Does anyone have a good source to get a Personal Portable radio for CAP use. I am not currently a licensed HAM and don't have the first clue on how to get there, but I do want to look at getting a radio as I am working on my UDF / GTM / GTL qualifications.
You will need to attend a daylong class to achieve an ROA card before you are allowed to
own or be issued a radio which is programmed for CAP use.
In addition to that, you should be aware that you can only be licensed on equipment which is compliant as per CAP specifications.
The compliant list can be found on the NTC website:
https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/digital_summary.cfm
At some point in the relatively near future, we will be moving to the narrow-band spectrum, which means our frequencies, tones, repeaters, etc., will be changing. There is some political wrangling going on with Canada and Mexico over assigned frequencies, however the expectation is that this will work itself out sometime next year.
In the interim, there is very little compliant equipment that you can still buy which can be licensed, most equipment which is compliant today is so because of grandfathers, and you could not buy the same radio today and have it licensed (had to be in service before "X" date).
Your best bet is to get the A-Cut card and then request a radio through the chain to your Wing DC, who may well be sitting on a pile of gear.
The only radios being issued by CAP right now are EF Johnson mobiles and handhelds.
They are referred to as the "mortgage payments" for good reason - while the venerable VX-150 was well within reach of most members, the EFJ's are not.
I have already attended both BCUT and ACUT. That is why I was looking to see if anyone had a good source to buy a radio from. Everything that I have seen, from ebay to direct sell, is between $900 and $2K for the post 1/06 compliant.
Quote from: 2d Lt M. Sherrod on November 29, 2007, 09:15:16 PM
I have already attended both BCUT and ACUT. That is why I was looking to see if anyone had a good source to buy a radio from. Everything that I have seen, from ebay to direct sell, is between $900 and $2K for the post 1/06 compliant.
That's my point - if you've already got an A-Cut, you should request one from Wing, there are specific allocations of radio equipment, separate from the general issues, for active ES people.
My Wing has issued over 45 sets of mobile / HT gear, with more on the shelf.
Most were issued, however, to qual'ed GTL's, as a start. YMMV based on your wing.
I purchased my radios at the Ham Radio Outlet in New Hampshire, but I'm not sue if that is an option anymore. My radios are in the category of "you can still use them, but no new ones can be licensed for CAP use". Still, look to see if the HRO is selling any compliant radios.
Don't buy a radio right now!
It is a REALLY REALLY bad idea and will most likely be a huge waste of money on a future paperweight.
Wait for a while until the narrowband transition is finished, and they have finalized the compliance issues.
The radio complicance spec's have changes several times in the last 2-3 years making equipment purchased even as Narroband compliant obsolete once.
So please heed the warning of others and mine as well. If you want equipment, get your ES ratings, and work with your Comm O and get one issued.
I have been able to buy Icom F30G's for as low as 65.00 on E-Bay by last minute auction sniping. They usually come without batteries, antennas or drop in chargers, something that can be remedied for less than 50.00. They are wide and NB compliant, but not APCO, which we will start using as soon a Tony Pineda becomes the POTUS. I was able to buy 6 radios this way by watching E-Bay carefully. Most of the people thought they were sellng 16 channel radios, when in fact they are 256 channel radios, individually programmable by channel for power, wide/narrow, and CTCSS. The one downside is that they don't have DCS. Even new these radios are only about 600.00.
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 03:53:10 PM
I have been able to buy Icom F30G's for as low as 65.00 on E-Bay by last minute auction sniping. They usually come without batteries, antennas or drop in chargers, something that can be remedied for less than 50.00. They are wide and NB compliant, but not APCO, which we will start using as soon a Tony Pineda becomes the POTUS. I was able to buy 6 radios this way by watching E-Bay carefully. Most of the people thought they were sellng 16 channel radios, when in fact they are 256 channel radios, individually programmable by channel for power, wide/narrow, and CTCSS. The one downside is that they don't have DCS. Even new these radios are only about 600.00.
Major Lord
OK Major Lord... now in English, please... this thread is for those who don't know all abbreviations yet.
NB = ?
APCO = ?
CTCSS = ?
DCS = ?
I have my ACUT, but I took that course in English, not shorthand.
