Is a Air NG/AF type of relationship possible for CAP?

[JAFO78]

It's very much possible.  Look at what Maryland did.  Maryland Military Department recently signed an MOU with MD Wing.  But MD Wing and MDANG has been working together for several years.  One thing that is done is the MDANG Shadow Program.  Where MD Wing cadets spends time with MDANG personnel doing various jobs at ANG bases.  Also MD Wing has served them during Guard weekends.  MDNG has lend MD Wing Camp Frettred for Encampments and other activities.  There is a story about it on CAP HQ website and MD Wing Website. 

How about a link to MD Wing?

[md132]

The link for MD Wing is as follows.

http://www.mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=313

Pictured are MD Wing Commander Col Weiss, MD TAG Maj Gen Bruce Tuxill, MDDF CG BG Courtney Wilson (My SDF Commander), Assistant Adjudant General of Air, Brig Gen Charles Morgan (Note he's wearing the new ABU's, and other MD Wing Personnel.

[JAFO78]

Thank You Sir.

[JohnKachenmeister]

IF CAP were to be transfered under the ANG, it would mean that an MOU with the state is not necessary.  The method of callups and the means to reimburse CAP for gas would be handled by orders from the ANG rather than a contract.

As long as CAP remains an independent corporation, an MOU or request for CAP service through NOC would still be necessary.  You're confusing the federal level National Guard Bureau with state military departments.  Even if CAP-USAF, which oversees CAP for the AF, were placed in the NGB (which it could), that doesn't change existing relationships with the states that CAP the corporation has developed.  You would need to dissolve the corporation and take many of the steps I outlined in my first post to change the situation to what you would like. 

I do not believe that Colorado's relationship with the State Military Dept. is via MOU, but if you look at their website, the Co. Wing of the CAP is a co-equal agency under the Adjutant General Dept.  I'm not sure about Iowa, but I recall one of Nick's posts that they did not work out the agreement via an MOU, but rather through a different relationship.  It has also worked out to their advantage.  Also, I think Kentucky is under the Air National Guard, and I'm not sure if that is by MOU or not, but CAP in there cases ends up being an integral part of the state's National Guard organization.

[JohnKachenmeister]

An MOU is one way of working out cooperative agreements.  It is not the only way. 

[RiverAux]

There are a couple of states with official CAP "departments" within their organizational structure, but those states don't have any more control over what their CAP wing does than anyone else.  If that state wants CAP they're still going to have to call NOC or AFRCC unless there is an MOU outlining other procedures. 

The point is that unless you drastically change federal and state laws you will not have any state-CAP relationship that is significantly different than what is possible now and you will NOT have any situation where the state governorn has any actual authority over CAP.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There must be either an MOU or some other mechanism to activate CAP.  And a state would not have to go through the Air Force if the funding was Title 36 money from the state.

What we would be talking about is creating an administrative substitute for the MOU, perhaps an ANG policy on CAP employment by AG's.  Call it a "National MOU" if you want, but it could be done within the framework of existing statutes.

[ZigZag911]

Kach,

My suggestion builds on yours....that the CAP wing function as the Air Component of the SDF, under the operational control (for state missions) of state adjutant general, reporting through & working with state ANG.

I'm not sure about the legal niceties, but I would suspect that, with the proper legislation at federal and state levels, this could be made to work -- after all, they already have the paradigm provided by the Guard itself!

[JohnKachenmeister]

It would function as an SDF under Title 36.  States would have to be aware that calls by the Air Force, just as with their own National Guard, would take priority.

I was going to do some legal research while I'm bored at work today.

The idea of aligning CAP as a National Guard asset has some benefits and some drawbacks.  We should be careful what we wish for.  Overall, I think it would be good for the country, but may make demands on the membership that some would find unacceptable.

[BillB]

John, and what do you do with states that don't have an SDF, like Florida?

[isuhawkeye]

2 pages, and no mention of the "Iowa Plan". 

If your interested in seeing how well CAP can function with the guard (without changing our structure only our culture)  stop bye for a drill weekend. 

[mikeylikey]

^ But what have you done for the Guard?  Other than welcome home ceremonies and flying high-bird radio relay (as most wings already do that)??

[isuhawkeye]

Staffed the State EOC at their request


Conducted training and briefings for officers learning how to interact with civilian responders

Conduct staff training for officers arriving in new staff assignments

Functioned as UAV's in a multi million dollar training exercise

Be their aerial platform.  When requests come in for National guard aircraft to support local authorities they redirect the mission to CAP

Provide Russian interperaters during a foreign dignitary visit

Conduct briefings and tours for Russian Military units

Attend Monthly Chief of staff briefings

Provide Search Management teams to look for and locate a missing National guard soldier.

