"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[wuzafuzz]

If CAP were to really get rid of the military style distinctive uniforms, the bbdu, utility uniform, and blue flight suit need to go away. They are all military style uniforms. The blue flightsuit violates the low light requirement, as does the utility uniform. When can we expect those unifomrs to be pulled?

The same argument extends to the AF style service uniform and the mess dress.  The low light distinctiveness is nearly non-existent with those.   AFI 10-2701, if applied across the board, would seem to apply to those even more than the Corporates.

I can only conclude the AF doesn't want our rounder and hairier folks in any military style uniform.  They have no apparent problem with slim clean shaven folks looking nearly identical to AF officers.  In that light I'm surprised the grey & whites remain.

[High Speed Low Drag]

And, if those slides are legit, then should we roll over and play dead?

A case of salute and execute. A paramilitary organization is not a democracy. We do what we're told, or we use the door.

As I have said before - when the changout date takes effect I will salute and execute.  What I am saying is that should we roll-over and play dead about not even attempting to push up a new CAP very-distinctive uniform?

[PA Guy]

I think some may have not understood my post or I failed to communicate clearly.

The AF doesn't have a problem, at this time, with CAP seniors wearing the AF style uniform as long as they aren't fat and or fuzzy.  If you are of the fat/fuzzy persuasion they don't want you in any military appearing uniform in my opinion.  The CSU just pushed all of their buttons.

Cadets wearing the AF style uniform has never been an issue, at least until they reach 18.

The AF could care less about CAP bling when it comes to protecting their image.

This whole thing revolves around the corporate uniforms and protecting the AF image.  If you don't fit their physical image they don't want you in a military appearing uniform.

[Hawk200]

What I am saying is that should we roll-over and play dead about not even attempting to push up a new CAP very-distinctive uniform?

For the time being, yes. One is getting phased out, why add a fourth uniform type? It's just going to compound the problem. Trying for another is going to bring further issues. Sometimes patience can bear far more fruit.

From the looks of it, someone dropped the ball. As to your supposition in an earlier post, it very much seems like something that happens in todays world. If your supposition was proven to be fact, I wouldn't even blink to learn of it.

It may very well have been that the Air Force had a say in our corporate uniforms all along, but chose not to excercise that authority. Those options are not the options of the individual member, they're far above us when it comes to chain of command.

If the AF directed us to lose the CSU, how do you think they'll feel about us coming back to them and saying "Well, this is what we want!" or "You're going to tell us why we can't have this!"? How do you think that is going to work?

It boils down to either you meet the requirements to wear a variation of their uniform, or they want you in something that doesn't look military. Too many people here feel that they shouldn't have to accept that, and they go on with accusations of being considered "second class citizens". I'm sure the same thing happened when the blazer was first introduced. A lot of folks feel entitled to a great deal of things in an organizaiton where membership is a privilege, not a right.

All in all, we've got a lot of cleaning up to do before we even think about asking the Air Force for anything. We carry a disgrace because of the actions of a few people, and we have some other stuff in our history that's unpleasant. We need to get our house in order. Once we do that, maybe then the Air Force might feel like like our requests are worth listening to.

[Chappie]

What I am saying is that should we roll-over and play dead about not even attempting to push up a new CAP very-distinctive uniform?

For the time being, yes. One is getting phased out, why add a fourth uniform type? It's just going to compound the problem. Trying for another is going to bring further issues. Sometimes patience can bear far more fruit.

From the looks of it, someone dropped the ball. As to your supposition in an earlier post, it very much seems like something that happens in todays world. If your supposition was proven to be fact, I wouldn't even blink to learn of it.

It may very well have been that the Air Force had a say in our corporate uniforms all along, but chose not to excercise that authority. Those options are not the options of the individual member, they're far above us when it comes to chain of command.

If the AF directed us to lose the CSU, how do you think they'll feel about us coming back to them and saying "Well, this is what we want!" or "You're going to tell us why we can't have this!"? How do you think that is going to work?

It boils down to either you meet the requirements to wear a variation of their uniform, or they want you in something that doesn't look military. Too many people here feel that they shouldn't have to accept that, and they go on with accusations of being considered "second class citizens". I'm sure the same thing happened when the blazer was first introduced. A lot of folks feel entitled to a great deal of things in an organizaiton where membership is a privilege, not a right.

