Should CAP Chaplains be able to recruit CAP members to their faith?

[RiverAux]

While doing some investigating regarding CG Aux chaplain/lay leader issues, I happened to be looking through the CAP Chaplain Code of ethics in CAPR 265-2 and came across this:

I will not proselytize from other religious bodies, but I retain the right to evangelize those who are non affiliated.

I was quite surprised to see that CAP regulations apparently allow CAP Chaplains to attempt to recruit non-affiliated CAP members to their faiths.  I had thought that chaplains weren't supposed to proselytize at all. 

While I don't have a major problem with CAP having a Chaplain program, it should be restricted to ministering to those who are interested and Chaplains should be strictly prohibited from attempting to recruit anyone to their faith -- whether they are currently affiliated with a church or not. 

Why should those who are not in a church be subject to any form of proselytizing while on CAP duty?  Don't they have the same rights as those who are already in a church to be left alone in this area of belief?

Thoughts?

[AngelWings]

If by recruit, you mean force, then no. If you mean recruit, has in maybe you should stop this religons church or that religons church, than sure. You need two people to recruit, the recruiter and the recruitee. I can't see why somebody couldn't say "No, sir/ma'am". If I remember, we do have the Freedom Of Speech still, and I am positive CAP regulations do not say you cannot say no to a chaplain. I am sure 12-21 year olds in our organization would ask their parents about religon before heading to church, considering how it does take some maturity to join CAP and attend the meetings. I have faith in my fellow cadets, no pun intended.

[Eclipse]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

[RiverAux]

And anyone in favor of the current regulation or who would like to expand it to allow CAP chaplains to recruit all members to their faith, please think about this:

What is the difference between a CAP Chaplain approaching a senior member during a CAP meeting while in CAP uniform and asking them to consider becoming a Catholic (for example) and a CAP squadron commander approaching a CAP senior member during a CAP meeting while in CAP uniform and asking that senior member to vote for Governor Joe Democrat or for Mike Republican for Senate? 

If it is inappropriate to ask people to vote for certain people it is just as inappropriate to recruit people to a particular faith. 

Sure, you can always say no, but that doesn't make it right to ask.

[AngelWings]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

What is wrong with trying? IIRC, a military recruiter who was also a squadron commander might not only fullfill the requirements for the position, but might also say "Hey, I think you should join the US [insert service name], young lad" to a cadet sometime. He is there to be the squadron commander, not recruit people into the military. I think you are not seeing that people do intertwine their life into what they do, and that is what makes them them. I intertwine my experiences in CAP with JROTC. I am a C/PFC in JROTC and a member of my Battalions Fitness team and Marksmen team. Does that mean I should not try to recruit fellow members into CAP, because I am there to shoot an air rifle or do push-ups? I think not.

[Ed Bos]

What is wrong with trying?

What's wrong with trying is this:

Chaplains are in a unique position to help others when people are at their most desperate, and more vulnerable.

Chaplains are trusted people that other members approach with their most serious problems, or in their deepest grief. If the answer that the Buddhist chaplain always comes back with is "things will be better if you become a Buddhist," Then there's something seriously wrong with that situation. Chaplains must refrain from proselytizing (recruiting) in these situations because of the potential for taking advantage of people who are vulnerable.

Note: not hating on the Buddhist chaplains out there, just making an example. I truly believe that there's less potential for a Buddhist chaplain to do such a thing, than others, so I thought they'd be a safe illustration in this case.

[EMT-83]

I can imagine that chaplains do a delicate balancing act, where they have a duty to perform but can't overstep their boundaries.

I think that "recruit" is the wrong word. If the chaplain, in the course of performing his duties, becomes aware that a member is seeking a house of worship, of course he should extend an invitation.

[Ed Bos]

I can imagine that chaplains do a delicate balancing act, where they have a duty to perform but can't overstep their boundaries.

I absolutly agree, which is why I assume the requirements to serve as a chaplain are so stringent.

I think that "recruit" is the wrong word. If the chaplain, in the course of performing his duties, becomes aware that a member is seeking a house of worship, of course he should extend an invitation.

Proselytize is more closely related to "recruiting" than the supportive guidance you seem to be indicating in your example. If someone asks for specific support and receive specific guidance, I am sure that's not what people mean by "proselytizing."

