CAP Talk

Operations => Emergency Services & Operations => Topic started by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 09:58:02 PM

Title: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 09:58:02 PM
Last mission I was told CAP now uses numerical designators vs. alpha for Ground Teams.

IOW "This is Ground Team one" vs. "This is Ground Team Alpha".

Is this true?  Cite?

Or is the Goode Ider Fairy at work?
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Holding Pattern on September 19, 2018, 10:02:02 PM
Since 2013 we've only used numerical designations.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 10:34:26 PM
Quote from: Holding Pattern on September 19, 2018, 10:02:02 PM
Since 2013 we've only used numerical designations.

I can tell you that's not universal, but what prompted the change?
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Capmonkey on September 19, 2018, 10:35:54 PM
Ever since I've been in (since 2013), it's always been Ground Team Alpha. Just stating my experience  :)
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: sardak on September 19, 2018, 10:41:35 PM
QuoteLast mission I was told CAP now uses numerical designators vs. alpha for Ground Teams.

IOW "This is Ground Team one" vs. "This is Ground Team Alpha".

Is this true?  Cite?
Cite where the "former rule" about using alpha designators is.  Probably in the same place where it now says to use numerical designators. Just more pulling rabbits out of hats.

Mike
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: arajca on September 19, 2018, 10:52:54 PM
My experience has been Ground Team One, Two, Three, ad nauseum, since 2005.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: jeders on September 19, 2018, 11:03:23 PM
I have never once in 18 years seen, heard, or used Alpha; it's always been 1, 2, 3, etc. for me. But I think on the next SAREX that I'm GBD for I'll use colors.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 11:15:05 PM
Quote from: sardak on September 19, 2018, 10:41:35 PM
QuoteLast mission I was told CAP now uses numerical designators vs. alpha for Ground Teams.

IOW "This is Ground Team one" vs. "This is Ground Team Alpha".

Is this true?  Cite?
Cite where the "former rule" about using alpha designators is.  Probably in the same place where it now says to use numerical designators. Just more pulling rabbits out of hats.

Who said "rule"?  Was just the practice in my region and on the major National real-worlds I'd been on.

Sounds like it's a "local practice" and a wives tail by me.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: NIN on September 19, 2018, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: jeders on September 19, 2018, 11:03:23 PM
But I think on the next SAREX that I'm GBD for I'll use colors.

Dare you to use My Pretty Pony characters.

"Ground Team Applejack"
"Ground Team Rainbow Dash"
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 11:17:32 PM
Quote from: jeders on September 19, 2018, 11:03:23 PM
I have never once in 18 years seen, heard, or used Alpha; it's always been 1, 2, 3, etc. for me. But I think on the next SAREX that I'm GBD for I'll use colors.

Actually, for security, team names now need to be Alpha-Numeric, and contain at least one special character.

"This is Ground Team Delta_Four%&".

And then each message should require 2-factor authentication.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 19, 2018, 11:19:48 PM
Under CAPR 100-3, 1.8 Functional Designator Usage, you would use a two-digit numerical suffix if appropriate.

Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: NIN on September 19, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
<ERROR: Ground Team Name does not contain a numeric character. Please correct entry and resubmit>
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 19, 2018, 11:34:48 PM
Is "Stinger One-One Actual" out of the question?  8)
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: PHall on September 19, 2018, 11:49:49 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 19, 2018, 11:34:48 PM
Is "Stinger One-One Actual" out of the question?  8)

Yeah, the Air Force doesn't do the "Alpha" thing. That's a Squid thing! >:D
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Nick on September 20, 2018, 03:31:36 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 19, 2018, 09:58:02 PM
Last mission I was told CAP now uses numerical designators vs. alpha for Ground Teams.

IOW "This is Ground Team one" vs. "This is Ground Team Alpha".

Is this true?  Cite?

Or is the Goode Ider Fairy at work?
Our practice around these parts is to use the sortie number as the numerical designator.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Nick on September 20, 2018, 03:33:04 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on September 19, 2018, 11:19:48 PM
Under CAPR 100-3, 1.8 Functional Designator Usage, you would use a two-digit numerical suffix if appropriate.
One or two digit.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 03:44:30 AM
So GT25 becomes GT32 later in the day?

