Cadets as Aircrew on Actual

Started by SJFedor, June 17, 2007, 03:09:40 AM

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SJFedor

I think I'm loosing my mind tonight...

I distinctly remember somewhere reading that cadets may only serve on aircrews after age 18, and they may only do so on training missions until they turn senior, when they may participate in both training and actuals. I checked 60-3 and all I came up with was the following...

f. Use of qualified CAP cadets is encouraged as much as possible on appropriate missions. Cadets should be trained in the various functions of mission operations and support as permitted. A qualified senior member must directly supervise cadets less than 18 years of age. Only cadets 18 years of age and older, who hold a valid CAPF 101, Specialty Qualification Card, or a valid CAPF 101T, Specialty Qualification Training Card, are authorized to fly on aircraft involved in the performance of emergency services operations. Any cadet may be flown directly to and from a mission base when needed to perform mission duties, provided the pilot-in-command is at least a qualified mission transport pilot. It should be noted that cadets can be qualified to serve as ground team leaders, mission pilots, and several other positions of authority, but cadet protection policies must be followed. If senior members are assigned to a team in a subordinate position to a cadet, the senior member may exercise command authority if necessary to avoid extreme risks endangering the team.

Can someone help restore my brain???

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Mustang

Quote from: SJFedor on June 17, 2007, 03:09:40 AM
I think I'm loosing my mind tonight...

I distinctly remember somewhere reading that cadets may only serve on aircrews after age 18, and they may only do so on training missions until they turn senior, when they may participate in both training and actuals.

The first half of your sentence is correct, the last half is not. Cadets over 18 may serve in any aircrew capacity including mission pilot on both training and actual missions.
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


lordmonar

QuoteOnly cadets 18 years of age and older, who hold a valid CAPF 101, Specialty Qualification Card, or a valid CAPF 101T, Specialty Qualification Training Card, are authorized to fly on aircraft involved in the performance of emergency services operations

Nope....cadets under 18 may be on ground teams and mission base...but you must be 18 to be on an mission or training aircrew sortie.

Now...I have heard and seen some units/wings/regions that think cadets should not or cannot be on real missions.  There are a lot of threads on this subject....but it is basically BS.  Cadets under proper supervisions are allowed to participate in every and all ES missions (aircrew must be 18).
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

CASH172

It says cadets can't be on aircrews for ES Ops but does that mean they can't train on the specialty at all or just for actuals. 

jeders

Quote from: CASH172 on June 17, 2007, 03:46:53 AM
It says cadets can't be on aircrews for ES Ops but does that mean they can't train on the specialty at all or just for actuals. 

Maybe I misread something, but huh?

You can be a cadet who is qualified as, lets take me as an example, a Mission Scanner. As a cadet trained as Mission Scanner, I was able to fly on training and real missions, especially since I was the only available mission scanner sometimes.

From my reading, nowhere in there does it say that cadets can't be on aircrews for ES Ops. Cadets can and should be used on aircrews when appropriate, but if a SM is along, that SM can take command in cases of "extreme risks."
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

RiverAux

The reg says cadets under 18 can be transported on aircraft during missions and that cadets over 18, who are properly qualified can participate as full aircrew missions on training or actual missions. 

PHall

There is a cadet in PR Wing who has a find on his first mission as a Mission Pilot Standard.

arajca

Part of the "No cadets on ES missions" comes from the feds regarding large scale disasters. They don't want the hassle of figuring out the Child Labor Laws, which vary from state to state. As for 'typical' es missions, I haven't seen that attitude in CO. The only time cadets have been prohibited is when they show up without a CAPF 101.

lordmonar

Quote from: CASH172 on June 17, 2007, 03:46:53 AM
It says cadets can't be on aircrews for ES Ops but does that mean they can't train on the specialty at all or just for actuals. 