[coudano]

First off, trying to "convert" people to your religion (like getting more conversions than the other team is how your team wins) is kind of stupid, right up front.

That said, there is nothing at all prohibiting say, one cadet from asking his friend (another cadet) "hey, you wanna go to church with me on Sunday?"  Even if that happens during swing time at a CAP meeting, in uniform, I have no problem there.  No more than a cadet saying "hey you wanna go to my RC Airplane flying club on sunday" or whatever.

Why should it be no big deal for two non-chaplain members,
yet the ordained minister is restricted from doing the same thing?

Chaplains are in a position of trust and care specifically *BECAUSE* of their religious affiliation (and the training that -should have- (but didn't necessarily) gone along with it).  From a religious point of view, many people turn to religion, and religious leaders for counsel and advice, especially in times of difficulty.  Chaplains (pastors, priests, etc) are there to turn to in those times.  It's actually their full time profession.  Ministry is, by definition, the meeting of people's needs.  IF someone comes to a chaplain in a time of difficulty, and that chaplain has helped them in a way, that they decide to pursue faith in that chaplain's church, that *IS* prosetylization in effect, even if that's not quite how you often think about it.  Whether the person helped was of a different faith or no faith in particular.  Ministers minister, to meet the felt needs of people, in order to address their perhaps unperceived spiritual needs later.  That is (round about) prosetylization.

More often you think of the bible beating, soap box preaching, tshirt wearing, tract handing out, evangelical protestant christians.  And I don't think *anyone* should do THAT, including the people who do it (certainly not a chaplain, who probably ought to know better).  I know athiests and buddhists that are *FAR* more effective 'evangelists' than that crowd, without all the in your face jumping and shouting and gnashing of teeth.

[Hardshell Clam]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

So as long as no one is "forced" to "become religious"  (for lack of a better term and for brevity), I see no issue as long as they stay on the right side of the regulations. 

[Ed Bos]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

That's a gross misunderstanding of what a chaplain's role is.

A chaplain's mission is to see to the spiritual and emotional needs of their groups' personnel. Included in this number would be an atheist who is grieving the loss of a spouse. The chaplain is there to provide counsel and guidance, not to offer them solace via an invitation to their church.

[cap235629]

in a word....

NO

however if approached with questions an invitation to meet outside CAP would be ok

[Ed Bos]

First off, trying to "convert" people to your religion (like getting more conversions than the other team is how your team wins) is kind of stupid, right up front.

Agreed.

That said, there is nothing at all prohibiting say, one cadet from asking his friend (another cadet) "hey, you wanna go to church with me on Sunday?"  Even if that happens during swing time at a CAP meeting, in uniform, I have no problem there.  No more than a cadet saying "hey you wanna go to my RC Airplane flying club on sunday" or whatever.

Dubious... I don't think that belongs at any CAP meeting or activity, since it's clearly a sensitive issue and doesn't relate to the mission-at-hand. Whether these cadets discuss it before or after the meeting is another story, but I'm sure their parents would want to have input in that sort of discussion.

Chaplains are in a position of trust and care specifically *BECAUSE* of their religious affiliation (and the training that -should have- (but didn't necessarily) gone along with it).  From a religious point of view, many people turn to religion, and religious leaders for counsel and advice, especially in times of difficulty.  Chaplains (pastors, priests, etc) are there to turn to in those times.  It's actually their full time profession.  Ministry is, by definition, the meeting of people's needs.  IF someone comes to a chaplain in a time of difficulty, and that chaplain has helped them in a way, that they decide to pursue faith in that chaplain's church, that *IS* prosetylization in effect, even if that's not quite how you often think about it.  Whether the person helped was of a different faith or no faith in particular.  Ministers minister, to meet the felt needs of people, in order to address their perhaps unperceived spiritual needs later.  That is (round about) prosetylization.

Chaplains are in that position of trust and responsibility because their professional and personal choices have made them the SME on spiritual and emotional issues. I've seen a Humanist Chaplain who does a wonderful job ministering to the people who seek him out, and he is not a religious person in the least.