Provide aerial, and ground transportation for the Governor and his staff (Prior to current restrictions)

Provide aerial reconnaissance, for the state's CST (Civil Support Team) before, and during several high profile events

Provide First aid care to tactical elements when no medic was available

Test accuracy of radar installations by flying established aggressor profile missions

Test, challenge, and demonstrate the abilities of an experimental VOIP system

Test and evaluate VOIP VHF gate way systems

Staff the National guard recruiting booth at the Iowa State Fair

I could go on, but I really don't have time.

Many of these missions ended up as A, and C missions, but they all were generated for us by the Iowa National Guard


And yes we do attend departure, welcome home ceremonies, funerals, and promotions, because they consider us part of their family

[mikeylikey]

^ OK Good enough for me.  Thanks!  Question......manning the NG recruiting booth?  Wouldn't you be better at manning the CAP recruiting booth? 

Also.... I have to say some wings already do what you wrote, and they have no "formal" agreement.  But like you said there was more, but you were done typing......I will make the assumption that you do WAY more. 

Cool Pics BTW.

[isuhawkeye]

CAP couldn't get a recruiting booth at the fair.  they are few and far between, plus they cost thousands of dollars.  After all any single booth space will come in contact with as many as 100,000 people a day. 

That list is limited, and it does not include the classic A missions like damage assessment, shelter ops, missing persons, etc.  The guard forwards many missions to CAP through A mission channels.

[JohnKachenmeister]

John, and what do you do with states that don't have an SDF, like Florida?

Bill:

CAP would NOT function like an SDF.  It can't.  It has a federal role under Title 10, same as the "Real" National Guard.  That's why I think CAP would fit in well with NG organizations.  The NG has to respond to federal missions, under Title 10, and state missions under Title 32.  Our "Non-federal" missions come under Title 36, but it is basically the same.  We would respond to two masters, which is exactly what every National Guard commander in the country has to do as well.

SDF's are "Pure" state troops.  Titles 32 and 10 do not pertain to them, as they are completely state funded.  They cannot be called into federal service.

The principal advantage of placing CAP under the ANG is the Posse Commitatus Act would not apply to CAP when called out in a state role.  Also, the myriad "MOU" problem would be solved, since we would have ONLY two masters, the Air Force and the state AG.  Any local govt. or NGO that wanted CAP air support would go through the state AG with their request.  MOU's and reimbursement would be handled through the state, not the wing king.

The other advantage is that the cumbersome process of requesting a CAP mission would be seriously simplified, and in a disaster, the AG can coordinate ALL air assets under a central military command.  That's called "Unity of Command" and is seldom seen in actual disasters, which is why disaster operations frequently turn into "Charlie Foxtrots."

[RiverAux]

Without changing federal and state laws that there will be no essential change in how CAP can be called, activated, or controlled.  We will remain either the Air Force Auxiliary when performing federal missions or a non-profit corporation that may chose to do certain missions for local and state governments if we chose to do so.  Just because CAP-USAF is in the NGB, doesn't mean that CAP is a "National Gaurd asset" or that anything regarding actual control of CAP operations will be different than now.

Also, the myriad "MOU" problem would be solved, since we would have ONLY two masters, the Air Force and the state AG.

No, our two masters would still be the Air Force and the CAP corporation. 

[Any local govt. or NGO that wanted CAP air support would go through the state AG with their request.

Every Wing already has an MOU which usually forces requests for CAP assistance to go through a single state agency.  Putting CAP-USAF in the NGB is not going to change that.  How would that force a state to use the AG rather than their state emergency mgt agency to coordinate CAP requests?

[ZigZag911]

John, and what do you do with states that don't have an SDF, like Florida?

This is why I said maintain federal status & character of CAP, but create the potential for states to utilize CAP as air component of their SDF.

Some states with an SDF will choose not to do so.

States lacking an SDF will probably leave things alone.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Without changing federal and state laws that there will be no essential change in how CAP can be called, activated, or controlled.  We will remain either the Air Force Auxiliary when performing federal missions or a non-profit corporation that may chose to do certain missions for local and state governments if we chose to do so.  Just because CAP-USAF is in the NGB, doesn't mean that CAP is a "National Gaurd asset" or that anything regarding actual control of CAP operations will be different than now.

Also, the myriad "MOU" problem would be solved, since we would have ONLY two masters, the Air Force and the state AG.

No, our two masters would still be the Air Force and the CAP corporation. 

[Any local govt. or NGO that wanted CAP air support would go through the state AG with their request.

Every Wing already has an MOU which usually forces requests for CAP assistance to go through a single state agency.  Putting CAP-USAF in the NGB is not going to change that.  How would that force a state to use the AG rather than their state emergency mgt agency to coordinate CAP requests?

For some reason, we are not communicating well.  I'm talking macro, you're listening micro, or something.  This is an outside-the-box proposal, and your box-lid sems to be nailed down tighter than most.  Let me run this through from the beginning.

