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McGuire AFB Air Show

Started by acarlson, May 13, 2007, 01:12:22 PM

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SarDragon

Quote from: flyguy06 on May 15, 2007, 04:14:36 PM
Statr from the beginning. What was the activity? What was supposed to happen? What happened?

I asked that Q of the Cadet Colonel in charge. His response:

1) The activity was the 2007 McGuire AFB Air Expo

2) We were tasked with assisting the air force with a variety of jobs and work details including parking, entrance control, environmental services, and special assignments

3) We supported the air force in such a large way, we never received a negative comment, but received hundreds of thanks from sergeants on the flight line right on up through the base commander.  We had our problems, but they were overcome and we get the mission done.

From another source:
An accurate quote from an Air Force officer this weekend, and former Spaatzen, summed this up nicely by saying, "The only people mad at CAP, is CAP."
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

CASH172

OK well, the airshow had quite a few incidents.  A lot of these could've been avoided but with 1400 people, it was difficult.  While the end result of us helping at the airshow was accomplished, the quality of care and supervision that cadets recieved was not the greatest.

Now almost any CAP event will have a couple of bumps, but this was probably the one with the most bumps.  I don't want to go into details because I know the higher ups are discussing exactly what happened and such tonight, but as soon as they tell their story, I'll tell mine. 

flyguy06

You had 1400 CAP volunteers at one event? what kind of incidents occured?

SarDragon

According to what I've read on CS - no dead, no serious injuries, some food issues, some supervision issues, some lessons learned.

Depending on who you listen to, it ran from an absolute disaster to a qualified success. The bashers have nothing good to say, and the folks with positive attitudes acknowledge the mistakes, and look to move on to the next opportunity. Also, the number was probably closer to 1100 than 1400.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SJFedor

It sounds like this should have been handled more like an NCSA then a standard run of the mill weekend airshow with those numbers.

Sounds like a major migraine. But, if the AF was happy, maybe they'll give NJWG another chance next year to get it better organized.

*sigh* I'm just going to go back to my airplane and be a happy CAP pilot  >:D

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

CASH172

I honestly don't think that we'll ever know the true number of people that came.  Check-in was so messed up that we might never get a real number.  Also came and simply left before signing in.  There really wasn't a check-out and a lot of people left during the airshow, some within a couple hours. 

Pylon

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2007, 05:22:36 AM
Also, the number was probably closer to 1100 than 1400.

From what I understood from Command Staff at the end of the event, the number who reported in was 1,210 CAP personnel, of which 950 were cadets.

Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2007, 05:22:36 AM
...no dead, no serious injuries...

Only by sheer luck, and not by any planning, supervision, or protection.  A cadet could have easily died or been seriously injured and someone might not have even discovered them until morning.   Perhaps a CAP Chaplain somewhere was just praying really hard for the cadets at this activity...
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

afgeo4

A cadet may die at any activity, supervised or not. The officers did what they had to do and overcame the burdens and challenges to take care of their men and women. That's what the officer credo is. Mission First! People Always!

This mission was accomplished. It was challenging. There's lots to learn. Let's move on and not kill each other over what was an extremely difficult task for all of us. I would just like to praise those that stuck around and carried out a mission for America. I know most don't even think about it, but the 305th AMW and 514th AMW were able to send a lot of airmen home for mother's day because of us. So what if we had just one slice of pizza?
GEORGE LURYE

CASH172

Well what really bugged me about this activity was the lack of accountablity.  When the fire alarm went off in 5213, there was no accountabilty check because none had been established from before.  When we went back into our barracks, a cadet was found still sleeping in his bunk.  If it was a real fire, he probably would've been dead, but the thing that really gets me is that no one would've known he was missing. 

SarDragon

Quote from: CASH172 on May 17, 2007, 03:54:31 AM
Well what really bugged me about this activity was the lack of accountablity.  When the fire alarm went off in 5213, there was no accountabilty check because none had been established from before.  When we went back into our barracks, a cadet was found still sleeping in his bunk.  If it was a real fire, he probably would've been dead, but the thing that really gets me is that no one would've known he was missing. 