Chaplains must respect the differing religions and choice to follow no religion, that are all represented by CAP members. Their charge is a delicate one, and overstepping that bound can be problematic, to put it mildly.

Bottom line, chaplains are should not advocate one religion over another. That's what proselytization is.

[lordmonar]

It is the two edged sword.

Chaplains should be there for all faiths (and non faiths).

But they have a right to practice their faith as they see it.....so they may have a religious duty to recruit.

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

AS far as should the recruit.......it is yes......if you have chaplains they must be able to recruit....or you are stomping on their rights and duties as chaplains......So.....you need to add another box to your voting....."should we have chaplains at all?"

That's my vote.

PS....to all you Chaplains out there...I think that for the most part you are a great bunch of guys who do a lot of good work......my personal opinon about the seperation of church and state (and CAP and Church) does not a statement about the job you guys do and my admoration for your work.

[RiverAux]

If it is the duty of Republicans to recruit more Republicans is CAP obligated to let them do it on CAP time while in CAP uniform?  No.

[lordmonar]

If it is the duty of Republicans to recruit more Republicans is CAP obligated to let them do it on CAP time while in CAP uniform?  No.

Political freedom is not the same a religious freedom.

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

Also....there is a difference between a random member of CAP who is also a republican and a CHAPLAIN in CAP who's job is to practice his religion.

Like I said.....I would like to avoid the problem altogether by eliminating the chaplain duty position.

[titanII]

So what is the exact role of Chaplains, especially among diverse CAP members and cadets? I've always been a bit confused about this. I know in the military, Chaplains perform services, last rites, etc. But what about in CAP? I guess I'm looking for specific examples.
For example, how would a Chaplain of one religion guide a member of a completely different religion?

Also, couldn't a Chaplain be somebody completely not related to a certain religion, yet an experienced person in that  faculty (guidance), like a psychiatrist or a guidance counselor?

[RiverAux]

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

How do you figure?  Are we not free to have Chaplains but explicitly prohibit them from proselytizing CAP members?  How would that get us sued?  Our current regulation already halfway prohibits it, so why couldn't we go all the way? 

Just because someone's religion says that it is their duty to recruit new members doesn't mean that CAP has to allow it to happen while in CAP uniform.  We have made the choice to let them attempt to recruit those who aren't already religiously affiliated, but we are not required to do so. 

[Ed Bos]

....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

Wait... What? Where does the ACLU enter into this conversation at all?

[Darkside1]

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

That seems decidedly unfair that "undecideds" are not offered the same protection as members of certain "flocks".

[DBlair]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

+1

[Hardshell Clam]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

That's a gross misunderstanding of what a chaplain's role is.

A chaplain's mission is to see to the spiritual and emotional needs of their groups' personnel. Included in this number would be an atheist who is grieving the loss of a spouse. The chaplain is there to provide counsel and guidance, not to offer them solace via an invitation to their church.

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

[Ed Bos]

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

Respectfully, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not offering an opinion, I'm stating a fact. This isn't an "interpretation" of the regulation.

According to the pertinent regulation:

2. Mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.
a. The free exercise of religion is a constitutional right of all US citizens. Civil Air Patrol provides opportunities for CAP members to exercise this right through the Chaplain Corps and by allocating required resources to accomplish the Chaplain Corps mission.
b. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps promotes moral leadership, spiritual care, and character development throughout the CAP senior member and cadet programs.
c. Responding to emergencies is a critical aspect of the CAP Chaplain Corps mission. As professional clergy, CAP chaplains prepare to respond to Civil Air Patrol, USAF, and community emergencies, such as disasters, aircraft accidents, or acts of terrorism.

Not of the chaplain Corps' stated mission includes them having to

"recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

Because you are an Inspector General, I think it's very important that you understand this point. Chaplain's must carry out their duties without preaching, without recruiting, without pressure, and with respect for the spiritual decisions of those they minister to.

[Hardshell Clam]

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

Respectfully, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not offering an opinion, I'm stating a fact. This isn't an "interpretation" of the regulation.

