Improved Golf Shirt

[JROB]

You know actually up until now I never noticed the yellow border. The image that I used was the one from wikipedia (go figure). These probably will stick out like a soar thumb around VG products...but I'll be comfortable.

[♠SARKID♠]

And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.

Wouldn't that agreement be between the corporation of VanguardMil and the corporation of CAP?  Why would it affect a private third party?

Because the CAP seals and logos are copyrighted and owned by CAP, and licensed exclusively to VG.  Using the seal elsewhere is a violation of copyright (ref. "Hock Shop").

[Eclipse]

Using the seal elsewhere is a violation of copyright (ref. "Hock Shop").

The Hock was a "for-profit" 3rd-party enterprise.  Use of the insignia by members is not prohibited as long as it doesn't violate CAPRs.

[SarDragon]

CAP doesn't have a copyright on this stuff. It is covered under Public Law.

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

More here.

Copyrights expire, public laws do not.

[RiverAux]

The question for the individual member is whether there is a requirement in CAP regulations that the polo shirt (or any uniform item for that matter) be purchased from a specific CAP-approved source. 

The section in 39-1 about the golf shirt doesn't specify the source for the shirts. 

1.8e discusses commercial sources, but only in reference to AF-style stuff. 

There is this in 39-1 1.8a

Distinctive CAP insignia and devices such as the CAP nameplate, CAP aeronautical and specialty badges, and other items prescribed herein may be purchased from CAPMart or from approved commercial sources.

So, one might read that to say that if you don't buy it from CAPMart (or its successor - Vanguard), then you could have problems since it wasn't from an approved source.

Unsurprisingly, that statement is sort of wishy-washy and I'm not sure I'd want to try to say that you couldn't wear the "improved golf shirt" because of it. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

I am willing to bet that statement appears to be to protect the CAP insignia.

If not from an "approved" source, we have the problem stated that that "improved shirt" has a non-regulation insignia, blue border versus yellow/gold border.

[AirDX]

It's also a violation of the allowable uses of the CAP seal listed in CAPR 900-2, para. 3.c., unless you got approval from NHQ CAP/PM.

[AngelWings]

Meanwhile in the world where no sane person is going to go after a person for this...

Just like a strict flying budget, you don't waste your fuel doing unimportant things. I am 1000% positive VG doesn't care because the costs to go after this man is more than what they'll actually benefit from doing so.

[wuzafuzz]

It's also a violation of the allowable uses of the CAP seal listed in CAPR 900-2, para. 3.c., unless you got approval from NHQ CAP/PM.

NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms.  Non-issue.  That takes us back to 39-1 and opinions about approved sources.  I tend to think 39-1 does lock us in to CAPMart or approved sources.  We can discuss the may versus or until the cows come home or the horse dies.   Individual members are probably not a party to the agreement between Vanguard and NHQ.

I didn't notice the color differences s at first, but the difference is obvious to many.  It's also missing the black detail stitching in the eagle and the embroidered stars are supposed to be blue (if you are matching the approved polo).  The incorrect seal makes the decision easy.  Wear the uniform correctly, or not at all. 

The 5.11 shirt is still great and I would love to do the same thing.  But the seal has to be perfect.  I think I would go the silk screening route and emulate the other polo shirt.  Its much easier to master and avoids unwanted attention.

[vento]

You know actually up until now I never noticed the yellow border. The image that I used was the one from wikipedia (go figure). These probably will stick out like a soar thumb around VG products...but I'll be comfortable.

Just keep the file from National HQ and use it when you are ready for ver 2.0 of your improved polo.   
It will then make all the VG polos look like sore thumbs.

[AirDX]

NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms.  Non-issue. 

Issue.  Permitted by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).

[Eclipse]

NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms.  Non-issue. 

Issue.  Permitted by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).

Vanguard doesn't "permit" anything - they are a licensee, not the organization which controls the indices.  They have been granted permission
to make certain clothing and uniform items by NHQ as per whatever agreement they signed, that doesn't negate a member's right to use insignia
for their personal, non-commercial use.

[wuzafuzz]

NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms.  Non-issue. 

Issue.  Permitted by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).

Show me where that is written. 

CAPR 900-2 doesn't explicitly permit using the seal on uniforms.  Using the seal on polos as described in 39-1 most likely was approved via 900-2 3c 11).  However it was done, it's clearly OK for CAP members to wear the polo uniform with the CAP seal.  900-2 doesn't mention Vanguard or any other source, except to prohibit commercial use or personal gain without a license. 

Whether the 39-1 statement that members MAY purchase from approved sources is interpreted as requiring purchase from those sources remains a question.  That was discussed in my previous post. 

[denverpilot]

I've got a few "official" Vanguard polos. 

They're not from the same manufacturer, not the same color blue under close scrutiny in good light, one has faded significantly, and that same one has also lost the ability for the buttons to hold closed, and the collar looks bad after roughly the same number of runs through the washer.

Not exactly a standardized product from the "official" vendor to begin with.

[Eclipse]

Not exactly a standardized product from the "official" vendor to begin with.

Nor are they standardized from the perspective of the older ones vs. the newer ones.   Mine is over 10 years old and still
pretty much like new - it's of a dry-weave fabric and has a very deep blue hue.

The give-away, for anyone who cared, would be the lack of pocket and the pen holders on the sleeve - very cool but clearly not the
same garment.  It's one thing to find an alternate / better vendor, and another to redesign the garment.

With all that said, considering the attention the golf-shirt crowd pays to uniforms in general, I doubt you'll get much notice, let alone grief.

[JROB]

considering the attention the golf-shirt crowd pays to uniforms in general, I doubt you'll get much notice, let alone grief

That's kinda what I figured.

[jimmydeanno]

They should ditch the pocket anyway.  I don't need to keep a pack of smokes in it, and modern styles of shirts would exclude putting a pocket on anyway.  So, if we want to look like we're from a relevant, modernized organization, it's probably a good idea to not look like we just walked out of 1974.

[Eclipse]

They should ditch the pocket anyway.  I don't need to keep a pack of smokes in it, and modern styles of shirts would exclude putting a pocket on anyway.  So, if we want to look like we're from a relevant, modernized organization, it's probably a good idea to not look like we just walked out of 1974.

Nothing says "hardkewl" like a loaded front pocket, especially on a golf shirt.

[SarDragon]

Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. 

[PHall]

Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. 

White is for Managers.