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AMThis mission was accomplished. It was challenging. There's lots to learn. Let's move on and not kill each other over what was an extremely difficult task for all of us.

Can we do that now? Otherwise, we are beating a dead horse, and wasting time and bandwidth.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

acarlson

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AM
....So what if we had just one slice of pizza?

Captain, I hope you're not working with cadets!.

Annette Carlson, 1Lt CAP
PDO, PAO, Pers, & Historian
Doylestown Composite Squadron 907
Doylestown PA

afgeo4

Quote from: acarlson on May 17, 2007, 09:55:31 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AM
....So what if we had just one slice of pizza?

Captain, I hope you're not working with cadets!.


I always have, do, and will. Perhaps the cadets I work with have gotten past being wienies?

Integrity First
Service Before Self
Excellence in All We Do
GEORGE LURYE

afgeo4

By the way, any opinions on the blatant disregard for regulations and instructions by the members of the Pennsylvania Wing when it comes to uniform headgear? They all showed up in unit distinctive orange baseball caps when NJ Wing does not authorized them (expressly stated in the regs that only the unit cc can authorize them for their unit wear) and in the activity sign up, the wear of unit distinctive headgear was expressly prohibited. Only the BDU cap was authorized.
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
By the way, any opinions on the blatant disregard for regulations and instructions by the members of the Pennsylvania Wing when it comes to uniform headgear? They all showed up in unit distinctive orange baseball caps when NJ Wing does not authorized them (expressly stated in the regs that only the unit cc can authorize them for their unit wear) and in the activity sign up, the wear of unit distinctive headgear was expressly prohibited. Only the BDU cap was authorized.

hold on there high-speed.  The question was asked by a colleague of mine on what the deal was with not allowing anything but BDU Caps.  Here is the response received from Major McGuire and forwarded to me:

QuoteI appreciate your kind words and am find myself troubled by the remainder of your email.  So that it is clear, this is not all about you or even your wing it is all about presenting a professional, uniformed, positive image of Civil Air Patrol to the United States Air Force. 

    We have someone thousand two hundred people registered as part of this command representing each and every wing within the Northeast Region.  I attribute this amazing response in part due to the way that the activity was presented and the manner in which it was reinforced.  As part of this message an equipment list was published, disseminated, and posted on our web page.

    The equipment list posted in February and reinforced ever since clearly outlines the issue of wing specific covers.  Being that I am the author and approving authority of the correspondence in question, I am happy to share with you the intent of this consistent message, a message that 1200 other registered participants appear to have understood.

    The intent was to address NJWG members.  You see, here in New Jersey we have a blue wing specific cover that has our unit number on it.  The message was clear, there are to be none at the air show so we can present a uniformed organization.  In my 29 years of CAP service it has been my understanding that  wing specific covers are specific to each wing and should not be worn outside of the wing.  With this in mind, I hope you see that this is not at all about you or your wing, rather it was all about addressing the members of NJWG. 

    I find your statement that this a "a direct affront to the members of  Pennsylvania" offensive and without merit.  There has been a consistent message presented to the region concerning the show.  The messages clearly outlined the goals, objectives, and requirements for participation in this event and moreover, have not deviated since being posted in early February 2007.  Similarly, my contact information has also been available since then making the timing of your email is awkward at best, days prior to the activity.

Now..... Some Wings (PAWG) do not allow the member to wear anything but a distinctive orange cover.  The logistics of ordering BDU Covers for the PAWG members going to McGuire were difficult.  Try getting vendors to ship 100+ BDU Covers.  I called every MCSS withing 300 miles of DIX/McGuire.  The answere I allways got was....."we have 3 maybe 4".  Lets face it......aafes does not have the BDU Covers in stock.....MCSS stores are moving their stocks......and not replenishing them.  Also......does it make any sense to pay for a cover.....so you can go to McGuire to make money for your unit?  NO........I repeat N O!!  IF the Air Force would have come down and said "we want all CAP in BDU Covers", thats one thing........but they DID NOT!  The whole planning and coordination was terrible.