According to the pertinent regulation:

2. Mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.
a. The free exercise of religion is a constitutional right of all US citizens. Civil Air Patrol provides opportunities for CAP members to exercise this right through the Chaplain Corps and by allocating required resources to accomplish the Chaplain Corps mission.
b. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps promotes moral leadership, spiritual care, and character development throughout the CAP senior member and cadet programs.
c. Responding to emergencies is a critical aspect of the CAP Chaplain Corps mission. As professional clergy, CAP chaplains prepare to respond to Civil Air Patrol, USAF, and community emergencies, such as disasters, aircraft accidents, or acts of terrorism.

Not of the chaplain Corps' stated mission includes them having to

"recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

Because you are an Inspector General, I think it's very important that you understand this point. Chaplain's must carry out their duties without preaching, without recruiting, without pressure, and with respect for the spiritual decisions of those they minister to.

I understand your point and again as I stated: As long as they follow the regulations, there should be no problems.

And as you brought it up; As an IG if called upon to look into an issue, I would provide an unbiased professional report to the command authority, seeking legal guidance as needed, regardless of any personal feelings I may have about the issue, religious or otherwise.

[Chaplaindon]

Some thoughts from a retired CAP chaplain ...

In many ways this discussion mirrors an earlier issue (and one that, although I'm now retired, I suppose continues in our armed forces), that of ministry in a pluralistic society.

Chaplains have a dual role both of which involve protecting the religious freedoms of all, including those who exercise the freedom NOT to believe or to practice a particular faith, AND ministering to the spiritual, moral, and faith needs of all personnel, not only their own faith group (but not excluding their faith or denominational-specifc roles either). Part of that latter role can include evangelical sermons and/or devotionals and/or Sunday School lessons provided to those who freely CHOOSE to participate.

As to the former role, a chaplain must respect the pluralistic nature of their (unique) ministry. A chaplain can be called upon to minister to all persons (and to respect the refusal of others). I have been blessed to have ministered to a great many people of a myriad of faiths while I was an active chaplain, from devout Christian, to self-avowed "pagan." At the same time, she/he is not required to act in a manner that is against her/his faith tennets (e.g. a Roman Catholic chaplain cannot be required to serve Holy Communion to non-practicing Catholics in order to be a CAP chaplain, nor a Jewish Chaplain to violate Sabbath or dietary laws).

One visible way this dual role can be seen is in the way a chaplain prays. If I was the senior chaplain (by grade) at a SAREX and was asked to lead a prayer for, say, safety at the start of the day's sorties, that prayer SHOULD be both inclusive and respectful of the multitude of faith traditions present. Let's face it, not everyone wants to be there at that moment, nor all want to be prayed for/to/about, and this must be respected. You are saying a prayer for everyone. That would be a secular setting. If the senior chaplain were Buddhist, Muslim, or Jewish, the same expectation would be there. They pray for all. One way I made that distinction was to pray "in Your blessed and holy Name" rather than "in Jesus' Name."

On the other hand ... within a clearly designated religious setting (worship service, or Sunday School, or evening devotional), a chaplain is free to be faith specific (hence we've had Roman Catholic Mass AND a Protestant Holy Communion worship service (where I boldly and unapologetically prayed "in Jesus' Name" -consistent with CAPRs and the USAF regs and instructions), AND a Jewish Sabbath service during the same cadet encampment. Interestingly enough, we had a very large number of Christian cadets ELECT to attend the Jewish service in addition to their own specific Christian service, and they were welcomed ... as they should be.

If we allow chaplains to preach and teach doctrine specific to their faith (and the regulations both CAP and USAF do) then we must expect that, somewhere along the line, several people, at least, will be converted to a given faith. In fact, my USAF chaplain kit came with a big box of extras including a plastic sheet with instructions on using it for a baptismal. And military chapels have baptismal fonts as well. If the military didn't want chaplains "recruiting" (a very poor choice of verb ... perhaps one could say "offering an invitation") there wouldn't be baptismals for Christians.

Also, don't forget, unlike all other specialties in CAP, ONLY the non-waiver chaplains are required to meet the exact same educational requirements and endorsements as their USAF counterparts. The fact that they wear the USAF chaplain's badge on their CAP uniform reflects this unique status.

