Gray and white NB proposal.

[Hawk200]

Nah.  Anyone is free to like the greys, just as anyone is free to not like them.  It's not worth insulting one another over.

You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.

But you turn around and suggest that CAP shouldn't wear blue uniforms, in effect showing the same dislike for blues:

My personal opinion is CAP should get out of the military uniform (at least for seniors) PERIOD. 

Might give someone the impression that since you chose to wear distinctives that no one else should have a choice.

Then a statement implying that the person is going to be judged harshly for wearing the distinctive:

Be careful Capt Rob, the uniform nazi's are going to jump all over you for liking the grays.

Put on your asbestos underwear.

Doesn't seem like you're looking to help at all, just posting flamebait. Why bother? Are you that bored?

[Nick]

You are correct about liking and not liking, however, read some of the posts in regards to the grays and you will see the we "Fat and Fuzzies" tend to take most of the hits.

You are correct. It does appear that way, which is actually a little offensive to the non-"Fat-'n-Fuzzies" like myself who wears the aviator uniform because I get enough of wearing the AF-style uniform in the AF.  Just because I choose not to wear an AF uniform once in a while, I don't like being associated with wearing the "Fat Guy Uniform" (FGU).

[Gunner C]

It's unfortunate but true.  All of the corporate uniforms have the reputation of being "uniforms of a lesser standard."

Let's consider this:  a corporate uniform for everyone that incorporates the greys and whites, allows for over-weight officers and officers with neatly trimmed beards or goatees.  A uniform that remembers our uniformed roots as WW2 combatants and looks at the realities of today's dress and grooming.

Select a new uniform ensemble and have a 5-year to 8-year wear out date for ALL USAF uniforms with a no replacement date within 6 months to a year.  Cadets stay blue and SMs go grey.

[Hawk200]

You are correct. It does appear that way, which is actually a little offensive to the non-"Fat-'n-Fuzzies" like myself who wears the aviator uniform because I get enough of wearing the AF-style uniform in the AF.  Just because I choose not to wear an AF uniform once in a while, I don't like being associated with wearing the "Fat Guy Uniform" (FGU).

There are some, but there's a flip side that thinks that blues don't belong. The discrimination isn't one sided.

If you don't want to wear an AF uniform once in awhile, nothing wrong with that. But there's no reason they should be done away with.

[ZigZag911]

It's unfortunate but true.  All of the corporate uniforms have the reputation of being "uniforms of a lesser standard."

Let's consider this:  a corporate uniform for everyone that incorporates the greys and whites, allows for over-weight officers and officers with neatly trimmed beards or goatees.  A uniform that remembers our uniformed roots as WW2 combatants and looks at the realities of today's dress and grooming.

Select a new uniform ensemble and have a 5-year to 8-year wear out date for ALL USAF uniforms with a no replacement date within 6 months to a year.  Cadets stay blue and SMs go grey.

Makes a lot of sense, you've got my 'vote'!

[Nick]

Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?

[PhotogPilot]

Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?

Not sure, my first stint, from 88-91 was in the metal grade and Noriega shirt period (pre Berry-Board), when I came back in January 2001 the aviator/gray was just starting to come in (post Berry-Board).

[Hawk200]

Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?

They were around in '94 when I first joined. They weren't very common, but they were around.

[High Speed Low Drag]

WOW.  I am gone for a few days and here is a 6 page topic in less than two weeks.  For all of you that are saying "Oh geez, another uniform topic" I say why not?  It is clear that this is a major issue to a large number of people.  Last time I checked, this is a volunteer organization, so let'em talk.  When people do not feel free to express their opinion is when they start being dissatisfied with what they are doing.

Now that I have said that, let me say this.

I am a "fat and fuzzy" and am getting very tired of being put down because of it.  Yes, I know I am overweight, 90 lbs over H/W chart.  The whys are not important.  But when was the last time any of the guys that bad-talk us fat guys have chased a fleeing crack-head for two blocks, caught up and tackled them, and then had to fight with them to get them into custody?  I have, just a couple of months ago.  When I finished police academy 17 years ago, I still wouldn't have met the H/W – but I never dropped out of one of the 5 mile runs – as a matter of fact I was a member of the "Cheetah Squad" because we would leave 2/3rd of the class behind.  (Recently ran 1 ½ mile in 15:15 & I'm over 40) SO – JUST BECAUSE I'M FAT DOES NOT MEAN I AM OUT OF SHAPE!!!!!!!   

