"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[FW]

This thread just won't die a peaceful death.  All we're doing now is repeat the same stuff over and over and over and over and; slap... sorry my fingers just wouldn't stop.

On a more serious note:  The Board of Governors meeting is Weds.  I wonder if this issue will be brought up.  Maybe on Thursday we'll know.....

Until then, I'm gonna stay quiet about this subject.

[Earhart1971]

Hawk, you are spending a lot of time typing and rebutting. 

Take a break.

There will be a day in court on this trust me.

I have valid views shared by many.

[Hawk200]

Hawk, you are spending a lot of time typing and rebutting. 

Take a break.

I'm not rebutting anything. I'm trying to get across that you don't have any place to demand an explanation of the Air Force for their actions. A fact that seems to escape you. You can dismiss reality all you want, it doesn't change it.

You're just like the guy at work that tells me he wants to join the Army, but doesn't want to carry a gun, doesn't want to go to boot, wants to work shifts that he chooses. He actually thinks he can do that. Joining CAP is like joining the military; you join the organization, it doesn't join you. You don't have the right to join an organization and tell them what you want.

There will be a day in court on this trust me.

I have valid views shared by many.

You have opinions, many of which are not rooted in any kind of fact. As one of the posters above put it, you're stamping your feet and demanding that Daddy do what you want. and by doing so you're furthering the image of many CAP members as brattish children that have no self discipline.

And "many" does not equal all or even a majority no matter how much you claim.

"Day in court"? What are you gonna do? Sue the Air Force? Have fun. Let me know when so I can put the newspaper writeup next to the one of the guy that sued Santa Claus, and the kid that sued the Easter Bunny. 'Cause it's gonna give me and many other people the same laugh.

[NCRblues]

Why does it need it day in court?? What is it going to accomplish by revisiting it? You think cap leadership looks stupid or un open about things now, my god wait till someone tries to bring it back. If it is brought back, mark my words, berry boards will look like candy land. We no longer live in a time where games are accepted by the Military, after 9/11 they won't play with us anymore if we look like idiots. This uniform problem already looks like we're playing games, and if it's revisited.....I'm worried about cap now, truly worried.

[Spike]

I really think the issue here is simple. 

Those that wear the AF style, have invested in a uniform that makes them look like part of the AF team.
Those that invested in the Corporate Service Uniform also believed they were investing in a uniform that made them look like part of the AF team. 

NOW....for those FAT members or those choosing not to wear AF style, that option is gone, and we are being told we are in fact second class citizens, you can find a quote in Courters PowerPoint that elaborates on that.  The moment she wrote that those that can not wear AF style believed they had a right to something more military looking.....sealed the deal.

Maybe some members were tired of being forced to wear a uniform that set them apart from everyone else in a drastic way.  Perhaps the Corporate Service Uniform gave those members an option to look more like those in AF style.

I believe that the real masterminds behind this were those members wearing AF style that hated the fact that those choosing to were the CSU had REAL Air Force ranks slides and metal rank insignia.  I think that just ate away at them so much that they caused this.

Simple fix.....

Put everone in a mix of Army and Navy clothes and eliminate AF style all together.  Heaven forbid some person mistakes a CAP member for a military member and says "hello".

How the heck did CAP get away with wearing air force EVERYTHING (rank, pants, shirt caps etc) and allowing overweight members in AF clothing for almost 50 years?  The AF must have taken a HUGE public affairs hit during that time.  Recruiting must have suffered, and I bet they could no longer fly their Aircraft.

This whole thing is ridiculous.  Has any ever seen the "US Army Cadet Corps"??  You can not tell the difference between one of their members and a Soldier until you are 12 inches away reading the "Army Cadets" branchtape.  How can a organization, not officially affiliated with the Army get away with that??

Heck, the Boy and Girl Scouts have more military looking uniforms than CAP. 

To the poster that said "the Air Force owns us".  You are wrong.  The Air Force actually provides much less for CAP than is generally known.  All we are for the AF is a pipe for recruits, and cheap way for them to carry out a Federal Mission of Inland Search and Rescue.  If they could find a civilian contractor cheaper than CAP, we would be out in a second. 

For the poster that said we should salute and execute......while we may play "military" we are not.  We can express our displeasure about anything we want.  When the phase out date comes, we will all obey the policy, but you better believe in the meantime we can and will make our dislike for this decision known to our local leaders, and in some cases the Air Force itself.