Also, you might be interested to know that CAPR 265-1 (E), §A, ¶2b, (p. 1): "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under the conditions that the Secretary deems appropriate." The same paragraph adds, "In anticipation of this requirement the CAP Chaplain Service will ... provide appropriate training to prepare [CAP chaplains] for domestic, non-combat ministries." CAPR 265-2, §A, ¶2 (p. 1) states that CAP Chaplains "may be called upon to supplement the resources of the USAF Chaplain Service."

So if you try to restrict the actions of "CAP chaplains" you may well affect their potential usefulness to the USAF and the DoD.

[titanII]

Wow, great post Chaplaindon!  :clap: Thanks for the info! 

[RiverAux]

There is a big difference between a Chaplain leading a religious service (in which of course they are free to talk about their faith in particular) and being able to proselytize in non-religious settings in a CAP context.  And if a CAP member specifically approaches a Chaplain to ask them about their particular faith, I've got absolutely no problem with that Chaplain answering back and I doubt many others would.

However, if the intent of the regulation in question was to restrict proselytizing to those specific situations, then it most certainly needs revision to reflect that. 

[♠SARKID♠]

If a member goes to a chaplain and initiates the conversation with them, yes.  Should a chaplain be able to initiate that conversation?  No.

I've had chaplains, both in and out of CAP, bring up the issue.  I see them initiating the conversation as being akin to harassment.

[lordmonar]

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

How do you figure?  Are we not free to have Chaplains but explicitly prohibit them from proselytizing CAP members?  How would that get us sued?  Our current regulation already halfway prohibits it, so why couldn't we go all the way? 

Just because someone's religion says that it is their duty to recruit new members doesn't mean that CAP has to allow it to happen while in CAP uniform.  We have made the choice to let them attempt to recruit those who aren't already religiously affiliated, but we are not required to do so.

Or regulations right now allow for chaplains.....so you have to take the fact that they MAY.....I SAY AGAIN.....may have a religous duty to spread the word....along with their more non-denominational duties.

If you asked them to NOT do their duty as they see fit.....then you run the gauntlet of picking and chooseing the "good" religions....and that is where you open CAP up for a law suit.

For the most part....I don't see any of this in the CAP chaplains that I have met......so this is mostly an achidemic argument for me.

[lordmonar]

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

That seems decidedly unfair that "undecideds" are not offered the same protection as members of certain "flocks".

+1

But it's the way the military wrote the regulations.

[Jerry Jacobs]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

[♠SARKID♠]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

My blood boiled at that for a bit.

I recently took half of a CISM course.  Once the introductions were done I realized the class was about 85-90% priests.  The role play (which would have been bad enough anyway) was so dripping with "find Jesus" that I couldn't participate (and afterwards went to Hooters to get re-deviated  ).  I didn't go back for the second day.

[RiverAux]

If you asked them to NOT do their duty as they see fit.....then you run the gauntlet of picking and chooseing the "good" religions....and that is where you open CAP up for a law suit.

If the regs say that no chaplain can proselytize, then no one is being specifically picked as "good" or "bad", so no problem. 

[Hardshell Clam]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.  

[Hardshell Clam]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

My blood boiled at that for a bit.

I recently took half of a CISM course.  Once the introductions were done I realized the class was about 85-90% priests.  The role play (which would have been bad enough anyway) was so dripping with "find Jesus" that I couldn't participate (and afterwards went to Hooters to get re-deviated  ).  I didn't go back for the second day.

I find this disturbing and maybe the best thing for the CISM program.

[Chappie]

Wow, great post Chaplaindon!  :clap: Thanks for the info! 

Concurs with Chaplaindon's post.

[NIN]

WIWAC, my unit's chaplain was a pretty heavy-duty Baptist minister. I think if you look up "fiery  Baptist" in the dictionary, there is a photo of him. 

Was Moral Leadership pretty strongly slanted toward his faith? Yeah.  At 14 did I know any better than to bow my head and pray when the chaplain said to?  Nope. He was a Major. I was a C/AB.  The Major says "Bow your head" you @#$% well bow your head.

Now, my buddy sitting next to me was looking around like a country-boy in New York City during all this, once, and I said "Psst. Dude, bow your head." And he said "[expletive deleted] that."  I was shocked, but in retrospect, he was right. My friend was not a Baptist, and as a matter of fact followed no specific religion. He didn't need to bow his head at the chaplain's behest any more than he needed to take communion if it were offered.  And for anybody to demand/require him to do that would have been wrong.