Quote from: afgeo4 on November 30, 2007, 06:02:25 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 03:53:10 PM
I have been able to buy Icom F30G's for as low as 65.00 on E-Bay by last minute auction sniping. They usually come without batteries, antennas or drop in chargers, something that can be remedied for less than 50.00. They are wide and NB compliant, but not APCO, which we will start using as soon a Tony Pineda becomes the POTUS. I was able to buy 6 radios this way by watching E-Bay carefully. Most of the people thought they were sellng 16 channel radios, when in fact they are 256 channel radios, individually programmable by channel for power, wide/narrow, and CTCSS. The one downside is that they don't have DCS. Even new these radios are only about 600.00.
Major Lord
OK Major Lord... now in English, please... this thread is for those who don't know all abbreviations yet.
NB = ?
APCO = ?
CTCSS = ?
DCS = ?
I have my ACUT, but I took that course in English, not shorthand.
Sorry!
NB= Narrow Band
APCO= Digital transmissions we will never use. Here is a link: http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/project25/information.html
CTCSS' Continuous Tone Coded Squelch. Sometimes called "tones" or "PL" These give you access to a repeater
DCS= Digital Coded Squlech, a more elegant way of accesing repeaters and keeping your radio from breaking squelch all the time unless its someone you want to talk to. CAP for the most part does not use it.
I know I am going to have all the techies out there screaming at my gross over-simplifications ( We hate anything to be simple in the radio world, it makes us seem smarter and special to know lots of spooky intelligent-sounding tech-talk! ) Suffice to say that an ICOM F30 is CAP-Kosher, covers our foreseeable VHF operating frequencies, and is more affordable than most CAP (NTIA) approved radios. Once you get your callsign, you will probably go out and buy a ham radio and give it the old CAP diodectomy mod anyway....No, you would not do that, it would be morally wrong! ;))
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 06:29:03 PMOnce you get your callsign, you will probably go out and buy a ham radio and give it the old CAP diodectomy mod anyway....No, you would not do that, it would be morally wrong! ;))
Major Lord
Not only morally wrong, but illegal and against regs.
Not to mention the fact that >you< don't get a callsign, your station does, and if you already have a station, bought or issued, why would you bother illegally modding a radio?
A couple of radios were donated to my unit a while back and unfortunately, we have no commo gurus on hand. I don't even know if they're "CAP-kosher", but I'd like to. They're brand new. If I post the make/model, will you be able to tell me if they're worth getting certified and channeled or if we should just e-bay them for squadron funds?
Actually, you can go to the official CAP communications compliance website-->https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/equipment.cfm (https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/equipment.cfm) and look them up.
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 01, 2007, 03:17:45 AM
A couple of radios were donated to my unit a while back and unfortunately, we have no commo gurus on hand. I don't even know if they're "CAP-kosher", but I'd like to. They're brand new. If I post the make/model, will you be able to tell me if they're worth getting certified and channeled or if we should just e-bay them for squadron funds?
As an FYI - property of any kind cannot be accepted at the unit level - it must be accepted by Wing, which will make them a corporate asset and not the unit's call as to disposition without permission.
Hate to be the reg stazi, but it'll be worse if you sell them without permission - when you account for the cash with the Wingbank, someone is bound to raise the issue of selling a corporate asset.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 07:33:10 PM
Quote from: Major Lord on November 30, 2007, 06:29:03 PMOnce you get your callsign, you will probably go out and buy a ham radio and give it the old CAP diodectomy mod anyway....No, you would not do that, it would be morally wrong! ;))
Major Lord
Not only morally wrong, but illegal and against regs.
Not to mention the fact that >you< don't get a callsign, your station does, and if you already have a station, bought or issued, why would you bother illegally modding a radio?
Good (important) point. The chances of getting busted might be slim, but I wouldn't want to take that chance. Have you ever seen how high FCC fines are? Many times they are in the tens of thousands of dollars.
Wouldn't we fall under NTIA not FCC fines? Not that I am an expert on legalities in comms. I prefer being an expert in using the radios. :D
Did I not predict that a few radio people would freak out over my generalizations? They are just soooo predictable! On the question of whether the FCC would have jurisdiction, the answer is yes. The second you operate a non-FCC type- approved radio modified to operate out of the ham bands, you have comitted a violation. I am not aware of any enforcement capability within the NTIA. My guess is that they would turn knowing and willful violations over to the regular federal authorities. Since we have established now that the use of non-approved radios, or modified ham radios is illegal, immoral, and violates CAP regs, I am sure that you will make a citizens arrest for a violation of the the U.S. Code the next time you see a CAP member use his VX-150.......Thank you eclipse, for safeguarding the moral, legal and regulatory rules of CAP!