No...read again...it says "aircraft involved in the performance of emergency services operations".  That means training operations too.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SJFedor

Well, I got that question answered, but does anyone remember seeing somewhere, anywhere, that cadets >18 y/o were not allowed on actuals as an aircrew member until they made the switch? Anyone?

I need to find my pills  :-[

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

jeders

Quote from: SJFedor on June 17, 2007, 05:14:17 AM
Well, I got that question answered, but does anyone remember seeing somewhere, anywhere, that cadets >18 y/o were not allowed on actuals as an aircrew member until they made the switch? Anyone?

I need to find my pills  :-[

Never once heard that in my entire time in CAP. However, I've not been in forever so maybe there once was a policy like that long ago.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

JohnKachenmeister

(Smilin Kach adjusts his cane, cleans his bifocals, and checks out the hot nurse passing laxatives out at the Old Pilot's Home.)

Back WIWAC, there was a prohibition against cadets flying on missions as aircrew.  You had to be an SM.  BUT... cadets could do ANY ground assignment, and could drive CAP vehicles if licensed.  They could also drive personal vehicles on CAP assignments, again, if licensed.  I remember my assignment when I was a 16-year old trooper was to drive the "Follow Me" truck, meeting incoming CAP and member owned aircraft, and leading them to the parking area.  The back of the truck was full of cadets who would dismount, guide the plane to a tie-down area, then tie it down.  While they were tying it down, I would drive the aircrew in for de-briefing, then go back and pick up the tie-down crew.

I had a driver's license... I was now in the BIG TIME.  No more having to tie down the planes, I was now the DRIVER!

I would also shuttle folks to a restaurant about a half mile down the road from the airport when there were no planes coming in.

I do not know when the regulation was changed to permit cadets to fly as aircrew on missions, (BillB... help me out on that one) but it was a non-starter back in the 1960's.  Once you turned 18, you had better find your way into the RealMilitary, or the RealMilitary would come find you.

Cadets under age 18 can fly to and from the missions, but not act as aircrew.  The principal difference is that the pilot flying cadets to/from a mission does NOT need to be a qualified Cadet Orientation Pilot.  That is the basic requirement for flying cadets for any reason, other than to/from a mission.  The pilot does need to be a Mission Transport Pilot, but not an Orientation Pilot.

Now, IF a Mission Transport Pilot is flying some cadets to a mission base, can they be given an en-route assignment to monitor 121.5 and to fly a designated inbound route by the Incident Commander?  Or, would that be considered "Acting as aircrew?" 
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

QuoteNow, IF a Mission Transport Pilot is flying some cadets to a mission base, can they be given an en-route assignment to monitor 121.5 and to fly a designated inbound route by the Incident Commander?  Or, would that be considered "Acting as aircrew?" 
Since we're pretty much always supposed to be monitoring 121.5 that isn't an issue for either the cadets or the pilot.  But, doing a route search would be using one of our standard search techniques and would be beyond the scope of a mission transport pilot's duties (and ride along cadets as well).

wacapgh

"No Cadets as Aircrew on AF assigned missions" was in effect at least up until the mid 1980's.

Cadets could train for and earn an Observer rating (I got mine in 1977 as a C/MSGT).

At the time, it was requiremed for all Observers to complete an Air Radiological Monitoring from either the State or Feds. My right shoulder got on a lot of TV news reports.

I was the opinion of "those in charge" that flying on non-USAF missions was permissable. At that time we were performing "Sunset Patrols" of the northern Puget Sound on Sunday evenings for the USCG (looking for boaters in distress).

I saw no reason to argue with people who were giving the OK to spend summer evenings in the back seat of a Super Cub or L-19  :)

Strangely, the uniform regulations at the time prohibited cadets from wearing any cloth aircrew badges or ratings. So you had cadets in fatigues with metal Solo or Observer wings.