I got the evil eye recently from someone because I remained standing, with my hands respectfully clasped in front of me, head unbowed, during a chaplain's invocation.  This person sought me out afterwards and attempted to make me feel like I should have been more pious or something.  After listening to him yammer for a minute, I said "Wait, since according to you, everbody's head should have been bowed, what were _YOU_ doing looking around, hmmm?" That shut him right up.

As a unit commander, if a chaplain at my unit were to proselytize during Moral Leadership, I'd have a conversation with him.  Chaplains and MLOs are there to provide ethical education and character development instruction to the troops, not be missionaries for their respective faiths, at least within the context of their participation in the ML/CD aspects of the Cadet Program.

Now, if your chaplain is talking to the troops in the mess hall during lunch and encouraging participation in Sunday services, well, thats borderline, but I'd be alright with it overall, as long as they're not strong-arming people into attendance.

(Sidebar to chaplains at encampments: The same chaplain who had been my unit's chaplain was at an encampment one year where I was the training officer. I poke my head into the base theater as part of "making sure that training is happening," only to encounter the God Squad showing a 16mm film episode of the TV series "Insight" featuring Maureen McCormick [Marcia from the Brady Bunch] and the high school football team. I just happen to bop thru the door of the theater at essentially the exact wrong time.  Oh boy. I booked back to the office and said to the Commandant of Cadets "We might need to have the chaplains preview for us their training materials from now on.."   Nobody ever said anything, but geez..)

[Chappie]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The problem is -- as I see it -- not one of a CAP member/member of the military, ect. approaching the chaplain and inquiring/seeking...but where the chaplain uses a setting such as a squadron meeting/group formation, etc. as a place to impose his/her beliefs.  A chaplain can and does perform a chapel service where that is permitted...but Character Development sessions, squadron meetings, etc aren't to be the forum for evangelizing/proselytizing.   When I served as an encampment chaplain (or where religious services needed to be offered on the week-ends), I always found the places of worship for other faith groups, published the service times and provided transportation.

[Hawk200]

Seems to me like a lot of the "tolerance" being demanded is a one way street, as if a chaplain can't speak of his faith, but they must respect anothers non-religious beliefs when they are approached.

If you approach a chaplain for some type of counseling, be prepared for their views. If you don't believe in anything, you really should not be speaking to a chaplain. Almost seems like people are looking to be offended so they can gripe about it.

Chaplains are NOT counselors in the manner that a lot of people seem to think. Education and training specific to counseling is quite different. Don't expect them to be something they are not, and then get offended when it doesn't live up to your expectations.

If statements such as "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" bother you, then don't go to them in the future. Their beliefs are not compatible with yours. I don't understand why an atheist would even approach a chaplain in the first place. Yes, the statement seems a little insensitive, but it's still what they believe. It just doesn't seem to work. It's like talking to a doctor about careers when you don't like hospitals or the idea of being in the medical field.

[Eclipse]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he
would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged.

Seems to me like a lot of the "tolerance" being demanded is a one way street, as if a chaplain can't speak of his faith, but they must respect anothers non-religious beliefs when they are approached.

If you approach a chaplain for some type of counseling, be prepared for their views. If you don't believe in anything, you really should not be speaking to a chaplain. Almost seems like people are looking to be offended so they can gripe about it.

Sorry, not in a CAP context, where they are there to serve everyone in a secular manner, not provide advice which requires faith to be of use.

Frankly, this is the reason more and more commanders are reluctant to appoint Chaplains, because by their very nature they exert an authority that
can add weight to their beliefs, and provides them with a pulpit (so to speak), should they choose to abuse their position.  This is, especially, an issue
with cadets.  Were I a parent and found out that a CAP Chaplain (or anyone else for that matter), was attempting to recruit or minister to one of my children without my knowledge, my reaction would be somewhat "visceral".

CAP has a very specific mission, and it doesn't include religious guidance, legal advice or services, or medical advice or services, and those things should simply be left at home and off the table.