I guess that works.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Nick on September 20, 2018, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 03:44:30 AM
So GT25 becomes GT32 later in the day?

I guess that works.
Yeah. It makes it easier to track what their current tasking is, especially when you're running 7+ staging areas.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
I think combining them all is the best plan of action, that way no one gets left out, and we all know how important that is in our society today.

Red 1 Delta

Pink 7 X-ray

Tan 4 Tango

etc....

As a side note, our call out for finds has always been a musician or a band. I think last sarex it was Timberlake....

Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
I think combining them all is the best plan of action, that way no one gets left out, and we all know how important that is in our society today.

Red 1 Delta

Pink 7 X-ray

Tan 4 Tango

etc....

"Alpha Velveeta Knuckle Underwear, you are cleared for takeoff."


Quote from: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
As a side note, our call out for finds has always been a musician or a band. I think last sarex it was Timberlake....

This is no longer allowed, either, despite common usage.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: arajca on September 20, 2018, 02:09:27 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
I think combining them all is the best plan of action, that way no one gets left out, and we all know how important that is in our society today.

Red 1 Delta

Pink 7 X-ray

Tan 4 Tango

etc....

"Alpha Velveeta Knuckle Underwear, you are cleared for takeoff."


Quote from: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
As a side note, our call out for finds has always been a musician or a band. I think last sarex it was Timberlake....

This is no longer allowed, either, despite common usage.
Since someone will ask, here's the cite:
Quote from: CAPR 100-3, Para 2.12.102.12.10. Use of locally created pro-words, or agency codes from other services such as law
enforcement 10-codes and "signal" codes, Q-Codes or other amateur radio terminology, and other
shorthand terminology not in this regulation.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: TheSkyHornet on September 20, 2018, 02:13:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
"Alpha Velveeta Knuckle Underwear, you are cleared for takeoff."

I just freaking lost it in the office
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: THRAWN on September 20, 2018, 02:28:44 PM
"Alpha Velveeta Knuckle Underwear, you are cleared for takeoff."

The first HOT SHOTS quote of the day! And probably the last.....
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: audiododd on September 28, 2018, 06:15:43 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
Quote from: GroundHawg on September 20, 2018, 11:59:31 AM
I think combining them all is the best plan of action, that way no one gets left out, and we all know how important that is in our society today.

Red 1 Delta

Pink 7 X-ray

Tan 4 Tango

etc....

"Alpha Velveeta Knuckle Underwear, you are cleared for takeoff."


Nice Hot Shots! reference  :D
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: lordmonar on September 28, 2018, 06:59:37 PM
Quote from: Nick on September 20, 2018, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2018, 03:44:30 AM
So GT25 becomes GT32 later in the day?

I guess that works.
Yeah. It makes it easier to track what their current tasking is, especially when you're running 7+ staging areas.
The only problem I can see with that, is that it does not follow the same rule as aircraft.   CP1234 is always CAPFLIGHT 34 no matter what the sortie number.   Now that may not be set in stone anywhere but that's they do it in NVWG.

Having said that....the way the air force does it...is by mission number.    REDRUM 11 is the first sortie of the day for the REDRUM squadron.   Tail 123 might fly 2-3 sorties in a day  and it would be REDRUM 11 on the first sortie and REDRUM 14 on the second (REDRUM 12 and 13 being flown by other sorties)....and if they are standard mission they would repeat the cycle again the next day.

It is a six of one half dozen of the other sort of thing.
It would be nice to be consistant and maybe do it the same way in every wing....but at the end of the day.....so long and mission base and the actual teams know who is who....it does not really matter that much.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 28, 2018, 08:37:48 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2018, 06:59:37 PMCP1234 is always CAPFLIGHT 34 no matter what the sortie number.   Now that may not be set in stone anywhere but that's they do it in NVWG.