Under this plan:

CAP would transfer from the AU to the ANG.  (NOT the NGB, which is a DoD command).

CAP has two types of missions:

1.  Federal, under Title 10, USC.

2.  Corporate, under Title 36, USC.

Our Federal missions would be unchanged.  AFRCC could still call up such CAP assets as they need directly, as could 1AF.  This would be the same as NORAD calling up ANG interceptors.  We would remain an Aux. of the USAF anytime the USAF needed us. 

What would change is our corporate missions.  This arrangement would make the "MOU" obsolete.  We would perform corporate missions for the Adjutant General, exclusively.  If a local govt., NGO, or any state dept other than the AG wanted CAP assets, they would request them from the AG in the same manner that they would request any other National Guard support.  These regulations are already in place.

Instead of a wing commander negotiating MOU's with a state emergency preparedness dept and scores of county EOC's, there would be ONE set of rules nationally, placing the AG in command of the CAP wing for operational purposes (Operational Control).  Administrative Control would remain with NHQ, CAP.  The cadet program would fall under the administrative chain of command.

So the following scenarios would work like this:

1.  Missing aircraft.  No change.  AFRCC notifies the wing, the wing scrambles aircraft and ground search teams.

2.  Disaster.  Big change.  Local mayor or sheriff requests National Guard assistance.  Governor authorizes NG assistance, and the AG calls up such forces as are needed to assist in the disaster, which may or may not include CAP light aircraft.  They would, however, be at the call and on the dime of the state.

3.  Really Big Disaster.  Little change.  CAP and NG forces would probably be already called up as a 36/32 mission on the state's dime.  1AF may then, once the President declares it to be a national disaster, fund the mission as a Title 10, both for the NG forces and the CAP.   

4.  Local emergency.  Big change.  Local sheriff needs light aircraft for search.  AFRCC declines to fund the search, as it is a law enforcement mission.  Sheriff asks the AG for support, AG calls out CAP assets as a Title 36 mission, on the state's dime.  The state may or may not send the bill to the county depending on state law and local procedure.

5.  State govt. administrative request.  State Dept. of Highways wants aerial photos of all bridges, but has no airplanes.  Highway Dept asks AG to provide planes.  AG calls up CAP planes.  AG sends bill to Highway Dept.

Are you out of that box yet?

[isuhawkeye]

Is this the box you want to play in???

"Civil air patrol" means the civilian
  1  4 auxiliary of the United States air force established by the
  1  5 United States Congress in 36 U.S.C. } 40301 et seq., and 10
  1  6 U.S.C. } 9441 et seq.
  1  7    Sec. 2.  NEW SECTION.  29A.3A  CIVIL AIR PATROL.
  1  8    1.  The civil air patrol may be used to support national
  1  9 guard missions in support of civil authorities as described in
  1 10 section 29C.5 or in support of noncombat national guard
  1 11 missions under section 29A.8 or 29A.8A.
  1 12    2.  Requests for activation of the civil air patrol shall
  1 13 be made to the commander of the Iowa wing of the civil air
  1 14 patrol.  Missions shall be in accordance with laws and
  1 15 regulations applicable to the United States air force and the
  1 16 civil air patrol.  Prior to activation of the civil air
  1 17 patrol, the adjutant general or the Iowa civil air patrol wing
  1 18 commander shall apply to the air force rescue coordination
  1 19 center, the air force national security emergency preparedness
  1 20 agency, or the civil air patrol national operations center for
  1 21 federal mission status and funding.
  1 22    3.  If an operation or mission of the civil air patrol is
  1 23 granted federal mission status and assigned an accompanying
  1 24 federal mission number, the following shall apply:
  1 25    a.  The operation or mission shall be funded by the federal
  1 26 government.
  1 27    b.  When training or operating pursuant to a federal
  1 28 mission number, members of the civil air patrol shall be
  1 29 considered federal employees for the purposes of tort claims
  1 30 arising from the performance of the mission or any actions
  1 31 incident to the performance of the mission.
  1 32    4.  If an operation or mission of the civil air patrol is
  1 33 not granted federal mission status and is not assigned an
  1 34 accompanying federal mission number, the following shall
  1 35 apply:
  2  1    a.  Operations and administration of the civil air patrol
  2  2 relating to missions not qualifying for federal mission status
  2  3 shall be funded by the statefrom moneys appropriated to the
  2  4 homeland security and emergency management division of the
  2  5 department of public defense for that purpose.
  2  6    b.  When performing a mission that does not qualify for
  2  7 federal mission status, members of the civil air patrol shall
  2  8 be considered state employees for purposes of the Iowa tort
  2  9 claims Act, as provided in chapter 669, and for purposes of
  2 10 workers' compensation, as provided in chapter 85.