I have worked with at least one Chaplain who "got it", who is an asset to CAP in the highest meaning of that term.  I have also worked with more than one who...didn't.  Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?

[AngelWings]

IMHO, I expect a chaplain to be seeking to invite people to practice their faith, within reason. If I were approached by a chaplain who asked me to attend a local church meeting or whatever you call it, I'd think nothing of it. If I were going through a rough time and a chaplain kept actively approaching me with lectures about faith and kept trying to invite me to their religon, after I have no, I'd use my freedom of speech to tell them to shove their freedom of religon in a place where the sun don't shine (of course in a very respectful manner as not to offend anyone and deviate from CAP and USAF core values and my personal values). In life, there is appropiate times to do things. If at a moral leadership meeting your chaplain sees you are somewhat interested in faith, than I see no problem with asking. Has a christian, I'd be offended if I saw someone who is supposed to have a high place in my faith being disrepectful to ANYONE when it comes towards their beliefs, and I strongly believe that faith should not be forced down someones throat, rather taken in by the person.

[Eclipse]

CAP no longer holds "Moral Leadership" sessions - we need to get this term out of our lexicon.

[Chappie]

I have worked with at least one Chaplain who "got it", who is an asset to CAP in the highest meaning of that term.  I have also worked with more than one who...didn't.  Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?

I would respectfully disagree with the observation that "Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?"   Church has its culture and CAP has its culture.  Church has its structure and CAP has its structure.  One of the concerns that this thread raised (and it is an issue that Wing and Region Chaplains deal with on occasion) is how a chaplain is to function within CAP.  If one is having a problem with a CAP Chaplain -- one who is a member and has received training (which by the way, the chaplain corps has been making huge strives in this area since 2007 -- Chaplains are now required to take SLS and CLC and are promoted the same as CAP Senior Members...no longer TIG), imagine what it would be like if a local pastor/priest/rabbi/iman shows up to a local squadron to offer assistance.  Think there are problems/concerns/issues now??   I came into CAP from a local church setting (but fortunately had some LE Chaplain experience) and I can attest that serving in CAP demands a knowledge of the program that entails participation in CAP events/activities/missions/Senior Member Professional Development Training Program.  I believe in the following corollary that states: "All chaplains should be pastors...but not all pastors can be chaplains".   The term "pastor" there is used in the broad sense of being able to provide care for others.  Unfortunately some pastors can't see beyond the four walls of their local church/denomination and be able to serve the needs of CAP members as chaplains.  We are fortunate to have those who do "get it" and provide excellent service to our members.  I have seen a turn in recent years of newer chaplains who are "getting it" as they participate in the program.   Sadly, there are are still some are content to have earned their grade by simply breathing for a certain number of years and still do not have a clue about the organization because of their limited participation.  The appointment as a Chaplain within the organization also ensures credibility to person (academic work/ecclesiastical endorsement -- same DoD requirements as active/reserve/guard chaplains -- CAP does grant a waiver of the Master's degree provided there is 5 years of pastoral ministry) and accountability.  Chaplains do serve as assigned members of the Commander's staff at all levels of CAP.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".


Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

[Eclipse]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".

Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

If he acted as indicated, he either was not trained, or ignored his training for both CISM and Chaplain, pick one.

[Jerry Jacobs]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".

Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

If he acted as indicated, he either was not trained, or ignored his training for both CISM and Chaplain, pick one.

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

[Chappie]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

In addition, Chaplains have the privilege of clergy-penitent confidentiality.

[Hardshell Clam]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

In addition, Chaplains have the privilege of clergy-penitent confidentiality.

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

[Eclipse]

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

Not an option.  We all know exactly what he should have done, whether the story is true, or just an example.

[Eclipse]

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

We're not talking about what a member of clergy might do outside CAP.  Internal to the organization there is no assumption of confidentiality in regards to
allegations of abuse or violation of regulations.

Per CAPR 265-1
a. Chaplains and CDIs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy, paragraph 1. 

[Hardshell Clam]

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

Not an option.  We all know exactly what he should have done, whether the story is true, or just an example.

Sorry, we all do not know and I venture to say certainly no average lay person or unit commander is well enough informed to make that determination.  We as lay persons can only offer our opinions.

