"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[JayT]

..........I will say this As an AF member, I had quite a bit of heartburn over wearing AF officer rank insignia.

Wow.  You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's.  Metal rank was everywhere, yet the AF seemed to be OK with it.

It is now obvious that you're not, and never have been Air Force. Hard rank is not what McLarty was referring to.

It's also obvious that you're looking to create problems by deliberately lying about facts.

OK Man, I get you don't like what I have to say.  But calling me a liar and telling me what I was, is or am is rude, and ridiculous.   

If McLarty had heartburn over "wearing AF Officer Rank insignia", he must be hurting wearing "US" cutouts on the CAP AF Style Uniform, along with the Uniform itself.

Unless I'm mistaken, McLarty is an enlisted man in the USAF............

[Hawk200]

OK Man, I get you don't like what I have to say.  But calling me a liar and telling me what I was, is or am is rude, and ridiculous.

I didn't call you a liar, I said you were lying about the facts, even if it was by implication rather than bold faced. Your statement implies that  General Courter directly and intentionally demeaned those not meeting weight as "Fatties". 

You and a few others are deliberately, and willingly mispresenting facts and attributing thoughts to a level of the chain of command to which you are not privy to. It is one thing to speculate, it is another thing entirely to make the statement: "They're saying xxxx about us!" Making such a statement is a lie when you don't know better. Most of us with military background know that a single person might be foolish enough to make such a statement, but they would also be dealt with harshly. Considering Equal Opportunity laws, such a thing would never go unanswered.

If McLarty had heartburn over "wearing AF Officer Rank insignia", he must be hurting wearing "US" cutouts on the CAP AF Style Uniform, along with the Uniform itself.

I don't know McLarty personally, but there's a few things I do know about him.

One thing is that he wears an Air Force uniform. Which means he has a service dress in his closet that had US insignia on it (along with some enlisted stripes). I would suspect that if the allowance for us to wear it occurred while he possesed that Air Force uniform, then he probably pulled them off that uniform to put on the CAP one until he acquired another set.

So, you're made up supposition that he was "having a heart attack wearing US cutouts" was blatantly malicious and foolish. It has the appearance of an immature attempt to belittle a persons veiwpoint so that it will be ignored. Such attempts usually backfire.

Now, I'm under the belief that you have no experience in the military due to the fact that you don't appear to know that the blue rank insignia epaulet slides are those of an Air Force officer. AF officers take them, put them on their shirts/blouses, wear it to work, and are in proper uniform. Hence any CAP officer that is wearing the CSU is wearing an official US Air Force insignia.

As of the this post, the countdown begins....

[NCRblues]

Not trying to be rude, and I agree with you hawk, but I can't seem to figure out what were counting down to?

[Pumbaa]

I think the countdown is too a lock and or the sunset of the TPU...

And just think I have behaved in this thread!

[Hawk200]

Not trying to be rude, and I agree with you hawk, but I can't seem to figure out what were counting down to?

Give it a little while.

And no, I'm not counting to a lock.

[FW]

I would like to give some closure on this thread (even though I know it is hopeless )
There are several "bigwigs" writing out agenda items for the winter NB meeting which address many of the concerns of this and other very active uniform threads.  It seems our activity on CT has reached the heavens and was heard.  I hope they do see the light of day and can be fully vetted with members input, staff input and, Air Force input.  If done right, it may be the start of something very good.  We can only hope.

[NCRblues]

When is the winter NB meeting?

[FW]

In about 3 months.

[LtCol057]

Something tells me the winter NB meeting is going to have a LARGE attendance of members. 

[NCRblues]

If it's close to me I'll be there.

[High Speed Low Drag]

In 25 days, this thread has generated 730 posts, which is an average of 29 posts a day, or a little more than one an hour.  It has also spawned a half-dozen other threads.  This is what discussion does, it generates people thinking, talking, and agreeing to take action.

What does this tell us?  That the uniform is a hot issue with a LOT of people, and people are passionate about it.  What we wear says a lot about us. There are tons of studies done that reflect the psychology of how a police uniform effects people, but one of the big things found is that it didn't matter how fat the officer was, it was how the officer wore it that determined how they were percieved by people.  Tall, short, skinny, overweight, clean shaven, and fuzzy, we all want to wear a good looking uniform that makes a positive impression on the people we are interacting with.

[Eclipse]

Tall, short, skinny, overweight, clean shaven, and fuzzy, we all want to wear a good looking uniform that makes a positive impression on the people we are interacting with.

Spot on!  And because these uniforms cost us money, our needs, pocketbooks, and yes, feelings need to be the first thing considered when adding, subtracting or changing what we can wear. 

[NCRblues]

You know, as we went through these hundreds of post, I started out very happy the CSU was gone anyway it went. Then I started to change my mind. I am still against the CSU always have been and will be, but I am against how it left and the lack of forward thinking by our leadership. Some of you changed my mind, I really do believe that the members who can't wear the AF style need a uniform that looks decent and allows awards to be displayed.

[billford1]

I'm hoping that some folks at NB can sit down with AF folks and work something out. If they can slow down and make some changes without throwing the blue aviator uniform out it will help a lot. I realize there are some who don't understand this but it really matters a lot. Uniforms have been too much of a distraction for a long time.

[a2capt]

Everyone that goes to the NB needs to wear the CSU and make sure they are *everywhere* ..

[arajca]

the members who can't wear the AF style need a uniform that looks decent and allows awards to be displayed.

Which is the primary reason why the CSU has become as popular as it has despite how it brought in being.

[Slim]

the members who can't wear the AF style need a uniform that looks decent and allows awards to be displayed.

