"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[Eclipse]

There was some pretty strong backchannel that the metal grade issue was being reconsidered benevolently by the USAF when HWSRN ram-rodded the CSU, which resulted in that benevolence evaporating.

I could not care less about what the grade looks like, or is made of.  I just want a uniform that fits 100% of the needs of 100% of the membership, and makes us all look "uniform".

[SarDragon]

AMEN!  :clap:

[RickFranz]

I could not care less about what the grade looks like, or is made of.  I just want a uniform that fits 100% of the needs of 100% of the membership, and makes us all look "uniform".

I think that should be the goal we work towards!!!

[wuzafuzz]

I didn't call you a liar, I said you were lying about the facts, even if it was by implication rather than bold faced.

What?!?!  I'm not calling you a liar, just saying that you lied?  Reminds me of the old Richard Pryor act, "I wasn't running, I was walking REALLY fast..."     (paraphrased)

Come on, if someone makes a statement they honestly believe, they are NOT lying.  They may be WRONG or even DEAD WRONG, but everyone we disagree with isn't a liar.  I'm not making excuses for liars (I'm an honesty freak!) but use the term when it's appropriate.

There are some worthy conversations happening here, let them continue without the stone throwing.  And...once you say something, own it, or correct it.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[sparks]

Having a uniform that can work for 100% of seniors and cadets is an admirable goal. How can CAP do that with the wide (no pun) range of sizes and shapes in CAP.? Many senior members can't wear the Air Force uniform due to either size or facial hair. Same problem with Air Force style flight suits. I have four in my closet that are too small because I'm out of shape. I know the argument about getting in shape. I've had that talk with myself many times. I've actually done it then reverted back to being too big again. Maybe next time it will work!
The CAP dark blue flight suit and field uniform is one solution already on the books. Making it exclusive would bring lots of arguments from those not wanting to give up the military style field uniform but everyone would look the same in the field. Next, non-filed uniformity offers few choices.  It's either the Air Force style or corporate grey slacks/polo or white shirt. Those could be uniform if cadets and seniors had separate requirements for meeting (UOD).  Cadets wear the Air Force style and seniors the corporate for UOD, more unhappiness I suspect.   
Maybe a look to other services would provide help.  How does the Coast Guard Aux handle out of shape members?  Does it have uniform options for those who can't meet military height and weight requirements?

[Eclipse]

Having a uniform that can work for 100% of seniors and cadets is an admirable goal. How can CAP do that with the wide (no pun) range of sizes and shapes in CAP.? Many senior members can't wear the Air Force uniform due to either size or facial hair.

Moving to a military-ized corporate uniform for all seniors, or adjusting the whites to have a military-ized jacket solves this issue.

Maybe a look to other services would provide help.  How does the Coast Guard Aux handle out of shape members?

They don't restrict uniform based on weight, though I believe grooming is an issue, which is probably the reasonable compromise we're going to have to make.

[lordmonar]

Having a uniform that can work for 100% of seniors and cadets is an admirable goal. How can CAP do that with the wide (no pun) range of sizes and shapes in CAP.? Many senior members can't wear the Air Force uniform due to either size or facial hair. Same problem with Air Force style flight suits. I have four in my closet that are too small because I'm out of shape. I know the argument about getting in shape. I've had that talk with myself many times. I've actually done it then reverted back to being too big again. Maybe next time it will work!
The CAP dark blue flight suit and field uniform is one solution already on the books. Making it exclusive would bring lots of arguments from those not wanting to give up the military style field uniform but everyone would look the same in the field. Next, non-filed uniformity offers few choices.  It's either the Air Force style or corporate grey slacks/polo or white shirt. Those could be uniform if cadets and seniors had separate requirements for meeting (UOD).  Cadets wear the Air Force style and seniors the corporate for UOD, more unhappiness I suspect.   
Maybe a look to other services would provide help.  How does the Coast Guard Aux handle out of shape members?  Does it have uniform options for those who can't meet military height and weight requirements?

But that is the crux of the problem.