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on December 01, 2007, 06:03:39 AM
Did I not predict that a few radio people would freak out over my generalizations? They are just soooo predictable! On the question of whether the FCC would have jurisdiction, the answer is yes. The second you operate a non-FCC type- approved radio modified to operate out of the ham bands, you have comitted a violation. I am not aware of any enforcement capability within the NTIA. My guess is that they would turn knowing and willful violations over to the regular federal authorities. Since we have established now that the use of non-approved radios, or modified ham radios is illegal, immoral, and violates CAP regs, I am sure that you will make a citizens arrest for a violation of the the U.S. Code the next time you see a CAP member use his VX-150.......Thank you eclipse, for safeguarding the moral, legal and regulatory rules of CAP!
Major Lord
Yeah, I think you may be going overboard with the claim about the VX-150. According to my wing's comm staff, we are still authorized to use the VX-150, the only restriction is that
new VX-150s can't be registered or given callsigns. Ones that were already authorized before a certain date are still legal (for now, that will change at some point).
Quote from: Eclipse on December 01, 2007, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 01, 2007, 03:17:45 AM
A couple of radios were donated to my unit a while back and unfortunately, we have no commo gurus on hand. I don't even know if they're "CAP-kosher", but I'd like to. They're brand new. If I post the make/model, will you be able to tell me if they're worth getting certified and channeled or if we should just e-bay them for squadron funds?
As an FYI - property of any kind cannot be accepted at the unit level - it must be accepted by Wing, which will make them a corporate asset and not the unit's call as to disposition without permission.
Hate to be the reg stazi, but it'll be worse if you sell them without permission - when you account for the cash with the Wingbank, someone is bound to raise the issue of selling a corporate asset.
Eclipse...
I believe there IS property that may be owned/operated by the squadron. If I decide to donate a uniform item, it doesn't have to go through Wing and become a corp asset. If it's a coffee machine, it doesn't go that route either. If a computer is donated, it isn't an issue of Wing property.
What regulation states that anything given to a unit must become corporate property? What regulation states that property of a unit may not be sold off? This isn't property of CAP. It is the unit's members' property. Purchased with their personal funds for their use. Sure, you can't sell off Corporate property that's issued, but... if you bought it, you can sell it. If you disagree, please quote the proper reg.
I split this to here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=3665.new#new
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 07:33:10 PM
Not to mention the fact that >you< don't get a callsign, your station does, and if you already have a station, bought or issued, why would you bother illegally modding a radio?
I'm confused at your stating that only stations have callsigns. Are you referring to a HAM or a CAP radio? I have a (CAP) callsign (Redfire 1**) but I do not have a radio. Nor does my unit have any radios, not even ISRs.
Quote from: davidsinn on December 02, 2007, 01:01:01 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2007, 07:33:10 PM
Not to mention the fact that >you< don't get a callsign, your station does, and if you already have a station, bought or issued, why would you bother illegally modding a radio?
I'm confused at your stating that only stations have callsigns. Are you referring to a HAM or a CAP radio? I have a (CAP) callsign (Redfire 1**) but I do not have a radio. Nor does my unit have any radios, not even ISRs.
I did some checking with my Wing DC and this apparently is a local Wing policy, not a national one - the reasoning being that based on our current plan, we only have XX### to work with, which results in only 999 possible call signs, and is an issue for larger wings.
So on this, YMMV per wing...
I understand what you're saying but my cadet commander has the callsign Redfire 7*** so Indiana wing has 10000 possible callsigns. There appears to be little rhyme other than cadets are 7000 series, ACUT callsigns start at 101 and the wing staff start with the wing commander as Redfire 1 and go from there. I do know that you can have 2 callsigns. One is yours and is permanent and the other is your position and gets assigned to your replacement when you leave.
Quote from: davidsinn on December 02, 2007, 01:27:52 AM
I understand what you're saying but my cadet commander has the callsign Redfire 7*** so Indiana wing has 10000 possible callsigns. There appears to be little rhyme other than cadets are 7000 series, ACUT callsigns start at 101 and the wing staff start with the wing commander as Redfire 1 and go from there. I do know that you can have 2 callsigns. One is yours and is permanent and the other is your position and gets assigned to your replacement when you leave.
I can't speak to what IN is doing, but that doesn't sound correct at least in as much as the number of digits.
