SM/Officer first time experience at encampments new to CAP, stories.

[mynetdude]

I was kind of hoping for more stories about new members attending encampment for the first time.  I consider being more than 6 months into CAP still a new member.  I get promoted in 2 weeks finally!

I was already 9 months into CAP by the time encampment came for me I was still pretty new, it has been 8 months since that encampment and I feel like I have been in forever and to a degree I'd still consider myself new but not really.

Anyway, how about some stories about senior/officers first timers at encampment regardless of how long you've been in CAP?



As to the interference issues, I never once interfered I did ask too many questions of my fellow TAC officers though and then once I caught a safety hazard and informed one of the flight commanders who happened to walk into the barracks and pointed to  him and he took care of it right then and there .

Overall, I just listened and watched most of it was pretty fun too.

[Eeyore]

The encampment I attended last summer was my first encampment as a senior member. I was acting as both a TAC and the encampment PAO. A couple of the TACs that were supposed to attend bailed last minute, and being in a small WG at the time made it nearly impossible to replace them last minute.

That week was the most exhausting week that I have done in a long time. I do not recommend trying to do two jobs, it's nearly impossible. When the cadets were in class I was running back to the staff office and writing press releases, downloading pictures that I had taken earlier, and proofing articles written my the cadet PA staff. Then running back to catch my flight before they left the class. After the basic cadets were asleep and I had finished all the stuff I had to do as a TAC I would join the rest of the senior staff and work on paperwork, and PAO stuff; usually we were up pretty late. After a couple hours of sleep, back up with the flight and doing it all again.

I loved the whole experience, I just wouldn't ever want to be double staffed again.

There were a number of things that added to the difficulty of staffing the encampment, but those are longer stories.

[mynetdude]

The encampment I attended last summer was my first encampment as a senior member. I was acting as both a TAC and the encampment PAO. A couple of the TACs that were supposed to attend bailed last minute, and being in a small WG at the time made it nearly impossible to replace them last minute.

That week was the most exhausting week that I have done in a long time. I do not recommend trying to do two jobs, it's nearly impossible. When the cadets were in class I was running back to the staff office and writing press releases, downloading pictures that I had taken earlier, and proofing articles written my the cadet PA staff. Then running back to catch my flight before they left the class. After the basic cadets were asleep and I had finished all the stuff I had to do as a TAC I would join the rest of the senior staff and work on paperwork, and PAO stuff; usually we were up pretty late. After a couple hours of sleep, back up with the flight and doing it all again.

I loved the whole experience, I just wouldn't ever want to be double staffed again.

There were a number of things that added to the difficulty of staffing the encampment, but those are longer stories.

Double staffing is probably one of the hardest thingt so do, encampment or at any other level of echelon.

[DNall]

TAC means train, advise, & counsel. It doesn't mean safety officer, adult supervision, wasting my time.

I'm sick of hearing staff will learn through their mistakes. Yeah, they will if someone points them out. And while that's happening, their students are getting left behind. Encampment does not exist for staff. Anything they get out of it is bonus. It's there for basics & that takes priority at all times.

The training standard is simple. The military enlists our Mitchell cadets at E-3. That means the academics & PT of the program to that point, plus encampment, regardless of their age or how fast/slow they progress, must equal the capability/competence/etc level expected of an E-3 in the mil.

Most cadet officers & NCOs can't reach that training standard themselves in a week, much less bring a flight of basics to that point. I actually don't think it's achievable, but the job is to ensure we get as close as possible.

That does require intervention from competent leaders. The TAC acting like their mom/dad is a complete failure. The one pushing the flight staff aside to directly lead the flight is to. But, I constantly ride a C/Sq CC & 1Sgt, Flt/CC & Flt/sgt. I'll do it out of earshot of the flight, but they're going to feel enormous pressure from me with performance deadlines, constant feedback, tactics suggestions, etc. The flight too is going to get an earful at the start & know darn well we're there to do some business.

It's not freakin vacation boy scout summer camp lets all play games & get a pretty merit badge BS. I got no time for kids games, and I got no time for stupid. If you're ready to come & learn how to be the real deal, then I can help you out with that. I'm not going to be teaching battle drills or anything like that obviously. I need them to become competent professional airmen so they can go back & progress beyond that.

[mynetdude]

TAC means train, advise, & counsel. It doesn't mean safety officer, adult supervision, wasting my time.

I'm sick of hearing staff will learn through their mistakes. Yeah, they will if someone points them out. And while that's happening, their students are getting left behind. Encampment does not exist for staff. Anything they get out of it is bonus. It's there for basics & that takes priority at all times.

The training standard is simple. The military enlists our Mitchell cadets at E-3. That means the academics & PT of the program to that point, plus encampment, regardless of their age or how fast/slow they progress, must equal the capability/competence/etc level expected of an E-3 in the mil.

Most cadet officers & NCOs can't reach that training standard themselves in a week, much less bring a flight of basics to that point. I actually don't think it's achievable, but the job is to ensure we get as close as possible.