The CG has no problems with the CGAUX wearing their uniform (with specific changes to rank and insignia).  They don't seem to have a problem with their auxillary being out of weight and grooming standards.  But unfortunately for CAP the USAF is not the CG.  It is the USAF that has the problem with our fat and fuzzies.

I understand the heartburn people will feel about loosing their USAF uniforms.  But it really comes down to a matter of priorities.   When it comes to uniforms....what is our goal?  Is the purpose of the uniform there to allow people to feel good about themselves or is it to help generate a sense in unity and professionalism?

That has always been my hang up with CAP uniforms....even before the CSU/TPU.

So....let the cadets keep the USAF style uniforms and the officers adopt some sort of uniform that makes the majority of our members and the USAF happy (trying to make EVERYONE happy just won't work so I'm not even going to try ).

Killing the CSU was not the way I would have gone.....but I understand and accept that is was probably the best decission in veiw of the USAF's concerns over the uniform.  So far so good.  Now we need to go the next step and get with the USAF and make a CAP uniform.....and move everyone to it.

Yes there will be some hurt feelings.....getting some members out of their USAF blues/flight suits/BDUs will be a PITA....but why are we here?  We are here to do a mission.  Uniforms are supposed to make our mission easier.  If it does not (which I think is the case currently) it is time to dump it and get one that does).

[Eclipse]

Yes there will be some hurt feelings.....getting some members out of their USAF blues/flight suits/BDUs will be a PITA....but why are we here?  We are here to do a mission.  Uniforms are supposed to make our mission easier.  If it does not (which I think is the case currently) it is time to dump it and get one that does).

I don't think you'd even need to address the flightsuits or field uniforms.

The USAF will be off the BDU's soon, so just let us keep those, and a green flightsuit is so ubiquitous to GA that if you pulled the grade and
stay with leather patches (or a very distinctive cloth patch) you're good there, too.

The biggest point of contention and issue seems to be the formal dress uniforms, which is also where those of us who need that option have the most issue with non-uniformity.

I'd love to see a mission base with everyone in the same color and style, but its the formal pictures, formations, and related activities that make me cringe the most.

[MIKE]

The CG has no problems with the CGAUX wearing their uniform (with specific changes to rank and insignia).  They don't seem to have a problem with their auxillary being out of weight and grooming standards.  But unfortunately for CAP the USAF is not the CG.  It is the USAF that has the problem with our fat and fuzzies.

IIRC, the uniforms go through the CG uniform board.  The new standardized cloth insignia for the ODU is one example.  I think more stuff comes down from the CG than goes up from Auxies requesting something.  The AUXMAN has the flexibility to adjust built in when something new is added to the USCG uniform reg.  The Chief Director (a CAPT) posts the uniform ALCOASTs because they apply to Auxies as well.  And there is a CDR who serves as Director for  each district who will also pass the stuff down.

Not to mention you will find the DIRAUX for district and staff will be present at a lot of events, and more CG brass show up at conferences and such.  More-so than their counterparts would in the CAP context.

[Nolan Teel]

Is there anyone else out there tired of talking about the CSU?  I think were due for a Command Patch change!  Lets get a jump start on talking about that!

[sparks]

If the command patch thought doesn't jump start more discussion how about "aux on aux off" or whether to wear a wing patch.

Also, Jan 1 is only a few weeks away so it's time for a new 60-1 and 39-1, happy new year!

[Hawk200]

What?!?!  I'm not calling you a liar, just saying that you lied?  Reminds me of the old Richard Pryor act, "I wasn't running, I was walking REALLY fast..."     (paraphrased)

Come on, if someone makes a statement they honestly believe, they are NOT lying.  They may be WRONG or even DEAD WRONG, but everyone we disagree with isn't a liar.  I'm not making excuses for liars (I'm an honesty freak!) but use the term when it's appropriate.

Lying is a verb, an action. Liar is a noun, a thing (a person to be specific). An action does not define an object.

The statement made about McLarty was "You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's."

The statement was blatantly untrue, the person referenced did not and would not have such issues. The poster willingly maligned someone by claiming that McLarty had negative feelings that one, he couldn't know; and two, was an attempt to discount McLarty's input by twisting it into an unrelated issue. Can you tell me that the poster honestly believed it?