Anyone have a reg handy they can cite?
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 01, 2007, 06:15:18 AM
Quote from: Major Lord on December 01, 2007, 06:03:39 AM
Did I not predict that a few radio people would freak out over my generalizations? They are just soooo predictable! On the question of whether the FCC would have jurisdiction, the answer is yes. The second you operate a non-FCC type- approved radio modified to operate out of the ham bands, you have comitted a violation. I am not aware of any enforcement capability within the NTIA. My guess is that they would turn knowing and willful violations over to the regular federal authorities. Since we have established now that the use of non-approved radios, or modified ham radios is illegal, immoral, and violates CAP regs, I am sure that you will make a citizens arrest for a violation of the the U.S. Code the next time you see a CAP member use his VX-150.......Thank you eclipse, for safeguarding the moral, legal and regulatory rules of CAP!
Major Lord
Yeah, I think you may be going overboard with the claim about the VX-150. According to my wing's comm staff, we are still authorized to use the VX-150, the only restriction is that new VX-150s can't be registered or given callsigns. Ones that were already authorized before a certain date are still legal (for now, that will change at some point).
Thats right, VX-150's purchased or placed into service before January 2006 are wideband compliant. These radios are narrow band capable, but don't meet the NTIA specifications. Mainly, their frequency stability (at 5 ppm) is twice the allowable spec. All ham radios will sunset eventually (my beloved Icom 706MKIIG was cut from the list of allowed radios, causing me much grief!) I was being tounge-in-cheek when I suggested arresting people for using the wrong radios. I look at regulations the way I look at safety equipment: Its not what they protect you from, but what they allow you to do!
Major Lord
Quote from: Major Lord on December 02, 2007, 01:35:36 AMI look at regulations the way I look at safety equipment: Its not what they protect you from, but what they allow you to do!
Well...good luck with that...
The VX-400 and VX-180's fall into the same category as well - capable but non-compliant unless in-service before Jan 06.
The initial issue was that there were few, if any, "inexpensive" radios which were both NB & WB compliant, making it difficult to buy a radio pre-NB-cutover, because who wants to spend $1-400 or more on something which is a brick (for our use) in 6-months to a year.
Since then, they have revised the standards, and much of what was touted as replacements fell off the list as well.
We have some people in my wing who bought (then) compliant equipment, but sat on the certification
and licensing until after the new standard was published and had "issues" getting the radios put into service.
Right now its near-ought impossible to know if a radio in a members' hand is "legal" or not, or for that matter if the member is even appropriately licensed, however after the cutover, that will change somewhat, though not 100%.
So you're saying that the brand new VX-400V I found in my new squadron's cabinet is useless? (it isn't registered)
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 09, 2007, 02:14:48 AM
So you're saying that the brand new VX-400V I found in my new squadron's cabinet is useless? (it isn't registered)
If it isn't on the currently approved list and isn't registered, you won't be able to register it now and use it.
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 09, 2007, 03:31:45 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 09, 2007, 02:14:48 AM
So you're saying that the brand new VX-400V I found in my new squadron's cabinet is useless? (it isn't registered)
If it isn't on the currently approved list and isn't registered, you won't be able to register it now and use it.
According to the NTC site, the VX-400 must have been in-service prior to January 2006 to be compliant.
My advice would be to discuss this with your Wing DC ASAP. He may be able to work with you on the definition of "in-service" - I have seen where some DC's are legalistic and hold to the letter of "licensed by CAP to you by Jan/06", some more lenient and saying if it was in use "anywhere", CAP or otherwise, it'll be ok, and some saying that if you bought it prior, but circumstances precluded getting it licensed, they will let you use it.
However, if you have a virgin radio, with a receipt dated Jan 06+, you may well have an expensive paperweight (as far as CAP use).
And if its on your books, as it should be, you can't even sell it without permission, and if you do, the proceeds are corporate funds that have to be returned to NHQ, with no guarantee they will be returned to the unit.
I know my wing has 4-digit call signs available but frankly, personal radio call signs are hardly ever used. I suppose they might if we operated a comm net, but we don't.
Quote from: RiverAux on December 09, 2007, 02:06:54 PM
I know my wing has 4-digit call signs available but frankly, personal radio call signs are hardly ever used. I suppose they might if we operated a comm net, but we don't.
What do you use? Tactical only?
Are you sure they aren't running a net, maybe you just not in range of the repeators - we have that issue in some areas.