Class B drivers' license regulation

[Major Lord]

Does anyone have know where the Reg or policy letter is requiring CAWG personnel to hold a Class B drivers license is? I can't seem to find it.

Major Lord

[Mark_Wheeler]

A class B isn't needed in general, just for anything over 9 passengers as per the Calif. Vehicle Code. Note thats any vehicle designed to hold over 9, so you can't just take the seats out of it to make it legal.

Mark

[a2capt]

*when driven for hire, or for a non-profit operation.

If the Brady Bunchy has a 12 passenger van, they can drive it. Though some might argue that is also a non-profit operation ;-)

We get snared in the non-profit part, by the letter of the vehicle code. The vehicle code is nothing new, that we have generally been operating under a presumed waiver or looking the other way, it seems it was brought to the light early last year as an urgency.

[JK657]

There is a difference between Class B Commercial and Class B Non-Commercial. The attached link lists the restrictions of each class:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm

[PHall]

Does anyone have know where the Reg or policy letter is requiring CAWG personnel to hold a Class B drivers license is? I can't seem to find it.

Major Lord

Yeah, it's called the "California Vehicle Code", you may have heard of it.

Short story edition, any vehicle designed to seat more then 10 people, including the driver, requires a Class B licence to operate it if it belongs to a non-profit organization.
The only exemption is for Van Pool vehicles.

Our Wing Commander, being a serving Police Officer, feels rather strongly that CAP should obey the law.

[MO10]

Playing Devil's advocate:  Depending upon interpretation corporate vehicles may also be considered government vehicles.  Some states may have exemptions for government vehicles which may include the requirement for license plates and even the licensing of the driver.

[Ed Bos]

I was discussing this topic with some folks up here when I first heard about it a few months ago.

Can anyone tell me why a member of CAWG would tell someone from another wing that they could not use their Non-California drivers license in California?

This requirement only applies to drivers licensed in that state, isn't that right?

As an example, since I can legally drive a 12-passenger van across 48 other states and Canada to get to California, I can still drive that vehicle in California, no?

[PHall]

I was discussing this topic with some folks up here when I first heard about it a few months ago.

Can anyone tell me why a member of CAWG would tell someone from another wing that they could not use their Non-California drivers license in California?

This requirement only applies to drivers licensed in that state, isn't that right?

As an example, since I can legally drive a 12-passenger van across 48 other states and Canada to get to California, I can still drive that vehicle in California, no?

Off the top of my head, no. But you would be well advised to check with a California Police Officer and get an "offical" reading on that.
The rule I was taught was that you're governed by the laws of the state that you're in, right now.

[Major Lord]

Phil, et al,

I am interested in the actual form of the imposition of Class B driver's Licenses on CAWG members, not the justifications per se. Letter? Smoke signals? Memorandum? Where is it published, or is it just an oral tradition?

Major Lord

[ßτε]

California V C Section 233

California V C Section 12804.9 (b) (2) (C)

Email from CAWG/CC to unit CCs

Commanders,

It is YOUR job to educate the membership on this issue. The information provided by Maj Hoebink is the exact same information I provide at the very start of the Class B issue. As a 26 year California law enforcement officer, I was dismayed at how many members seemed to express they knew the law better than me.

I now direct that the conversation over Class B requirements and 15 PAX vans come to a close. We have more pressing issues to deal with. The commanders, lawyers, law enforcement officers and transportation professionals have all looked at this issue and come to the exact, same concussion; Class B licensure is required for our 10+ PAX vehicles, modified or not. 

Thanks,

Ken

Kenneth W. Parris, Colonel, CAP
Commander, California Wing
Civil Air Patrol, US Air Force Auxiliary

[Flying Pig]

I was discussing this topic with some folks up here when I first heard about it a few months ago.

Can anyone tell me why a member of CAWG would tell someone from another wing that they could not use their Non-California drivers license in California?

This requirement only applies to drivers licensed in that state, isn't that right?

As an example, since I can legally drive a 12-passenger van across 48 other states and Canada to get to California, I can still drive that vehicle in California, no?

You are governed by the laws of your state in that case, Otherwise truckers would be limited to their states for 18 wheelers. Tour buses would be a prime example too. In CA you must apply for a CA drivers license with 10 days after establishing residency.  So in CA if you came down for a CAP activity legally you could drive the passenger van as far as the cops are concerned but CAP probably wouldnt allow it

[SarDragon]

I have this email, sent to all@cawg.cap.gov, on Tue 3/23/2010 4:41 PM:

Attention All California Wing Members:

Upon conducting some research, it was learned that our CAP vans "designed" to carry more than ten persons, even when the seats have been removed to prevent carrying more than 10 persons, requires a California DMV Class B License to operate.  Effective immediately, all CAWG vans designed to carry more than 10 persons is "grounded" and may not be operated by any CAP member unless the driver has a valid CAP Operator's Permit AND a valid California DMV Class B License.  Failure to comply with this directive may be a violation of state law, resulting in fines and other penalties for the operator.