Sorry about such a long post.  BTW, I wear AF Style and Corporate as well as the CSU.  I like having options.  But to be told you are less of a person than the skinny folks, and told to wear the "fat suits", that is just plain mean and uncalled for in 2009.  The Air Force needs to realize they have many more fatties than CAP does, and loosen up a bit.     

[NCRblues]

I believe that the real masterminds behind this were those members wearing AF style that hated the fact that those choosing to were the CSU had REAL Air Force ranks slides and metal rank insignia.  I think that just ate away at them so much that they caused this.

Thanks for the direct insult spike. Oh yes it was a vast conspiracy of AF style wearing members, me included, we meet every 2nd Tuesday at the local VFW.

[Nick]

I believe that the real masterminds behind this were those members wearing AF style that hated the fact that those choosing to were the CSU had REAL Air Force ranks slides and metal rank insignia.  I think that just ate away at them so much that they caused this.

Since I didn't do anything to motivate this whole conflict and I can confidently attest to that, I will say this ...

As an AF member, I had quite a bit of heartburn over wearing AF officer rank insignia.  Had the CSU been a white shirt, AF blue trousers, AF flight cap, and the same gray rank insignia and nametag as worn by senior members in the AF uniform -- I would've been very content, and I suspect many others would have been as well.  But when the only difference between a full-blown AF officer uniform and the CSU was the shirt (ok, and a second line on the name tag), it was a bit too close for call.  And we saw the final result.

Edit: Moral of the story: We all know why this uniform was created.  We all know it was done the wrong way.  With a little more cooperation, flexibility and what not ... today we would have an alternate uniform acceptable to everybody.  But no ... instead, we have a hot topic on the AF's radar and being debated at all levels in CAP (with 707 replies and 11,200 views on CAPTalk if that's any indication for you).  All because of a frickin' uniform.  Does this ring a bell to anyone (ca. early 1990's)?

[wuzafuzz]

This whole thing is ridiculous.  Has any ever seen the "US Army Cadet Corps"??  You can not tell the difference between one of their members and a Soldier until you are 12 inches away reading the "Army Cadets" branchtape.  How can a organization, not officially affiliated with the Army get away with that??

Because the Army lets them.  Naval Sea Cadets and Coast Guard Auxiliary are in the same boat, no pun intended.  Perhaps others.  The Air Force made a different decision and are within their rights to do so.  The reason for their decision is in question, but not their right to make it.

To the poster that said "the Air Force owns us".  You are wrong.  The Air Force actually provides much less for CAP than is generally known.

They get to control our uniforms.  In that regard they do, in fact, "own us."  Most of us, myself included, do understand the CAP corporation and the sometimes auxiliary status.  Basic Level 1 stuff.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Gentlemen, and any ladies who may be reading this:

This is not worth descending into insults.  We are fellow officers - CAP officers.

A decision has been made.  Whether or not we like it, we have to live with it.  Bickering about it is not constructive, and does not present any sort of professionalism to the Air Force or to the general public.  This is a public forum.  You do not know who may be reading this.

If I have to shell out for a new/used AF blue shirt and service coat, so be it.  I wear the utility jumpsuit, blue BDU's or BDU's most of the time anyway.  My paperwork does not care what uniform I'm wearing.

I am not happy about the decision either.  But it is not worth having a go at one another like this.

[High Speed Low Drag]

It sounds like we are almost all on the same page.  This is what a good discussion is does when it is allowed to play out and not get locked too early.  I hope others can see it too. 
*** Thanks to the mods for not locking this up 400 posts ago ****

I also agree that we should not revisit the issue of the CSU (TPU). (And I did shell out a lot of bucks for one) Let it die so that we may move forward with an even better uniform.   I think CAP would get a lot more mileage out of the AF if we did.  Sometimes you have to prune the branches to let the tree grow.  BUT, at the same time, we should NOT give up what we believe in – a sharp uniform that even the AF’s plague (fat & fuzzies) would look good in.

Here are a couple of pics that has been discussed in Design a new CAP Distinctive uniform. 

Current


As you can see, it is not that radical and nothing like the AF uniform.  Cyborg (and any others) I enjoy Photoshop and if you want to PM me, I can help you illustrate your words. ** Shout-out to kd8gua, these pics are collabrative.

