as CAP is concerned it doesn't take much to be considered an active member -- heck, wasn't that actually defined in a recent reg change somewhere.  Remember, you're on CAP duty when you're at meetings, etc.  Its not just time spent on AFAMs. 

But, again it doesn't even matter what CAP says, it is what the pension system says.  If they say you get credit for years of CAP membership, thats fine too.

While this reg apparently wasn't done during WWII, it was pretty common at the time of its adoption for various institutions to recognize WWII auxiliary organizations such as the WACS.  I still strongly suspect that is what they meant, but the actual language would include CAP. 

[Mitchell 1969]

     Thanks for all the replies, I tried to log on and reply to this earlier but AT&T U-Verse seems to love keeping me in the dark ages for days at a time. I agree with the consensus that the only truly accurate answers will come from TMRS itself. I had the initial thought that when the form stated "or its auxiliaries" that TMRS may be talking specifically about the National Guard or the reserve components of the active duty military and stated "auxiliaries" versus further clarifying National Guard or Reserve Components.

      I did find this small section in the law that Anthony@CAP posted on his excellent reply:

Sec. 853.502. OTHER MILITARY SERVICE CREDIT. (a) The
governing body of a participating municipality by ordinance may
authorize eligible members in its employment to establish credit in
the retirement system for active military service performed as a
member of the armed forces or armed forces reserves of the United
States or their auxiliaries, for which service the members do not
receive credit under Section 853.501.

      However, as Anthony@CAP pointed out, I am not sure you could make much of a claim for active duty service in CAP, even if you did add up all the week long schools or other 'A' missions that were performed over the course of ten plus years in CAP. I might be able to make a claim for a month or two, but not much more than that, hardly worth the effort in that case. I do think a call to TMRS is in order to clarify. The form does state that a DD-214 or its equivalent is needed to claim the credit for time. Not sure that CAP has anything that would constitute an equivalency to a DD214.

     It would be very interesting if they did recognize the time with CAP, doubtful but what a game changer in Texas for government employees enrolled with TMRS.

You picked a bad time to try bolstering a public pension. If public employees, labor unions, politicians or taxpayers learned that somebody was able to bolster their public pension by rolling in their time in a volunteer service organization, you'd need earplugs to protect you from the combined screaming of bloody murder that would be heard from the Rio Grand to Niagara Falls.

[AirAux]

Requirement says 'active duty" not "active member".  We are not military and we have not been on "active duty".  I served in the military and there is more than a wee bit of difference.  I would be embarrassed and ashamed of any CAP member that tried to equate the two.  Next I guess we will be trying for veteran status??

[Storm Chaser]

I suspect that by "or its auxiliaries", they actually meant " or its reserve components". Granted, that's not what it says.

[Brad]

Requirement says 'active duty" not "active member".  We are not military and we have not been on "active duty".  I served in the military and there is more than a wee bit of difference.  I would be embarrassed and ashamed of any CAP member that tried to equate the two.  Next I guess we will be trying for veteran status??

I'd wager that's simply an uninformed bureaucrat using general language instead of intentionally grouping "active duty" with "active member" as most people aren't generally aware of CAP unless we take the time to explain it, much less the fact that we're not actually in the military.

[lordmonar]

And now the fun begins.

Now we get the "How dare you compare"
And the "Webster's defines Active Duty as"


Give it a break.

[CAP_truth]

As I looked at the law, I think what they are referring to is an employee who received orders to report for active duty would get credit to retirement for time they were deployed.

[DrJbdm]

I have plans to call TMRS on Monday and speak to them. My thought is that they are specifically referring to reserve or NG personnel. Yes, the language is misleading, and they may have to stand behind that language if someone ever decided to push the issue, although for the life of me I can't understand why someone would do that. All they are offering is up to 60 months of service time on your TMRS retirement account, not the money with it. Time is not nearly as valuable as the money that goes along with it. I could have the time pretty quick with what I have applied from other qualifying plans I was in, but the money isn't there. I'm not eligible to retire with full money for about another 10 to 15 years. Unfortunately, I lost more then seven years of both time and money because my last agency was not a TMRS member city, they chose to give us 401K plans instead.