Eclipse

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 17, 2007, 01:02:38 PM
Cadets under age 18 can fly to and from the missions, but not act as aircrew.  The principal difference is that the pilot flying cadets to/from a mission does NOT need to be a qualified Cadet Orientation Pilot.  That is the basic requirement for flying cadets for any reason, other than to/from a mission.  The pilot does need to be a Mission Transport Pilot, but not an Orientation Pilot.

Quote please, I do not believe pilots are required to be approved Orientation Pilots unless they are performing orientation rides.  In other cases I believe standard CPPT would be enough.  YMMV based on local wing policies.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 17, 2007, 01:02:38 PM
Now, IF a Mission Transport Pilot is flying some cadets to a mission base, can they be given an en-route assignment to monitor 121.5 and to fly a designated inbound route by the Incident Commander?  Or, would that be considered "Acting as aircrew?" 

Assigning anything but a fully qualified aircrew to do anything mission related is a slippery and dangerous slope, even just turning on the Becker and listening could be a problem if a non-aircrew member reports bad information and sends the team(s) in the wrong direction.

Better to leave mission work for mission crews.  This is why we have been fighting to insure highbirds are Transport pilots with MROs, removes the temptation of AOBD's to "just move to the next grid and listen".

"That Others May Zoom"

BillB

When I was a cadet, cadets that held CAP pilots ratings could fly as mission pilots. In fact on one mission, I as a cadet, had a cadet observer, and it was an actual AF funded mission. Just for information we found the target, a crashed B-25, one of the earlier finds by a cadet as mission pilot. That changed in the late 1950's so that cadets could not fly on actual missions. Keep in mind the legal age then was 21, not the current 18. So even a 20 year old senior member could not fly on AF missions.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Eclipse on June 17, 2007, 03:50:56 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 17, 2007, 01:02:38 PM
Cadets under age 18 can fly to and from the missions, but not act as aircrew.  The principal difference is that the pilot flying cadets to/from a mission does NOT need to be a qualified Cadet Orientation Pilot.  That is the basic requirement for flying cadets for any reason, other than to/from a mission.  The pilot does need to be a Mission Transport Pilot, but not an Orientation Pilot.

Quote please, I do not believe pilots are required to be approved Orientation Pilots unless they are performing orientation rides.  In other cases I believe standard CPPT would be enough.  YMMV based on local wing policies.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 17, 2007, 01:02:38 PM
Now, IF a Mission Transport Pilot is flying some cadets to a mission base, can they be given an en-route assignment to monitor 121.5 and to fly a designated inbound route by the Incident Commander?  Or, would that be considered "Acting as aircrew?" 

Assigning anything but a fully qualified aircrew to do anything mission related is a slippery and dangerous slope, even just turning on the Becker and listening could be a problem if a non-aircrew member reports bad information and sends the team(s) in the wrong direction.

Better to leave mission work for mission crews.  This is why we have been fighting to insure highbirds are Transport pilots with MROs, removes the temptation of AOBD's to "just move to the next grid and listen".

Try 60-1, paragraph 2-6, (a) (2) (b):  "Other flights when approved by the unit commander and the PIC is Orientation Pilot Qualified."

Eclipse, I got burned violating this reg one time, and I didn't realize I was wrong, either.  I flew a cadet to a wing CAC meeting, when I was form 5 qual, but not O-flight qual.  You never forget a regulation when somebody tears a piece out of your empenage for violating it!
Another former CAP officer

Eclipse

I'll take that...

So would you read that the respective unit CC has to be aware and approve any time a cadet flies? (or at least someone in the direct chain?).

Vs. any random senior saying "let's go", even in an ES situation?

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Wait...are you saying that the a mission transport pilot MUST also be a Cadet O-ride pilot TOO if he is transporting cadets on a mission?

That does not make any sense.

The only reason why the O-pilot has more requirements is because he is giving instruction (sort of) and the cadet may actually take the controls.  None of that sort of stuff should be going on during a Transport Mission.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

No, he was saying that outside of a mission transport situation, you need to be an o-ride pilot to fly a cade anywhere.