To all – we have had a hard, difficult time on this thread, but in the end, we are more alike than different.  Lets work together to coordinate a groundswell of support so the leadership will want to listen to us.

(Cum-by-ya playing gently in the background, a thousand lighters flaming, …)

[NCRblues]

high speed low drag,
On this sir, we can agree. Let's let the CSU/tpu version die to not rile up the air force (or anyone else for that matter) and in a few months (once everything has cooled) approach the air force with a well designed sharp looking DISTINCTIVE uniform. I would be behind that 100%!

[wuzafuzz]

Getting everyone in one professional looking uniform would be a huge win.  The cynical part of me wonders if it is possible.  The uniform police and branding guy in me says it should be a no-brainer for all of us to be, well, uniform.  The zillion dollar question is the form it would take.

[AlphaSigOU]

And the best thing I like about the uniform is that it hints - strongly - of the heritage 'pinks and greens' WWII Army Air Corps uniform, in gray and dark (LAPD) blue. It's distinctive, yet sharp in appearance.

Let's get on board with a proposal that will work for the membership and also keep Ma Blue happy.

[Spike]

..........I will say this As an AF member, I had quite a bit of heartburn over wearing AF officer rank insignia.

Wow.  You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's.  Metal rank was everywhere, yet the AF seemed to be OK with it. 

I seriously doubt the AF will ever let Fat or bearded into any "military style" uniform.  For the poster making up neat pictures of different uniforms, go back and read Courter's PowerPoint, and understand that the AF as well as she, says that FAT and Fuzzies have no right to demand a uniform other than the blazer combo.  That they will always be relegated to Polo's and Grays.  (Honestly, I don't think Fatties demanded anything)

I am tired of this now, it is a disappointment, and makes me very unsure of the capabilities of our leadership and very sure of how the Air Force feels of CAP.  Now it is back to AF style for me. 

[Eclipse]

For the poster making up neat pictures of different uniforms, go back and read Courter's PowerPoint, and understand that the AF as well as she, says that FAT and Fuzzies have no right to demand a uniform other than the blazer combo.  That they will always be relegated to Polo's and Grays.  (Honestly, I don't think Fatties demanded anything)

That's not what it said, and characterizing it that way is a deliberate attempt to raise ire about something for no reason.

[Hawk200]

..........I will say this As an AF member, I had quite a bit of heartburn over wearing AF officer rank insignia.

Wow.  You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's.  Metal rank was everywhere, yet the AF seemed to be OK with it.

It is now obvious that you're not, and never have been Air Force. Hard rank is not what McLarty was referring to.

It's also obvious that you're looking to create problems by deliberately lying about facts.

[Nick]

Right.  I'm talking about blue shoulder marks (before anyone starts, yes I know CAP used to have those as well, but at least there was the CAP cutout on them to be distinctive).  But, BITD around the 60's and 70's, there was a different culture (read: AD AF officers filling CAP billets) at CAP NHQ to vet this kind of stuff before it 1) ever got approved, 2) put on paper, and 3) mailed out to units as a supplement.  These days all it takes is one person in the right position to email an ICL and it's treated as scripture... and since the 60's and 70's, we have had very turbulent periods with the AF due to uniform issues which those at the puzzle palace and Maxwell recall every time a uniform proposal or policy change comes up.

These days, thanks to history, this entire subject needs to be addressed and coordinated very carefully and not just shooting from the hip with a machine gun like with the CSU.

[MIKE]

*** Thanks to the mods for not locking this up 400 posts ago ****

But at post # 320? 

[Spike]

..........I will say this As an AF member, I had quite a bit of heartburn over wearing AF officer rank insignia.

Wow.  You would have had a heart attack if you were a member back in the 60's or 70's.  Metal rank was everywhere, yet the AF seemed to be OK with it.

It is now obvious that you're not, and never have been Air Force. Hard rank is not what McLarty was referring to.

It's also obvious that you're looking to create problems by deliberately lying about facts.

OK Man, I get you don't like what I have to say.  But calling me a liar and telling me what I was, is or am is rude, and ridiculous.   

If McLarty had heartburn over "wearing AF Officer Rank insignia", he must be hurting wearing "US" cutouts on the CAP AF Style Uniform, along with the Uniform itself. 

[Nolan Teel]

Post #322