CAP aircraft callsigns haven't used "flight" for at least 4-5 years, probably longer.
CAPR 100-1, Page 29:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R100_001_162D77B8183A1.pdf
"7.13.3. Aircraft Call Signs. CAP corporate aircraft use the call sign "CAP" (pronounced
"kap") plus a three or four-digit number at all times, except as provided in para. 7.13.3.3. and 7.13.3.4. below."


As I recall the change occurred when the airline using it went out of business.

Edit: Actually 2009 http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9097.0

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f269/CAPnum/ask-auger_captain_fiftee.gif) (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/CAPnum/media/ask-auger_captain_fiftee.gif.html)
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on September 28, 2018, 08:59:49 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2018, 06:59:37 PMThe only problem I can see with that, is that it does not follow the same rule as aircraft. ... Now that may not be set in stone anywhere but that's they do it in NVWG.
It is essentially set in stone, the only permitted use of a functional designator by CAP aircraft is "Highbird" - refer CAPR 100-1 para 7.13.3.4.

I can see why you wouldn't want the pilot/observer to have to keep switching between callsigns depending on whether they're talking to ATC on the air-band radio or a ground-team on the CAP frequencies.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: PHall on September 28, 2018, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2018, 06:59:37 PMThe only problem I can see with that, is that it does not follow the same rule as aircraft. ... Now that may not be set in stone anywhere but that's they do it in NVWG.


Maybe NVWG needs to check the reg to make sure they're doing it right.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Vegas1972 on September 29, 2018, 01:39:10 AM
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2018, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on September 28, 2018, 06:59:37 PMThe only problem I can see with that, is that it does not follow the same rule as aircraft. ... Now that may not be set in stone anywhere but that's they do it in NVWG.


Maybe NVWG needs to check the reg to make sure they're doing it right.

I've been in NVWG for 3 years and have never heard capflight xx ...it's always been CAPxx since I've been here.   I think it was just a mistype molehill that's being turned into a mountain. 
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 29, 2018, 01:44:09 AM
I have been in CAP for 24 years or so and initially I used CAPFlightXXXX (pronounced CAPFlitexxxx).

About 15 years ago or so it changed to CAPXXXX.
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Vegas1972 on September 29, 2018, 01:59:50 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 29, 2018, 01:44:09 AM
I have been in CAP for 24 years or so and initially I used CAPFlightXXXX (pronounced CAPFlitexxxx).

About 15 years ago or so it changed to CAPXXXX.f

Yep.  That was established 3 or 4 posts ago. 
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: SarDragon on September 29, 2018, 02:34:39 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 29, 2018, 01:44:09 AM
I have been in CAP for 24 years or so and initially I used CAPFlightXXXX (pronounced CAPFlitexxxx).

About 15 years ago or so it changed to CAPXXXX.
To be specific - CAPR 100-3 (C1) 24 MARCH 2010
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Eclipse on September 29, 2018, 03:22:52 AM
Does >anyone< read anything but the last post in a thread anymore?
Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 29, 2018, 10:45:29 AM
Nope.

That WAS the reason for what I wrote. In the SAME tone that person wrote. Apparently HE or SHE missed the message of "three or four posts ago..."

I could swear that today's media makes more people reacting rather than thinking about what they just read...

Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on September 29, 2018, 11:11:55 AM
This happens in part I think because in a thread, you are not reading consecutively. You are reading it in interrupted periods.

You read several messages. Several days pass. You come back and read only the latest responses, and forget what was posted before.

In reality, what was "posted three or four messages ago" may have been posted "several days ago" as well so you loose the connection. Unless you start reading the thread from the beginning again you will not remember that what was answered or established "three or four posts ago."


Title: Re: No mo' Ground Team Alpha?
Post by: ol'fido on September 29, 2018, 02:00:02 PM
At our recent WLE, my group had two ground teams in the field. These teams were from two of the squadrons in the group. Because it was a wing level exercise and there might be several ground teams in the field from all over the state, we used unit charters as functional identifiers. One team was Ground Team  061 and one was Ground Team 286. We knew which team was which immediately and which area they were working in. It also prevented confusion with other teams from other groups in the wing. If there were more than one team from a unit, we could use a phonetic suffix such as Ground Team 061 Alpha.