ES gear for a new guy

[Walkman]

Alrighty folks-

I just started Scanner training and will be working on GT training within a month or so. I know I need a 24hour survival bag for each, so I'm fishing for recommendations.

I'm just starting out, so I'm trying to start small, a little cheaper and with just the essentials for now. I'm a gadget freak, so I'm sure it won't be long before my wife starts rolling her eyes about my newest gizmo, though. 

What's a decent bag I can to carry all this stuff in? Where to buy?

Basic "Go-Bag" contents (including good brands and where to buy?)

Thanks!

[_]

I always tell new guys to go cheep and simple to begin.  For a pack I tell them to look around to see if they have an old book bag.  If you can get your hands on an alice pack through a surplus store or Ebay you can use that for your 24 until you decide on a more permanent 24hr gear setup and then you can use the alice for your 72hr gear.  A trip to walmart should get you pretty much everything for in the pack pretty cheap.

Don't get an "ultralight" pack.  They are ultralight because they are made of lighter/less material that doesn't hold up to the wear and tear you'll put on it.

[Trouble]

Jon is right, Wal-mart is a great place for most of what you'll need. 

The GT/UDF Team handbook has the require equipment list, and since you are starting out you'll only need the items marked with a "T".  See if you can get a Medium Alice Pack from Supply, Ebay or Surplus Store. Ebay may be the best bet, I don't remember seeing any Surplus Stores the last time I was in Cache Valley (yes I keep my eyes peeled for those).  Depending on how committed you are already, you might also want to get a set of LC2 Webbing, or something similar, it usually is not too expensive and will do the job quite well.  If you find you are really into this stuff and have extra $$$ to burn, then you can look for higher speed. lower drag gear.

[0]

I've got the gear seperated.  For my Flight bag I keep it in an old book bag. 

My GT/UDF which is just 24 hour right now I keep in a fishing vest and yes I can get everything in it. 

[jimmydeanno]

I keep in a fishing vest and yes I can get everything in it. 

If it weren't filled with flotation foam, I thought this was pretty neat.  You reminded me of them when you said fishing vest.

NiFtY VeSt

[0]

This one actually doesn't have any floataion element to it unlike most of them. 

[Thor]

You should be GTG with the large/medium ALICE pack, and maybe the LC2 web gear. You can pick it up for a relatively cheap price (if not free), and they hold up pretty well. Later on down the road, and if you really get into it, you may want to go for a more high speed system with some load bearing gear/vest and a newer pack, but for now the ALICE/LC2 should do it.

[DC]

I use LC2 gear personally, it takes abuse pretty well and keeps all of my gear right there. I used a back pack when I first started out, and I don't reccomend it, it drags you down. I can fit all of my 24hr gear in a butt back, a compass pouch, and the cargo pockets on my BDUs.

As for gadgets, keep it simple. The lighter and less electronic dependent you are the happier you will be.

I would also reccomend a Camelbak instead of canteens, more comfortable, and less hassle, you just pull down the straw when you want to drink, rather than javing to drag out the canteen and unscrew the top, drink, then screw the top back on, fiddle with the pouch, attempt to fasten the snaps, and repeat 10 minutes later if it's a hot day...

[0]

Camelbacks are definately the best way to go.  You can also get some from REI that are backpacks which are good for holding UDF gear. 

[Stonewall]

Here is another thread that discussed gear options.  It may or may not help you out in your quest for gear. 

Yes, I'm a gear queer.

[Thor]

In regards to that thread, London Bridge makes great gear, just be ready to spend some money on it.

[gistek]

At one point I had full 72 hr gear packed inside a large school type backpack with my 24 hr gear in a fanny pack and/or hanging from the belt. This included my sleeping bag.

Yes, my sleeping bag. I used a fleece bag liner inside a "space blanket" sleeping bag and was fine down to freezing temperatures during a training camp out. My "tent" is a large poncho held up with whatever is available.

When I go back on active SAR status, I'll probably use the same setup. (I'm off active status until my medical situation stabilizes.)

[Stonewall]

Quick question here.