[Hardshell Clam]

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

We're not talking about what a member of clergy might do outside CAP.  Internal to the organization there is no assumption of confidentiality in regards to
allegations of abuse or violation of regulations.

Per CAPR 265-1
a. Chaplains and CDIs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy, paragraph 1. 

That is a given, as I understand it, outside clergy are required under state laws to do the same.

[AngelWings]

This is definately a two sided thing where there is no true resolution, mainly because we are aiming away from talking about the original subject. How about I skip to how this is going to end to save everyones time. There is going to be two sides (has expected from the OP's question did include two sides), a I think it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP, and the no, it is not ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP. The arguement for the it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings is based on (if I am not misinterpreting posts in favor of it) how it second nature for a chaplain due to it being second nature. The opposing side is saying that it is not ok due to their position being only to serve the religous needs of the people they are embedded with (lack of better words) and that they are in a position that can unfairly pursuade people. There is no black or white answer to the matter, and a fair answer is not going to be made because neither side is willing to compromise. If you disagree with what I just wrote, keep argueing. We just are heading into the bottomless pit known to CAPTalkinians to be unrecoverable from if not caught early enough.

[lordmonar]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

Well....in the USAF they have a Life Skills Center (read Mental Health) that have on call counselors...and sick call hours.

[Hardshell Clam]

This is definately a two sided thing where there is no true resolution, mainly because we are aiming away from talking about the original subject. How about I skip to how this is going to end to save everyones time. There is going to be two sides (has expected from the OP's question did include two sides), a I think it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP, and the no, it is not ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP. The arguement for the it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings is based on (if I am not misinterpreting posts in favor of it) how it second nature for a chaplain due to it being second nature. The opposing side is saying that it is not ok due to their position being only to serve the religous needs of the people they are embedded with (lack of better words) and that they are in a position that can unfairly pursuade people. There is no black or white answer to the matter, and a fair answer is not going to be made because neither side is willing to compromise. If you disagree with what I just wrote, keep argueing. We just are heading into the bottomless pit known to CAPTalkinians to be unrecoverable from if not caught early enough.

Indeed, and I stand by my previous statement: As long as our chaplains stay on the correct side of the regulations, they are fine.

[Ed Bos]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The problem is -- as I see it -- not one of a CAP member/member of the military, ect. approaching the chaplain and inquiring/seeking...but where the chaplain uses a setting such as a squadron meeting/group formation, etc. as a place to impose his/her beliefs.  A chaplain can and does perform a chapel service where that is permitted...but Character Development sessions, squadron meetings, etc aren't to be the forum for evangelizing/proselytizing.   When I served as an encampment chaplain (or where religious services needed to be offered on the week-ends), I always found the places of worship for other faith groups, published the service times and provided transportation.

+1

[RiverAux]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

Unfortunately, under current CAP regulation it was perfectly ok for the Chaplain  to make such an effort to convert someone not currently aligned with another faith.  So, the Chaplain was doing what was legal.

Obviously, I don't think it should be. 

[Chappie]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

Unfortunately, under current CAP regulation it was perfectly ok for the Chaplain  to make such an effort to convert someone not currently aligned with another faith.  So, the Chaplain was doing what was legal.

Obviously, I don't think it should be.

As a Chaplain, to ask a question regarding one's faith is an useful way to get an idea of the person's background/experience, etc in order that you can find common ground...to quote a line from the "Christmas Story": "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics; my father was an Oldsmobile man."   It's good to know that sometimes you have an "Oldsmobile" person that you are conversing with.   But once that is established to begin pushing your viewpoint or religious preference or seeking to convert someone is a bit overline.  They are coming to seek assistance.   I seek to assist not persuade.  But that is my opinion and the way I operate. 

[RiverAux]

As you know, Chaplains are expected to ask about members' faiths (though members are not obligated to respond) and I don't consider that proselytizing. 

[Al Sayre]

I think the real issue is the way the Chaplain puts forth the invitation.

OK:  "If you'd like to attend my regular church services, we meet at XXXX on Sunday mornings at YYYY Church" 

Not OK:  "You really need to put (pick your Deity) in your life!  I hold services at XXXX on Sunday mornings at YYYY Church, and I strongly recommend you start attending my services. ..."