That does require intervention from competent leaders. The TAC acting like their mom/dad is a complete failure. The one pushing the flight staff aside to directly lead the flight is to. But, I constantly ride a C/Sq CC & 1Sgt, Flt/CC & Flt/sgt. I'll do it out of earshot of the flight, but they're going to feel enormous pressure from me with performance deadlines, constant feedback, tactics suggestions, etc. The flight too is going to get an earful at the start & know darn well we're there to do some business.

It's not freakin vacation boy scout summer camp lets all play games & get a pretty merit badge BS. I got no time for kids games, and I got no time for stupid. If you're ready to come & learn how to be the real deal, then I can help you out with that. I'm not going to be teaching battle drills or anything like that obviously. I need them to become competent professional airmen so they can go back & progress beyond that.

I'm not all sure what the exact goal of encampment is but to give basics an immersion of what military basic training is "generally" like as there are certain things cadets are not allowed to do as if you were in basic training.

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I don't know, 1 week seems kind of short for some of the things they needed to get done and at the same time nobody wants to be there for more than a week I can betcha that.  I've talked to senior members who were former cadets, they have gone through 2 weeks of encampments when they were in CAP as a kid and those times have changed.

Also YMMV depending on your encampment commander, we're told unless there is a safety issue or cadet staff doing something obtusely wrong we as TACs are not to do anything unless they come to the TAC for help.

Our NCO who was at encampment last year got into trouble just for that, he was advising the cadet staff on some drill moves not that they didn't know it but how they could effectively do it better.

So I hear encampment is varied and isn't "standardized" I don't exactly believe in standardization, however getting too wrapped up in doing it one way vs the correct way could also be an issue.

[Eeyore]

We were encouraged to help the cadet staff.  I personally spent a lot of time with my flight's c/NCO helping him learn how to drill, and command. Towards the end of the week, he actually started to get it, pretty exciting when you get through to a cadet and they turn themselves around and excel.

Although, there were a number of people around the wing that disagreed with how the encampment was being run; we were running it right out of the NYWG encampment handbook. We had parents (senior members) showing up and telling cadets not to listen to us.

[sarc]Apparently taking a role in training cadets is more than what senior members should be doing, and when cadets mess up, we are supposed to sit back and watch until they figure it out on their own.[/sarc]

[DNall]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

[mynetdude]

We were encouraged to help the cadet staff.  I personally spent a lot of time with my flight's c/NCO helping him learn how to drill, and command. Towards the end of the week, he actually started to get it, pretty exciting when you get through to a cadet and they turn themselves around and excel.

Although, there were a number of people around the wing that disagreed with how the encampment was being run; we were running it right out of the NYWG encampment handbook. We had parents (senior members) showing up and telling cadets not to listen to us.

[sarc]Apparently taking a role in training cadets is more than what senior members should be doing, and when cadets mess up, we are supposed to sit back and watch until they figure it out on their own.[/sarc]

I don't know, if you ask me the flight sergeants and commanders should already know their D&C by now, unless you've got a cadet who is just an Airman as the flight sergeant?

[mynetdude]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

I don't disagree with you, it really all depends on the needs of the cadets and encampment as it is.

I don't know D&C well enough to teach them that, even if I did know my D&C moves that doesn't mean I would be good at it.  The difference of knowing how to do it vs being good at it is a huge difference.

If you're prior military or current reserve you'd probably have it down better and can provide better support that way.  Not every TAC has the same abilities/skills as you do.

[Ned]

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

Mr.  Nall,

First, let me sincerely thank you for the hard work you do with our cadets at encampment.  You are making a difference in people's lives.

As an encampment kind of guy (30+, mostly CAWG), I've always been keenly interested in the topic of "how military" our encapments ought to be.  I wrote an article on this topic for CadetStuff here.

But I would like to point out that the 52-16, Paragraph 5-1 a. lists the goals for our encampment program, and #11 is "Present an introduction to the military."  I'm not sure that that goal (or any of the others) should be interpreted to include holding cadets to any of the standards I would normally associate with an E-3 in any of the services.

Don't get me wrong.  I believe that encapment should be a vigorous and challenging activity for every cadet.  We already know that a challenging encampment program is one of the single most important factors in cadet retention and training.

And I also strongly agree with you that TACs are not mere babysitters or safety officers; TACs should actively engage and mentor the cadets when and where appropriate.


As you and others have noted, there is a fairly wide range of practices among the wings.  Some wings encourage active engagement by the TAC staff; others less so.  Until we get some consensus in this area and update the 52-16 and perhaps the 52-10 to give better guidance to the field, neither approach is definatively "wrong."


FWIW, the National Staff is currently working the issue, and will be sending officers to both Lackland and the USAFA to study how the AF sets the "look and feel" of BMT and Beast.  The plan is to develop standards and tools that would allow CP volunteers to implement a challenging program that is appropriate to our 13-15 year old training audience.


