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Nav Gear For UDF

Started by MIKE, May 20, 2005, 08:28:37 PM

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MIKE

Land nav has got to be one of my weakest areas in terms of Emergency Services...  Well except for COMM everything is pretty weak, been doing ES for quite a while but mostly as the team RTO... I've coasted by until now but now I'm retraining for UDF and we come to task  O-0010 PREPARE URBAN DF TEAM INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT.  I suck at Nav... Where the hell am I kind of bad, so I never invested in proper nav gear.

I have a GI lensatic compass and a GPS... I need a decent map compass with a clear plastic base and luminous dial. Willing to spend 15-20 to replace the Silva Starter I've got.  What is good but cheap?

I've been looking on www.rangerjoes.com and saw the compass they have... They also have the alcohol pens and eraser and small map cases which I would like.  I saw the fancy protractors they have also... I only need a regular protractor like I used in geometry right?  Hopefully I can find a light flexible one that also has at least a 6" ruler.

Ideally I'd like to keep stuff small light and cheap, and have everything fit in the map case... I don't know If I'll actually use it outside of training, but it would be nice to have some halfway decent stuff to learn with instead of being a cheap bastard. 
Mike Johnston

Horn229

Unless you go on a lot of missions and frequently use land nav skills, there isn't really a point to buying all that stuff. All I use is a 3 dollar compass from walmart and a map that I've added the CAP grid system too. The protractor is only really there for the sign off list, I've never used one on 6.7 years of GT. Also, the map case can be a large ziplock bag. ;D
NICHOLAS A. HORN, Senior Member, CAP

voopvoop

Land Nav is a tough course.  I took one through the Army and had to do it twice.  Working on it regularly will help!  I know silvas are the compass of choice for a lot of guys but if your shooting bearings the Lensatic is my choice.  Plus its a bit more robust. 

BTW I ended up buying the Ranger joes stuff too.  I don't really use it much but....  It's on the list so you gotta have it.  Getting a second UDF team that can radio bearings WILL motivate you and put that jazz to work.  Triangulation IS our friend.

MIKE

Quote from: voopvoop on June 05, 2005, 11:54:39 PM
I know silvas are the compass of choice for a lot of guys but if your shooting bearings the Lensatic is my choice.  Plus its a bit more robust. 

BTW I ended up buying the Ranger joes stuff too.  I don't really use it much but....  It's on the list so you gotta have it. 

Seems the task guide favors the Lensatic, It's the one I would trust if the batteries in my GPS die... If I only knew how to properly use each of them.  :(  The Silva I have looks really cheap... It appears to point north, but there isn't much else to it.  We've been told to get map compasses instead of Lensatic because according to the instructor Lenstatic compasses are not preferred for this area nor are they particularly well suited for map work... I wouldn't mind getting a new map compass if it will make learning easier.  I will still keep my GI Lensatic should I ever need it.
Mike Johnston

Skyray

There are many variations of equipment that enable acceptable performance.  The number one asset is familiarity with the equipment and skill in using it.  I mostly work in an urban environment, so my weapon of choice is a copy of DeLorme streetmaps with the GPS accessory running on a laptop with an inverter power supply.  If that cops out, the built in compass in my Jeep Grand Cherokee and a county street map is plenty good enough.

When I go out into the weeds, I am faced with mostly impassable swamp.  If it is passable, I like to use an orienteering sight compass, and I fall back on a Lensatic for bearings and triangulation.  I also use a lot of weird stuff like a "T" square and a roofers triangle with a string and plumb bob for measuring verticle and horizontal angles.  But nobody ever said I wasn't weird.
Doug Johnson - Miami

Always Active-Sometimes a Member

KC0IEA

A good source for "protractors" is www.maptools.com
He also has several of the scales that can be downloaded as PDF files and printed on transparency material.  If you go this route follow direction and check the result before trying to navigate using the printout.
If you chose to purchase the prices are good and the quality very good in my opinion.