The CAWG command and legal staff are continuing to work this issue and we will advise you when we have any additional information.
Thanks,

Ken
Kenneth W. Parris, Colonel, CAP
Commander, California Wing
Civil Air Patrol

[a2capt]

The gist of it is- the vehicle code says anyone operating a vehicle that is designed to carry 10 or more persons, for a commercial purpose, or for a non-profit organization (since many non-profits mirror commercial entities in actions) that the operator must posses a Class B commercial license.

If you are the Brady Bunch, you can drive your van full of kids. As long as it's not larger than a 16 passenger vehicle, in which case you need the license anyway.

The vehicle code states it. It's not anything new.

Perhaps there was a presumed, assumed, or whatever waiver that we have been operating under and someone realized that it's not.. or someone got questioned about it, who knows.

The part that we get stung under is the non-profit part.

According to GEICO, they don't care that you have a Class B license, it does nothing to your rate. I understand that any point penalties are doubled and stay on longer. You'll need a medical examination that conforms to the description set forth that is explained on this form: http://dmv.ca.gov/forms/dl/dl51.pdf, http://dmv.ca.gov/forms/dl/dl51.htm

An FAA, FHA,  are acceptable as is for the requirement, as well as any others that contain the same data/are based on the at least the same stuff covered.

All commercial drivers must submit medical reports to the department on original applications and at least every two years thereafter. Usually, the report is on form DL 51, provided by the department. Medical forms issued by the Federal Highway Administration (FHA), and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), are also acceptable under the vehicle code. Medical reports other than the DL 51, FHA, and FAA forms are acceptable if they meet the requirement of 391.41-49 FMCSR, including a certificate, signed by an health care professional, that the driver meets the federal requirements.

So, you basically take another written test, fork over $64 bucks, plus whatever the doctor wants for that form to be filled out or your last FAA medical certificate thats 2 years old or less, and take a drive test. It's good for 5 years. CAP will give you a two year green card twice and then wince about the single year remaining, I'm sure.

[Major Lord]

Thanks, the E-mail was what I was looking for.

Major Lord

[arajca]

I was discussing this topic with some folks up here when I first heard about it a few months ago.

Can anyone tell me why a member of CAWG would tell someone from another wing that they could not use their Non-California drivers license in California?

This requirement only applies to drivers licensed in that state, isn't that right?

As an example, since I can legally drive a 12-passenger van across 48 other states and Canada to get to California, I can still drive that vehicle in California, no?

State governments are required to honor licenses issued by other states for people visiting/passing through. While you will still need to follow the local laws, your DL is acceptable for the vehicle you are driving if your state permits it. In your example, you would be able to drive the vehicle you brought in addition to any other vehicles permitted by your state for your DL class. Most states have a 30 day rule with exceptions for military personnel and students (college, typically). Staying over 30 days presumes you are moving to that state and are becoming a resident, therefore you need to get a new D/L and relicense your vehicle.

[arajca]

I wonder how he would feel about a member coming in to support an activity with a non-CA DMV class B license.

[Flying Pig]

That would be a complete CAPism if that were to be the case.  In that case, CAP would be holding its members to a standard beyond what the Vehicle Code requires.  And, there would be no legal foundation for it, other than someone thinking the CA DMV is the final answer to the worlds problems.   Basically saying "Hey all of you other states....your dirvers arent as good as ours."

[Ed Bos]

What I'm gathering is that as of right now, the CA laws prohibit CAWG residents from driving the types of vans that CAP owns. Since I hold an Alaska Class D license, I'm legal to drive that type of vehicle anywhere in the US.

AND

The CAWG/CC prohibits any CAP member who doesn't hold a California Class B from driving said van.

In this case, the Wing Commander's policy is what's prohibiting someone like me from driving a CAWG-assigned-van in that state. If I have a reason to, I'll be sure to call their Wing HQ and get clarification, or a written waiver.

Unless, that is, I'm driving an AKWG van (or any other non-CAWG CAP van). Then I'm in the clear on all counts.

[SarDragon]

What I'm gathering is that as of right now, the CA laws prohibit CAWG residents from driving the types of vans that CAP owns.

Not necessarily. IMHO, getting a CA Class B license isn't that difficult. A little time, a little money (just like the rest of CAP), and it's yours.

Since I hold an Alaska Class D license, I'm legal to drive that type of vehicle anywhere in the US.

AND

The CAWG/CC prohibits any CAP member who doesn't hold a California Class B from driving said van.

In this case, the Wing Commander's policy is what's prohibiting someone like me from driving a CAWG-assigned-van in that state. If I have a reason to, I'll be sure to call their Wing HQ and get clarification, or a written waiver.

Unless, that is, I'm driving an AKWG van (or any other non-CAWG CAP van). Then I'm in the clear on all counts.

I think that if you, or anyone else, showed up with an equivalent, or higher, license from another state, permission could be negotiated.

[PHall]

Our friends from Nevada Wing had no problem operating their 15 passenger vans at the CAWG/NVWG Encampment that was held at Camp Pendleton, CA last summer.
And we did discover that chartering a school bus and driver was actually cheaper and way more efficient then doing the CAP van swarm.
Our dining facility was 8 miles away from the encampment area.