All in all, we've got a lot of cleaning up to do before we even think about asking the Air Force for anything. We carry a disgrace because of the actions of a few people, and we have some other stuff in our history that's unpleasant. We need to get our house in order. Once we do that, maybe then the Air Force might feel like like our requests are worth listening to.

Well said...and with that I think this thread should be locked and the key thrown away.

[arajca]

What I am saying is that should we roll-over and play dead about not even attempting to push up a new CAP very-distinctive uniform?

For the time being, yes. One is getting phased out, why add a fourth uniform type? It's just going to compound the problem. Trying for another is going to bring further issues. Sometimes patience can bear far more fruit.

From the looks of it, someone dropped the ball. As to your supposition in an earlier post, it very much seems like something that happens in todays world. If your supposition was proven to be fact, I wouldn't even blink to learn of it.

It may very well have been that the Air Force had a say in our corporate uniforms all along, but chose not to excercise that authority. Those options are not the options of the individual member, they're far above us when it comes to chain of command.

If the AF directed us to lose the CSU, how do you think they'll feel about us coming back to them and saying "Well, this is what we want!" or "You're going to tell us why we can't have this!"? How do you think that is going to work?

It boils down to either you meet the requirements to wear a variation of their uniform, or they want you in something that doesn't look military. Too many people here feel that they shouldn't have to accept that, and they go on with accusations of being considered "second class citizens". I'm sure the same thing happened when the blazer was first introduced. A lot of folks feel entitled to a great deal of things in an organizaiton where membership is a privilege, not a right.

All in all, we've got a lot of cleaning up to do before we even think about asking the Air Force for anything. We carry a disgrace because of the actions of a few people, and we have some other stuff in our history that's unpleasant. We need to get our house in order. Once we do that, maybe then the Air Force might feel like like our requests are worth listening to.

So your point is for those of us who just got screwed to sit and shut up.

What would you say if the AF came out an said no more AF blues for senior members? Would take the same approach?

[Hawk200]

So your point is for those of us who just got screwed to sit and shut up.

Since you want a blunt answer, yes. The Air Force didn't create the uniform, they didn't screw you over. We pretty much know that the person that created it did so out of defiance. He's responsible, not the Air Force. Blame the correct person for the fiasco, not the convenient one. I know it's easier, but it's also childish.

What would you say if the AF came out an said no more AF blues for senior members? Would take the same approach?

I'd be mature enough to whine about, and I'd take one of the two options I had available.

[FW]

^I think I said to give your opinions to your unit commander so it can be sent up the chain of command.  That is the best thing, IMO, to do.  Otherwise, yes.  There really isn't anything else we can do other than leave.  I hope that won't be your choice.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

All in all, we've got a lot of cleaning up to do before we even think about asking the Air Force for anything. We carry a disgrace because of the actions of a few people, and we have some other stuff in our history that's unpleasant. We need to get our house in order. Once we do that, maybe then the Air Force might feel like like our requests are worth listening to.

CAP has never been in a position to demand anything from the Air Force.  Not in 1947, not now.

A lot of the "souring" between us and the AF took place just before I joined in 1993.  I would have liked to have served in CAP before then, but I didn't, so no use wishing for might-have-been's.

We wear their uniform solely because they grant us the privilege to do so, and they can prescribe what is to be done with their uniform.

Unfortunately, for reasons of ego or otherwise, certain individuals chose to abuse that privilege, and we are the ones who have to live with the consequences.  It sucks, but that's the way it is.

The CSU was "introduced" under circumstances of which very few of us are fully aware...and, yes, it is odd it took the AF three years to act on it, but three years it was and three years it is.  All of us who sank whatever amounts of money into it are out that.  I can always try to sell my blue Captain's epaulettes on Evilbay.

The "military appearing uniforms" referenced in the AFI and by General Courter can cover a very wide range of uniforms, including the extant CAP-distinctive ones.  About the only ones I don't see falling into that category are the polo shirts.  No, CAP does not have to provide a military-style uniform for those who cannot/choose not to wear the AF-type uniform.  However, I do not believe that means a CAP-distinctive uniform has to go out of its way to be non-military(ish) looking in any way.  Even the Smurf suits had "military" aspects.