I haven't been involved with cadets buying ES gear for about 4 years now.  Doesn't seem like a long time, but the US military gear has changed a lot since 9/11.  For those who are cool with folks using military style LBE, has anyone noticed a decrease in availability?

Cadets at my squadron are showing an interest in doing some ground team stuff.  I think they've always had the desire, but my guess is no one really got down and dirty with them.  Think I'll start getting them involved.  Need to know if it's even worth me telling them about standard issue LBE and packs.

[0]

Well one good idea is if they get camelback to get the ones that also are a hiking back pack.  You can fit the full 24 hour gear in those. 

[SARMedTech]

If what you are looking for is high quality/high speed/low drag, then its the CamelBak BFM. Best, most comfortable pack on the market and huge storage capacity. But it will run you abou $200. I have one that I was given as a tester and love it. Also I have a CFP-90 Combat Field Pack with detachable day pack (aka ranger pack). I use the ranger pack as my 72 hour pack and it has worked just fine. Sometimes I am in the field, or living out of a tent for up to 14 days and then I break out the CFP-90 itself which is big enough to bring along all the comforts of home. They can also get pricey though not as bad as the BFM. Also for long deployments I carry a "blow out" bag which has lots of compartments in it for storing little stuff. I dont remember where I got it but its called a soft side foot locker. Its 39 inches on and generally if I am using it, I dont carry a pack at all since in IMERT we dont do alot of loaded down rucking so its just  matter of getting the gear off the c-130 and to the staging area.

I do concur with what was said about not blowing the wad on the first rucksack that catches your eye. I recently participated in a SAR competition and I knew from the terrain that my stuff was going to get ate up. So thats when I use the K-mart blue light special. Its an athletic pack made by Champion and actually has nearly as much room as the BFM, but without the sternal straps which I rigged up myself with some compression straps.

I spent alot of time and money trying out just the right thing or combination, consequently once I get squared away, you can start looking for some high speed but generally unnecessary gear on ebay.  The ALICE pack idea is also a good starter outer and I just saw one their for around $30 with frame, straps and pads.

If I can be of help in your search, please feel free to contact me.

[Eclipse]

I would recommend against the full-framed ALICE pack, unless you know for sure you are going to actually hike into the AO's.

The are bulky, and the frames are a PITA to be lugging around when not on your back.

I'd recommend a soft-framed army style pack with an integrated sleeping bag deal on the bottom - got mine on eBay for about 20 bucks, hold more than an regular framed ALICE, has a ton of attachment points and isn't as hard to cram in a trunk or storage area.

For the majority of CAP ES people, a good eLBV or SARMED is perfect for day work, with a military duffel for your 72-hour base gear.

Edit:  I hate to recommend something obscure without an example or link, well it turns out that what I have may be a bit more obscure than I thought.  Its made by Lowe Alpine Systems, which is a supplier of military equipment, however the tag says "EXPERIMENTAL".  DAAK60-86-C-0047.

Hmm...

There's not much directly on the web, but you have to love eBay:




Link to auction: http://tinyurl.com/2n7xfu

Its listed at $85, but I didn't pay 1/2 that when I bought it to replace my ALICE full-frame.  The dark brown area in the bottom is the place for the bedroll, which unzips separately, and has a lace-up access panel inside, so that area can be used to make the main compartment that much larger.

Mine is packed full w/ 72 hour gear, plus ringed around with attached cartridge holders (those square belt deals everyone uses, full of extra base gear, etc.  Plus an e-tool and some other goodies.

One thing I would definitely recommend, whether you go ALICE, Lowe, or other, is a cover like this:
Its just an large piece of BDU material with an elastic band, but when its on the pack it makes it a nice, smooth, single "lump", instead of a bunch of of hanging stuff that catches on branches, tire irons, etc. I'm always asked where I got it when people see it.



Link to auction: http://tinyurl.com/352ztk

[Walkman]

Our GTM trainer got a Scout in his church to make 24-packs for his Eagle project. Each of us that went on the recent FTX got one, so I've got all the contents, but they used a school style backpack and I'd like something a bit more rugged and comfortable.

I got Christmas money, so I'll be getting a pack with that.