[mmouw]

I am not sure if this was covered by an earlier post, but I am curious what Vanguard is thinking about all of this? I am not overly concerned with them but with the number of changes that the members have to contend with on a consistent basis, Vanguard also has to make available those items, which I only assume cost them much more money than the individual member. When will they make the decision to stop stocking items and have them made to order? It already takes enough time to get what I assume they have in stock. If uniform items where made to order, there would be a 2 month wait for each order.

I don't disagree with what happened, just thankful I waited this time before spending the money to get current with the uniforms.

[Eclipse]

I am not sure if this was covered by an earlier post, but I am curious what Vanguard is thinking about all of this? I am not overly concerned with them but with the number of changes that the members have to contend with on a consistent basis, Vanguard also has to make available those items, which I only assume cost them much more money than the individual member. When will they make the decision to stop stocking items and have them made to order? It already takes enough time to get what I assume they have in stock. If uniform items where made to order, there would be a 2 month wait for each order.

It was mentioned, but of course we have no one from VG to comment authoritatively.

The jackets were removed from their website, so you can't actually buy them right now, and someone commented here that CAP's agreement with them is such that CAP has to purchase overstock in situations like these.

From my experience and others', it appears that these jackets were made J-I-T or close to it, especially more unusual sizes.  Wait times of weeks to months were not unusual.

[RiverAux]

The CG has no problems with the CGAUX wearing their uniform (withspecific changes to rank and insignia).  They don't seem to have aproblem with their auxillary being out of weight and groomingstandards.  But unfortunately for CAP the USAF is not the CG.  It isthe USAF that has the problem with our fat and fuzzies.

Just to be clear, there is a CG Aux regulation requiring that those in the CG Aux uniform present a trim, military appearance (or words to that effect), but they have no specific height/weight requirements.  My personal feeling is that the reg is so vague that it is impossible to enforce.  What is a military appearance in one person's eyes could be an obese slob to another.  Since there is no objective criteria no one is willing to put themselves out on a limb and tell someone that they can't wear the uniform.  I've been surprised that the CG hasn't enacted something more specific, but that would just start everyone down the same road CAP and the AF have followed regarding uniforms.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Maybe CG has seen what has/is happening at CAP and said "We don't want anything like that!"

[NCRblues]

You mean someone pays attention to cap......? your crazy man 

[billford1]

Is there anyone else out there tired of talking about the CSU?  I think were due for a Command Patch change!  Lets get a jump start on talking about that!

Please; Just change the channel.

[Spike]

What?!?!  I'm not calling you a liar, just saying that you lied?  Reminds me of the old Richard Pryor act, "I wasn't running, I was walking REALLY fast..."     (paraphrased)

Come on, if someone makes a statement they honestly believe, they are NOT lying.  They may be WRONG or even DEAD WRONG, but everyone we disagree with isn't a liar.  I'm not making excuses for liars (I'm an honesty freak!) but use the term when it's appropriate.

Lying is a verb, an action. Liar is a noun, a thing (a person to be specific). An action does not define an object.

The statement made about McLarty was "You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's."

The statement was blatantly untrue, the person referenced did not and would not have such issues. The poster willingly maligned someone by claiming that McLarty had negative feelings that one, he couldn't know; and two, was an attempt to discount McLarty's input by twisting it into an unrelated issue. Can you tell me that the poster honestly believed it?

OMG!  Have you ever heard sarcasm before?  You are now twisting my words to suit some weird fantasy playing out in your tiny brain.  Stop telling people what I mean by what I type.  You are NOT my interpret or.  If I needed one, I would pay for a person worth more than you in terms of demeanor, skill and knowledge.

You just can't leave things lie pages ago can you? 

This whole discussion is ridiculous, and even more so with people like you going off on tangents that have no relevance to the discussion about the CSU. 

Grow up......for your sake and ours.  I already took you to PM once, you just can't get enough can you??

[Hawk200]

sarcasm: 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain 2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm

Almost 27 hours. Longer than I thought it would be.