More to come

[High Speed Low Drag]

KUDOS to the committee!!!  I need a uniform that looks good and I loved the CSU.  I am very disappointed that it was ripped from us. I am proud of my awards and my qualifications and would strongly oppose any proposal that would strip the "military-style" away from what we are wearing.  From reading the board, I've seen a lot of suggestions and thoughts thrown out, but I haven't seen the codified guidelines.  Here are my thoughts for guidelines:

*** Note this would be for the non-USAF uniform only.  Those that want to wear the USAF-style should still do so. *****

1 – The uniform should be extremely cost-effective.  SMs are already paying a lot up-front in costs, we should try to keep this cost down.  One of the ways to do this is to use as much "off-the-rack" as possible, with possible multiple suppliers.

2 – The uniform should be CAP distinctive, but military-style. 

3 – The uniform should be flexible.  There should be one "base set" of service uniforms – just like everything builds on the basic light blue shirt / dark blue pants for USAF.  For us, multiple uniform combos should spawn from the basic white/grays.

Now for some thoughts to the committee. 

I would really like to explore the black trousers idea.  With all the gray on the white shirt, gray slacks "wash-out" the person wearing the uniform even more.  The black trousers would serve to add contrast to the ensemble.  Also, with the Army doing away with the black trousers and going all blue (see below), black will be distinctive.  Also, we can use the Navy black trousers for cost issues & uniformity.

Tried to put pic in, couldn't figure out how to do it.

And since anyone wearing epaulette sleeves will have stripe down the trousers, we will avoid further conflict.

I would like to see the Army black windbreaker become the designated jacket for the combo, with the requisite gray epaulette sleeves.  Ditto the commando sweater.

I agree with a cap/hat.  If we use the black trousers, then the US Navy's new black flight cap with the CAP SM eagle will go nicely with it .  (Again, off the rack = lower costs).

Service Coat – Now that will be the hard one.  I definitely think we should incorporate one, since the corporate service coat died.  Wide open for ideas about that.

I'll Photoshop some ideas in the next couple of days.  I LOVE to Photoshop.

[AlphaSigOU]

The 'black' trousers in the new Navy E-1 through E-6 uniform are actually Navy blue, which is almost black. 'Black' trousers may further perpetuate the 'airline pilot' uniform image; not that I have a problem with it, I do like the idea.

The Army is actually retiring the greens; IIRC there was a black uniform but I think it's been retired some years ago, as was the white summer uniform for officers. Unless the trouser stripe is already built into the trousers, it's gonna be an expensive bit of tailoring.

If we can add piping to the flight cap, similar to the AF-style flight cap to differentiate SMWOG/NCO and officer, better still. But a plain flight cap will probably make things simpler.

Service cap should include 'scrambled eggs' or 'farts and darts' for field-grade officers. Again, for simplicity we could get rid of it and keep a plain visor.

Just my two cents... before taxes take away most of it!

[High Speed Low Drag]

The 'black' trousers in the new Navy E-1 through E-6 uniform are actually Navy blue, which is almost black. 'Black' trousers may further perpetuate the 'airline pilot' uniform image; not that I have a problem with it, I do like the idea.

Ok.  I thought they were black.  It would not be hard to find a "commercial" source for black trousers.  I know that it might tend us towards the "airline pilot" uiniform, but with the nameplate, qual badges, ribbons, and epaluette sleeves, that should differentiate us enough to make it easy to see.  Besides, Ma Blue wouldn't have any room to complain.

The Army is actually retiring the greens; IIRC there was a black uniform but I think it's been retired some years ago, as was the white summer uniform for officers. Unless the trouser stripe is already built into the trousers, it's gonna be an expensive bit of tailoring.

I tried to include a picture of the new Army uniforms, but couldn't get it to insert.  The striping is on the Army uniform.  We would go with just a plain black trouser.  I believe early 2010 is the completed phase out / phase in for the new unifroms.