Which is the primary reason why the CSU has become as popular as it has despite how it brought in being.

FACT!

Speculation, rumor, weird noises, or facts aside, the CSU was created for one reason.  HWSRN wanted metal grade insignia on service dress.  The Air Force shot him down, so he created a distinctive, unique-to-CAP uniform featuring metal rank.  He then proposed it to the NB in such a fashion that it was guaranteed to be approved (though I'm pretty confident that some dirty politics were hinted at at the time).  So, he got his uniform with metal grade, it was changed two or three times (at the urging/suggestion of the Air Force) before it stabilized to what we have now.

In the grand scheme of things, what the uniform did was put everyone on a level playing field.  We could all show off our accomplishments-our bling, if you will.  But more than that, it brought us all one step closer to being uniform.  Though I'm sure it was unintentional, that's what it did.  Although, when grooming standards were applied to it, I felt like it drove the membership further apart.

700+ posts later, I still don't like the decision, but I'll salute and execute when the time comes.  In the meantime, I'm hoping that the NB can come up with something that will take the place of the CSU, without raising the ire of the Air Force.

[Nick]

I let this thread simmer on a bit before I responded, just because I wanted to see where it went.

Hawk's spot on ... I've been in a CAP uniform since 1997; an AF uniform since 2003.  As the regs have changed, I have changed the US lapel insignia on my CAP service coat to the original CAP lapel insignia I wore as a cadet.  Which lapel insignia I wore didn't bother me a bit, because...

CAP members are distinct in their rank by the epaulets they wear.  We have had epaulets with distinctive CAP insignia since long before I had any knowledge of CAP (regardless of what color the epaulet was).  All of a sudden, the CAP/CC (and entourage) decides that stock AF officer epaulets are sufficient for wear on a CAP uniform and implements that policy.  I'm sorry, but that doesn't pass the sniff test for me, nor obviously did it for others in the AF/A3/5 community.  THAT (and that alone) is my beef -- arbitrarily implementing a uniform that, for lack of a better term, steals the AF uniform to pass it off as their own, by simply changing out the shirt to be used.  Like I have advocated many times previously, had the existing, approved CAP officer epaulet been used, I strongly suspect the backlash would have been much less than it actually was.  That's all I was saying.

But I do thank everyone for drawing my own conclusions and advertising them for me.

[AlphaSigOU]

I let this thread simmer on a bit before I responded, just because I wanted to see where it went... CAP members are distinct in their rank by the epaulets they wear.  We have had epaulets with distinctive CAP insignia since long before I had any knowledge of CAP (regardless of what color the epaulet was).  All of a sudden, the CAP/CC (and entourage) decides that stock AF officer epaulets are sufficient for wear on a CAP uniform and implements that policy.  I'm sorry, but that doesn't pass the sniff test for me, nor obviously did it for others in the AF/A3/5 community.  THAT (and that alone) is my beef -- arbitrarily implementing a uniform that, for lack of a better term, steals the AF uniform to pass it off as their own, by simply changing out the shirt to be used.  Like I have advocated many times previously, had the existing, approved CAP officer epaulet been used, I strongly suspect the backlash would have been much less than it actually was.  That's all I was saying.

I gotta agree with Nick; having been an old-school CAPer and prior AF enlisted, I always was a little 'hinky' about wearing RealAirForce® shoulder marks and U.S. cutouts on a CAP corporate uniform; it probably would not have been a problem if they went back to blue shoulder marks with CAP embroidered or using the existing gray shoulder marks. About the only difference between RealAirForce® and CSU was the cut of the jacket, silver sleeve braid and CAP cutouts on the lapel; something the powers that be on the blue side of the five-sided puzzle palace was giving 'em raging heartburn. Yes I bought one of the CSU service dress jackets and put it to good use; right now it's in a closet in Las Vegas - I didn't bring it with me when I moved to Kwaj, for obvious reasons. (SOFA being one of them.)

Maybe cooler heads will prevail when the NB meets in March and we can hash out this debacle to the satisfaction of CAP and Ma Blue. I don't think the CSU will totally die, but it'll probably undergo a radical transformation. I wouldn't be surprised if it is worn with gray trousers (to a better uniform spec) and gray shoulder marks, and the officer sleeve braid gets whacked. But that's only my opinion, and we all know what they say comparing about opinions.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I'm hoping that some folks at NB can sit down with AF folks and work something out.

I think this will be the Prime Directive. 

An adversarial relationship with the AF will only worsen with CAP saying "this is our uniform, and we're really PO'd at what you did!"

The more we seem like petulant children the less the AF will want to work with us on anything.

If the CSU was indeed forced through because of the desire to have metal rank (more on that later) and blue epaulettes again, then we have got to tread lightly with regard to anything to do with uniforms, especially since the AF has made it clear that they will have authority over CAP-distinctive uniforms as well.  The illustrations that have been posted here showing a blue service coat with the grey/white dress (with grey epaulettes) are quite good, but it won't mean a thing if CAP insists "we want this to replace the CSU" and the AF says "no."

Face it, we're not in a very good bargaining position right now.

I remember back around '95-'96 when we got the grey epaulettes, nameplates and "U.S." cutouts.  My former squadron CC was quite well informed about doings at Maxwell (he knew General Anderson personally) told me that CAP had raised the issue of metal grade insignia, and the Air Force's reply was:

"You will never get metal rank back."

Right now I'm in a "wait-and-see" mode as to what's going to happen...will the CSU be reinstated as is (sure, right), reinstated in a modified form (tossup), or indeed be headed for the sunset (most likely).