Sgt. Savage

UDF gear is kinda funny. Your L'per is going to be out more than your compass. Triangulation is important but, you don't need a "great" compass for that, a good one will do. Step up to a Silva Ranger. You can get one for around $20. I use pencils on paper maps. No sense in using pens if you don't have too. The great thing about gear lists is that no one makes you carry what you don't use. If your list is the typical list, request exceptions for gear you won't use... like bug spray in a blizzard.

davedove

Quote from: KC0IEA on May 23, 2007, 06:01:07 PM
A good source for "protractors" is www.maptools.com
He also has several of the scales that can be downloaded as PDF files and printed on transparency material.  If you go this route follow direction and check the result before trying to navigate using the printout.
If you chose to purchase the prices are good and the quality very good in my opinion.

Thanks for that website.  I also like their selection of map rulers.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Major Lord

The Coleman brand lensatic compass is availalble at Walmart or Target and works well for our purposes. I suggest buying only wilderness gear that you can afford to lose or break. ( Since you probably will)

Capt. Lord
Ground Team Leader, EMT, etc.
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiverAux

Never liked lensatic compasses.  Too squirrely.

SarDragon

Quote from: RiverAux on May 23, 2007, 11:50:47 PM
Never liked lensatic compasses.  Too squirrely.

It's all a matter of technique.   ;)
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

sardak

#11
Quote from: KC0IEA on May 23, 2007, 06:01:07 PM
He also has several of the scales that can be downloaded as PDF files and printed on transparency material.  If you go this route follow direction and check the result before trying to navigate using the printout.
Second that.  The default PDF setting when printing may have a reduction factor.  Check before you print.  Taught a class once where the master was printed with 95% reduction and the scales didn't fit the maps. Doh!

Quote from: MIKE on June 06, 2005, 12:20:35 AM
Seems the task guide favors the Lensatic
That's because much of the material came from the Army map and compass field manual.  A lensatic is OK. Just make sure it has a straight-edge on the base (not all do) and is marked in degrees (some are graduated in mils).  I prefer a baseplate type compass with a sighting mirror.  Commonly referred to as an "orienteering" compass although true orienteering compasses don't look anything like them.

Brunton makes a Braille compass (really)
http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=89

Silva has the "Open-Up" compass
This is an invaluable tool for the outdoor enthusiast! A full function SILVA System compass integrated into a handy tool for different "OpenUp" applications:
OpenUp soda/beer type bottles
OpenUp soda/beer cans
OpenUp plastic boxes
OpenUp sardine type boxes
OpenUp paint boxes
Use OpenUp to release the vacuum in glass tins
Use OpenUp as an ice scraper
Use OpenUp to clean the car vipers
Use OpenUp to clean the bottom of the camping frying pan/pot
Use OpenUp remove ski wax from your skis
Use OpenUp to remove dirt from windows
Use OpenUp Compass for SILVA 1-2-3 SYSTEM navigation
http://tinyurl.com/38enb7

And Silva made a Muslims Compass for helping find Mecca (seriously), although I can't find it in the current catalog (see photo).

Mike

Al Sayre

In case any one is interested I saw a nice little GPS on  Bargain Outfitters for $99.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

davedove

Quote from: RiverAux on May 23, 2007, 11:50:47 PM
Never liked lensatic compasses.  Too squirrely.

I was trained in the Army with the lensatic compass, so that's what I'm most comfortable with.  However, I have been working with an orienteering compass, and it is much better for map work.  Shooting an azimuth is still easier with a lensatic, in my opinion.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

O-Rex

I bought all of the required GT-UDF gear: Ruck with frame, LBV with fanny-pack, tent, sleeping-bag: the works-all mil issue, and only used it when I trained to get the ratings, and one Cadet FTX.  Now it's all in my attic.....

When I get UDF calls, I'ts usually at the end of the day when I'm at work, and I usually keep a golf-shirt combo, vest, radio, handheld GPS and L-per in the trunk of my car.  If I'm taking cadets with me (which is not very often) I'll wear BDU's.

Advice: unless you are in a unit that REALLY does do SAR in the boonies, borrow what you can for your training.

Ironic: I spent bux buying the very same gear that I couldn't wait to turn-in when I got out of the Army. . . .

Flying Pig

Using a GPS isn't land nav!  ;D  I would never go out with a GPS unless I had a compass and knew how to use it.

Dragoon

A lensatic compass, by virtue of its sight system, is extremely good at determining the bearing to a distant, visible point.  Comes in handing when calling for fire or giving spot reports on the enemy.

An orienteering (i.e. Silva) compass, by virtue of having a transparent base and movable scale, is extremely good at plotting azimuths on a map.