Ned Lee
National CP Advisor
(And retired Infantry officer)

[flyguy06]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

[flyguy06]

I didnt read the previous posts, but I dont know if a "Senior Member" Encamment is a good idea. The cadet program has a different objective than the senior member program. The cadet programis designed to teach leadership and build character in a military and aviation environment. The senior member program is designed to provide Search and rescue services to customers. I

I cant really see having 50-60 year old men wakingup at 0500 and doing PT and marching in formation. 

[SJFedor]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

The only NCSA that is geared only towards adults is NESA Mission Aircrew, which requires age 18+. Last year we had 1 cadet in the school.

Not that NCSA's should be geared towards our SM's anyway. They're National Cadet Special Activities

[DNall]

Mr.  Nall,

First, let me sincerely thank you for the hard work you do with our cadets at encampment.  You are making a difference in people's lives.

As an encampment kind of guy (30+, mostly CAWG), I've always been keenly interested in the topic of "how military" our encapments ought to be.  I wrote an article on this topic for CadetStuff here.

But I would like to point out that the 52-16, Paragraph 5-1 a. lists the goals for our encampment program, and #11 is "Present an introduction to the military."  I'm not sure that that goal (or any of the others) should be interpreted to include holding cadets to any of the standards I would normally associate with an E-3 in any of the services.

Don't get me wrong.  I believe that encapment should be a vigorous and challenging activity for every cadet.  We already know that a challenging encampment program is one of the single most important factors in cadet retention and training.

And I also strongly agree with you that TACs are not mere babysitters or safety officers; TACs should actively engage and mentor the cadets when and where appropriate.


As you and others have noted, there is a fairly wide range of practices among the wings.  Some wings encourage active engagement by the TAC staff; others less so.  Until we get some consensus in this area and update the 52-16 and perhaps the 52-10 to give better guidance to the field, neither approach is definatively "wrong."


FWIW, the National Staff is currently working the issue, and will be sending officers to both Lackland and the USAFA to study how the AF sets the "look and feel" of BMT and Beast.  The plan is to develop standards and tools that would allow CP volunteers to implement a challenging program that is appropriate to our 13-15 year old training audience.


Ned Lee
National CP Advisor
(And retired Infantry officer)

It's not about military versus not military. It actually has nothing to do with the military.

As a cadet progresses through the program, is that at all meaningful? Is it just about time served & maybe positions held, or does each milestone (maybe even achievement) actually represent a definable skill level that the person has reached?

The military seems to believe it's a definable skill level, which is also reached through four years of JROTC, or eagle scout. And, they believe that skill level is on par with E-3.

The CAP cadet program was founded to increase, through education & military exposure, the pool of candidates for military aviation service. The military continues to support the CAP cadet program through to today because we in fact continue that same mission. When we increase the number of people in the population that are capable of serving at an E-3 level right from the start, that's an advantage for them, and that's what their investment is all about.

We have a responsibility as leaders to respond to that investment by our sponsor. We have a responsibility to our cadets to preserve that E-3 reward for them if they choose that path by guaranteeing those standards are upheld.

CAP isn't going to define the goal of the program as producing E-3 skilled cadets at the Mitchell level. They're going to define the characteristics of that skill level & state those as the training objective. That's what you'll see in the reg.

The reason I point out the E-3 association is to lock in that standard level & defy trends along a slippery slope to soften the program away from that. I refuse to operate a program that pencil whips kids though on lowered standards. Some of that happens because of our failure as leaders, some of it happens because we don't want to leave kids behind. It doesn't really matter though. The standards are there, and it's our solemn duty to ensure they're met, regardless of the quality of cadet staff we have to assist us in that mission.

Does that make more sense?

[mynetdude]

I didnt read the previous posts, but I dont know if a "Senior Member" Encamment is a good idea. The cadet program has a different objective than the senior member program. The cadet programis designed to teach leadership and build character in a military and aviation environment. The senior member program is designed to provide Search and rescue services to customers. I

I cant really see having 50-60 year old men wakingup at 0500 and doing PT and marching in formation. 

I agree, but that isn't what we are really talking about.  We're talking about our experiences as a new member who have gone to encampment. And a bit of encampment variety talk as well .

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

The only NCSA that is geared only towards adults is NESA Mission Aircrew, which requires age 18+. Last year we had 1 cadet in the school.

Not that NCSA's should be geared towards our SM's anyway. They're National Cadet Special Activities

Oh yeah forgot about NESA, NBB sees a lot of cadets I am sure but NBB isn't really an encampment it is more of a very large ES mission according to what the NBB webpage says about NBB.

[DNall]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

[Chappie]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

[mynetdude]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

Yeah I remember at encampment the cadet staff got it figured out by Tuesday of that week and camp would soon be over on Saturday the problem was pass in review was on Friday you really only had 2 days left .

IMHO 2 week encampments might be a bit more fun... whether or not kids could handle that is another subject matter.