If we can add piping to the flight cap, similar to the AF-style flight cap to differentiate SMWOG/NCO and officer, better still. But a plain flight cap will probably make things simpler.

Service cap should include 'scrambled eggs' or 'farts and darts' for field-grade officers. Again, for simplicity we could get rid of it and keep a plain visor.

Just my two cents... before taxes take away most of it!

I would like to see the piping on the flight cap as well, but would not advocate putting it on there just for us.  Besides, the black flight cap would be distinguishing enough for the white/grays.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Out of curiosity ... when did the aviator uniform get put into service?

Another $0.02:

I first joined in late 1993.  Berry boards, blue nameplates, BDU's, three different flight suits (green, blue, orange) and several types of polo shirts (though my unit only wore AF-style).  My unit had some of the blue epaulettes in our inventory, but we couldn't wear them.

At that time, we weren't sure if we were going to be allowed to wear the new "Tony McPeak" AF uniform or not.  One option I heard of was we were, with light blue sleeve rank, and the other was that we'd stay in the four-pocket coat and go back to hard rank.  Of course, neither happened.

I was aware of the grey/white from pictures but I didn't see any until I first went to a Wing function, and those were different to what we have now.  No epaulettes, no ribbons, and the nameplate was the same as on the blazer combo.

The current grey/whites came in around '95-'96, around the time the grey epaulettes and grey nameplates came in, and when the AF allowed us to wear the "U.S." cutouts for officers on the AF service coat.  Go-ahead to wear ribbons on the white shirt was several years later, I think.

Why gray and white were chosen when so many other colours were available is beyond me.

[Dracosbane]

Sorry, wrong thread, I moved this to the design a new uniform thread.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was asked to photoshop a blue coat to gray, but have failed epically.

Then this was posted in the other thread:

Basic working design for CT-UNI group
[smg id=67]

Personally, I think that is rocking and works great, minus the blue tie -black would look better.

[Spike]

We will never get the "US" cutouts on any corporate uniform.  Nor should we assume that military badges or decorations could be worn.  As far as metal rank, don't count on that either.

My opinion is a "CAP" tee shirt and khaki cargo pants are in our future.

I am just so disgusted by the elimination of the CSU still!

[Major Carrales]

I was asked to photoshop a blue coat to gray, but have failed epically.

Then this was posted in the other thread:

Basic working design for CT-UNI group
[smg id=67]

Personally, I think that is rocking and works great, minus the blue tie -black would look better.

Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Funny, having grown up in the Former Soviet Union, it has no such effect on me.

[wuzafuzz]

Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.

The bad guys wore just about every uniform color out there.  Every one of those uniform colors have been used by other organizations since WWII without major issues.  The Navy and Marines are pulling off dark color jackets just fine.

As long as a uniform doesn't include riding boots with breeches and crushed caps few will care.

This thread is full of excuses to say no.  Commissioning stripes versus officer stripes.  Hard rank versus epaulets.  Grey or black or khaki.  We might look too much like cops or too much like the Air Force or too much like history.  I'll just say it: I am not fond of the black coats and prefer the grey if a change must be made.  In the meantime I'll wear the AF blues or the current grey and/or the blazer combo.  Personal preference, that's it.

[arajca]

Black jackets on paramilitary style units...it screams GODWIN's LAW.

The bad guys wore just about every uniform color out there.  Every one of those uniform colors have been used by other organizations since WWII without major issues.  The Navy and Marines are pulling off dark color jackets just fine.

As long as a uniform doesn't include riding boots with breeches and crushed caps few will care.

This thread is full of excuses to say no.  Commissioning stripes versus officer stripes.  Hard rank versus epaulets.  Grey or black or khaki.  We might look too much like cops or too much like the Air Force or too much like history.  I'll just say it: I am not fond of the black coats and prefer the grey if a change must be made.  In the meantime I'll wear the AF blues or the current grey and/or the blazer combo.  Personal preference, that's it.

Part of the issue is availabilty and cost. Black and various shades of dark blue are already available for low to moderate cost. Grey would be a custom item and would have a similar, custom-made (translated: high) price tag.