As an Army guy I learned on a lensatic and favored it.  But I discovered that the most common map skill in UDF work is triangulation - plotting azimuths on a map.  You don't often sight on distant objects during UDF missions - because the one distant object you're looking for (the ELT) ain't in sight!

So I switched to an orienteering compass, and life got much easier.

But if CAP ever asks me to call for fire, I want my lensatic back!

SAR-EMT1

AHH... The black vans have a mortar from an old Vietnam Era 113 mounted on board to fire through the sun roof.

Applications are now being taken for Artillery Spotters.
Applicants must have attained the Rank of CAP Major and must have attended ALL Corporate Leadership Schools. - SLS through NSC
The positions require knowledge of a black Chevy Astro as well as whatever airframe is currently in use by the 122 SOS.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

Sgt. Savage

The official Black Van Website lists the system as:

M120 120mm Mortar
The M120 120mm Mortar replaces the M30 4.2 Inch Mortar in motorized infantry unitsCAP Black Van Units. The M120 is transported on the M1100 Trailer by the M998 High Mobility Multi-Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV). Black Chevy Van. The M120, like all other US mortars, fires fin-stabilized ammunition from a smooth bore. Although heavy mortars require trucks or tracked mortar carriers to move them, they are still much lighter than field artillery pieces. They outrange light and medium mortars, and their explosive power is much greater.

The M120 Mortar System consists of the following major components:
M298 Cannon Assembly (110 lbs)
M190 Bipod Assembly (70 lbs)
M9 Baseplate (136 lbs)
M1100 Trailer (399 lbs)
WEIGHT  319 LBS 
Max Range  7200 Meters 
Min Range 200 Meters 
Max Rate of Fire  16 rounds/min (first minute) 
Sustained Rate of Fire 4 rounds/min 
Towed  36 Rds 
Carrier  69 Rds 
Crew 5 Man 
MUNITIONS M 933 High Exp Rd
M 929 Smk Rd
XM930 Illum Rd
XM983 Illum Rd
XM931 Prac Rd

Unfortunately, there has been a great deal of trouble getting qualified FO's to direct/adjust fire. It appears that everyone keeps saying " I'm a pilot, I don't do ground work".


Tubacap

I am thinking about getting a Brunton 8096 compass.  Does anyone have any experience with it?  I like the 1 degree deliniation on the dial as my current Silva is crappy.  I also subscribe to what Capt/Maj Lord said about loosing it.  I found the Brunton online for $22. 

Anyone have anything that would beat that?
William Schlosser, Major CAP
NER-PA-001

floridacyclist

I'm pretty firmly convinced that my GI lensatic compass will probably be around even after a global thermonuclear meltdown. That said, people who have GPSs need to use them and learn how to change their settings in real time. When we are working with other agencies, all they care about is how fast we can get the job done, not how well we can shoot an azimuth or measure distance with a pace count. I think these are good skills to have and to ractice, but the biggest navigational problems we've had on missions have had to do with people trying to use a GPS that they are unfamiliar with. The biggest thing is ti know your limitations with a GPS and how to change coordinate systems on the fly.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

notaNCO forever

Quote from: Tubacap on February 03, 2008, 07:34:11 PM
I am thinking about getting a Brunton 8096 compass.  Does anyone have any experience with it?  I like the 1 degree deliniation on the dial as my current Silva is crappy.  I also subscribe to what Capt/Maj Lord said about loosing it.  I found the Brunton online for $22. 

Anyone have anything that would beat that?
I have a Brunton compass and it's a very good piece of equipment. i would definitely recommend getting one.

Ricochet13

Give me my good old GI lensatic compass.  Have had it for a long time and while I know there are others that will work, I KNOW it will!  Great for night compass course too, although not much call for that in CAP I'm sure . . .  well other that the AFRCC calls at "O-dark thirty" in the morning  ;D 

DKruse

I have a Silva Ranger 530.  A little on the pricey side, but it's a VERY nice compass.  Highly recommended.
Dalen Kruse, Capt., CAP
St. Croix Composite Squadron
NCR-MN-122

Ad hadem cum gloria. Faciamus operum.

notaNCO forever

I very highly recamend a suunto MC-2. Around $50 It's about the best one for C.A.P.