If TMRS does choose to recognize CAP as being a military auxiliary and awards service time for said service, then that is their right to do so and regardless of anyones personal feelings on the issue, there is nothing wrong with that. I would be highly surprised if that is the case however.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Now for my uniformed non-lawyer, non-TX person's opinion......if it says "or their auxiliaries" that would be CAP so I would give it a try.

:oMaster Sergeant, we agree!

Without the phrase "or their auxiliaries" I would say the member's position is dodgy at best.

This can vary widely by state and/or employer.

My own personal experiences were widely varied.

At one job interview, the interviewer did not like anything to do with the military (he was a Mennonite)...so I did not get hired.

Most of the time, when being interviewed for a job where the employer had not heard of CAP (one said, "Yes, I have, but I did not know it still existed!") I usually used a variation of the following spiel.

"We are the volunteer civilian Auxiliary of the Air Force.  We do not have drill weekends or summer UTA's, nor are we subject to callup like the Air National Guard or Air Force Reserve.  We give our time as we have it available."

That usually got good results.

There were interesting things that happened because of CAP.  I got excused from jury duty because of CAP.  Even though I explained to the judge what CAP was, he took the (friendly, I might add) attitude, "If something major happens, the country is going to need you more than we do.  You are excused, and thank you."

Another time my CAP membership helped me with a job.  The interviewer, who became my boss, was retired Air Force and had served in Vietnam (Thailand actually).  He said, "Yes, I used to see CAP people doing this and that on various bases where I was stationed.  It always amazed me the job they did for no pay."

However...a former "friend" of mine who was a manager type just did not get it.  He was talking more about the Guard/Reserve than CAP but he said, "no way would I ever hire someone in any military component...reserves get called up every time Saddam Hussein farts, and that's a pain in the ass for a manager to deal with."

[Storm Chaser]

Wow! So active duty and auxiliary (e.g. CAP) service counts, but not Guard or Reserve? After all, it's not spelled out.

[Sapper168]

Well, by definition it wouldn't apply to current members, and CAP doesn't have an "honorable" category of termination.

"Voluntary", yes, but not "honorable" per se.

Honorable=leaving on good terms
Dishonorable=2B. 

So you are saying 2B or not 2B....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Wow! So active duty and auxiliary (e.g. CAP) service counts, but not Guard or Reserve? After all, it's not spelled out.

Curious indeed.

Then there is SDF/State Guard service...

[Storm Chaser]

Wow! So active duty and auxiliary (e.g. CAP) service counts, but not Guard or Reserve? After all, it's not spelled out.

Curious indeed.

Then there is SDF/State Guard service...

SDFs/State Guards can be activated by the state, which is their state equivalent to federal active duty service. The closest thing in CAP would be when activated for a mission. I doubt "or its auxiliaries" refers to just being an active member of CAP.

[Garibaldi]

Well, by definition it wouldn't apply to current members, and CAP doesn't have an "honorable" category of termination.

"Voluntary", yes, but not "honorable" per se.

Honorable=leaving on good terms
Dishonorable=2B. 

So you are saying 2B or not 2B....

Well, that IS the question. Whether it is nobler blah blah blah

[Mitchell 1969]

I have plans to call TMRS on Monday and speak to them. 

So, how did it go?

[flyboy53]

Don't read between the lines on this one. Credit for retirement in a state retirement system varies from state to state based on the laws of that state.

Generally, the qualifier is any form of federal active duty or any type of call-up, mobilization or orders under U.S. Code, Title 10...the same stipulation that would qualify someone for veterans benefits. CAP never got to that point and the efforts during the 50s that resulted in "Honorable Discharge" certificates didn't include DD Form 214s of their equivalent.

In this instance, the term Auxiliary means one of two things: Either those 24 or so special groups of people that are entitled to veteran's benefits to include civilians serving or being held POW in a war zone or those things like the State Guard, State Militia or State Defense Force who are called to active duty under U.S. Title 32 and are paid for their active duty service through the state.