Oh....and to make it clear, PAWG is the only Wing that has written permission from both NHQ and the Air Force to wear a distinctive orange cover.  It may date back to 1951, but it is still permission that no other wing can say they have. 

I hate the ORANGE hats......and would rather wear BDU Covers......but that won't be happening.  However, the PAWG members followed "higher" orders than what the airshow planners were dishing out.   

I hope the people involved with this years air show.....DO NOT have anything to do with it next year.  The NJ/PA State Director is furious at what happened.  He says the AF/Army is not at all happy with the job CAP did.  He is still getting phone calls.
What's up monkeys?

captrncap

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 17, 2007, 01:26:41 PM

I hope the people involved with this years air show.....DO NOT have anything to do with it next year.  The NJ/PA State Director is furious at what happened.  He says the AF/Army is not at all happy with the job CAP did.  He is still getting phone calls.

Well I just found out that the NYWG IG is also investgating this as well.

Sgt. Savage

We had a contingent from our wing (ME) go. A SMSGT (Not cadet) summed it up well. Logistics were not prepared well. Organizers tried to micromanage. Units weren't pre-tasked and briefed on their duties, the event organizers were trying to use people as they found them, instead of giving the unit OIC's the task and allowing them to execute.

It all comes down to planning and, frankly, it's pretty consistent with what I see come out of CAP; little planning, hastened execution, poor result.

LtCol White

#36
Not being familiar with any of the details and logistics other than what was written here, it seems like what was missing was competent Command and Control. An event of this size cannot be micromanaged or run haphazardly. 1200 personnel requires extensive planning with pre-event assignments and policies communicated well in advance of the event. There should have been (and perhaps there were) meetings of all the C&C elements prior to the event to review resources and needs so that on the day all showed up, it simply became an execution of the plan that everyone was already well versed in. This should have been run like a mission with and IC and staff.

Just my 2 cents on how this size of an event needs to be run and don't mean to be critical of anyone since I don't know all the facts.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

mikeylikey

#37
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 03:59:48 PM
It is the responsibility of EVERY CAP member to purchase CAP authorized uniforms.

Umm.....NO.  Read below  THIS IS WHAT MEMBERS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE.  THATS IT!  BDU's don't fall into that category...

Quotea. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.


I am just not finding the specifics in the regulations that say CAP Baseball caps can't be worn outside of the wing authorizing them.  It does says the UNIT Commander can authorize them.  Well the PAWG Commander authorized them.  Major McGuire or whoever else was running the show is not the "Unit Commander", they are the activity coordinator.  Big word.....ACTIVITY.  Now.....if NER Commander came down and said PAWG.....you MUST wear bdu covers, thats a different story. 

On the subject of Orange ballcaps........if I were able to at this very instance pull the letter from AF/NHQ authorizing PAWG members to wear orange ballcaps to activities outside of PAWG I would.  However, I only make it up to Wing HQ occasionally.  I guarantee you though.....When I do I will make sure every wing commander gets a copy......so we don't have this confusion in the future.  Also be prepared......Pineda likes the orange caps.....and has dropped many hints at making it mandatory organization wide to adopt. 

Like I said before.....I hate the orange caps.....but don't try to dictate regs, without citing them in your post.  Please if I am so off on this......post the citation and I will drop it.   


What's up monkeys?

LtCol White

I dont have a prob with orange hats or any other color but I do think that all members should also have the standard BDU hat for uniformity sake when you have to be in a formation with other squadrons or wings. For example, a region encampment. To have mixed headgear in a formation looks crappy. Aside from certain activities, I think various headgear is fine but everyone should also have the standard for wear when appropriate even if they are authorized by NHQ to do something else individually.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

RiverAux

For a multi-Wing event like this they should have followed the CAP standard for headgear in order to present a uniform appearance to the public. 

Now as to the planning that should go into a 1-2000 CAP member event with what I suppose were dozens and dozens of different units, I have a hard time imagining the amount of planning that would have to be done in order to pull it off. correctly.