I've been looking at the medium size ALICE pack with frame and a CamelBak bladder to go inside. This and other threads, as well as other places I've researched, seem to have about 85% saying the the ALICE is a great pack and pretty comfortable, with the rest being very against the idea. It seems that most people love 'em, but a vocal few hate 'em.

Eclipse , I don't know what AO is short for, but I live in the Rockies, so any SAR I'm going out on will be on rough, mountainous terrain. Does that make a difference?

The other thing I've been looking at is the whole LC2 suspenders/web belt thing. If I have an ALICE, do I need the web gear? Are they part of the ALICE system? What would I use them for?

[_]

I think Eclipse is referring to an Area of Operations.  ALICE and web gear are pretty much the same.  ALICE refers to the overall system, pistol belt, suspenders, ammo pouches, packs, etc.  When I hear web gear I think of the pistol belt and suspenders.  If you are going to be doing a lot of climbing over, on, around rocks and mountains it's probably a good idea to go with some kind of military type load bearing equipment.  Web gear or MOLLE gear is good at allowing you to distribute the weight around you to allow better balance when climbing stuff.  If you use a pack you are concentrating all of the weight in one area, your back, which will pull you backwards.  Also using an external frame with the pack will push the weight of the pack farther from your body impairing balance further.  When I suggest an ALICE pack I suggest it until they get a better set of gear for 24 then they can still use the ALICE pack for their 72hr pack.

[Walkman]

Between an ALICE system or the CFP-90, which would be the best bet, considering the following:

1. Mountain & canyon SAR missions, most likely a lot of hiking & climbing
2. Aside from CAP, I'm also an assistant scoutmaster. We overnight camp at least once a month (sometimes hiking to the site) plus scout-camp and High Adventure trips. Add the family outings and I'll be out & about at least 3-4 weeks a year between Spring & Fall. I want something versatile to handle all the outdoor situations I'll be in.

[Stonewall]

Between an ALICE system or the CFP-90, which would be the best bet, considering the following:

1. Mountain & canyon SAR missions, most likely a lot of hiking & climbing
2. Aside from CAP, I'm also an assistant scoutmaster. We overnight camp at least once a month (sometimes hiking to the site) plus scout-camp and High Adventure trips. Add the family outings and I'll be out & about at least 3-4 weeks a year between Spring & Fall. I want something versatile to handle all the outdoor situations I'll be in.

I have and use both.  During winter time, I used the CFP-90.  Were in snow, mountains, etc.  I love how it has a separate opening for the fartsack (sleeping bag) so you don't have to dig through everything to get to it.

[_]

As a disclaimer I have not used a CFP-90.  The ALICE pack is 1070's technology and the CFP-90 is late 80's early 90's tech.  The ALICE has an external frame so it can generally handle heavier loads better and the space between your back and the pack allows more air to circulate which means a cooler back.  The CFP-90 is more inline with newer civilian pack technology.  It has an "internal" frame which is now the vastly more popular type of frame for packs.  An internal frame pack is usually more comfortable, more stable and the pack overall is usually lighter.  It has become hard to find newer made external frame packs.  Now as I pointed out, the ALICE pack has been around for a while and still holds up well but there is a reason why they have moved away from it.

[Stonewall]

As a disclaimer I have not used a CFP-90.  The ALICE pack is 1970's technology and the CFP-90 is late 80's early 90's tech.  The ALICE has an external frame so it can generally handle heavier loads better and the space between your back and the pack allows more air to circulate which means a cooler back.  The CFP-90 is more inline with newer civilian pack technology.  It has an "internal" frame which is now the vastly more popular type of frame for packs.  An internal frame pack is usually more comfortable, more stable and the pack overall is usually lighter.  It has become hard to find newer made external frame packs.  Now as I pointed out, the ALICE pack has been around for a while and still holds up well but there is a reason why they have moved away from it.

Sounds about right.  Another reason why I tend to use the Large ALICE pack during the summer is the gap between my back and the pack.  As was said above, allows for air flow.

[_]

There's a good video that was made for Kelty that talks about external frame packs vs internal packs.  It's a little hard to get.  The only way I've been able to get it is through iTunes.  If you have iTunes installed click on the link.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=165787517

The episode you want is "Kelty backpack fitting."