Most of you have read my hypothesis combining the extant grey/white uniform with a heavily modified CSU.  I do not mean we should go to the Air Force and say "this is what we want," or (far worse) introduce any sort of uniform change without clearing it with them first.  Using my hypothesis as an example (though not of course the only example), we (meaning the NEC, CC/CAP, BoG, etc) present a proposal to CAP-USAF for review, and then he takes it up the chain to the brass.  We give them all the time they want to review any proposal and don't bug them about it.

If the AF gives a complete thumbs-down, then we leave it at that and don't complain.

If they say "maybe, but you'll have to do this-and-this to comply," we do this-and-this to comply.

If they say "it looks great!" and green-light it, then we thank them and do our best to wear it properly.

I know there is a mindset among some in CAP that since we predate the independent AF, that somehow gives us some sort of leverage.  It doesn't.  We are their auxiliary (part-time, full-time, whatever...) and serve them.

That may sound like butt-kissing.  However, those who have spent time in the Real Military know that you do not always get things your own way in the Real Military - which is driven home the moment you arrive at basic training.  In this case, the AF gives orders and CAP takes them.  We are not equals.

Yes, we are volunteers.  But any volunteer organisation has rules (BSA, CERT, etc.) and we have to deal with what we're dealt.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^I think I said to give your opinions to your unit commander so it can be sent up the chain of command.  That is the best thing, IMO, to do.  Otherwise, yes.  There really isn't anything else we can do other than leave.  I hope that won't be your choice.

It's not enough of an issue for me to ditch the off-and-on 16+ years I've put into CAP over blue epaulettes and hard rank.

However, I am completely unskilled with Photoshop, etc., so I don't really have any way to illustrate my proposal to my squadron CC for her to take up the chain.

[FW]

^Well then, Cyborg, I guess it's "sit and shut up" 

BTW; I'm lucky I can figure out how to post on CT

[Westernslope]

What confuses me is this:

If the Natl CC was aware that this was an issue with the AF, why did she not introduce the proposal at the NEC meeting or any other NEC/NB meeting?

REMEMBER, the issue was brought up by the RMR Region Commander saying that there were too many uniform combinations - not get rid of the uniform because of AF concerns.

[ColonelJack]

Not that I expect it to matter or anything, but ...

Has anyone heard whether the hue and cry over this decision out there in the "real" CAP is as great as it is here on CAPTalk?  And if so, is it catching the ear of anyone higher up the food chain than us?

Will it matter if it does?

Jack

[Al Sayre]

Actually, I think the best tack would be for our leaders to sit down with the Air Force and try to work out a uniform that would allow our members to wear their awards etc.  Maybe I'm living in dreamland, but I believe that the Ar Force actually does appreciate what we do for them and would probably be amenable to some military type uniform that we can wear.  There is nothing wrong with submitting some proposals for consideration, and asking them for their input.  I personally liked the dark grey police style that was on the other thread (YMMV).  If we don't ask for their input and assistance, and keep handing them things like the CSU it's very easy for them to just say no.

[Al Sayre]

Not that I expect it to matter or anything, but ...

Has anyone heard whether the hue and cry over this decision out there in the "real" CAP is as great as it is here on CAPTalk?  And if so, is it catching the ear of anyone higher up the food chain than us?

Will it matter if it does?

Jack

Yes it is, at least in my Wing.  I know for a fact it has been brought to the attention of the Wing Commander and other members of the NB, NEC, and the BOG.  Yes it matters.

[Spike]

This whole thing revolves around the corporate uniforms and protecting the AF image.  If you don't fit their physical image they don't want you in a military appearing uniform.

I walk by Air Force members everyday who would not be allowed to wear the "Air Force Style" CAP Uniform because they are too FAT. 

This is a good reason for CAP and Air Force to eliminate the weight tables and start doing "circumference measurements" like in the REAL Air Force.

Other than that.....this whole situation sucks.  It sucks bad for my Senior Members who just bought the uniform, it sucks bad for those of us who liked the uniform, and it sucks for all of CAP, because to the "outside world", we look like CLOWNS with no idea how to operate. 

[NCRblues]

Agree spike, agree big time. We look like big time clowns. I know some wish for the NB to revisit this issue, but can you image how we will look to everyone when our other set of leaders change it again.... I have to say this, with caps um not so squeaky clean past, can we afford to look like we are having a civil war within the organization? Like I said in an earlier post, cap made national news during the pineda incident, then dropped off the map. I really don't think we can withstand any more bad publicity.

[Earhart1971]

No I am not accepting, with out discussion,  the Air Force Dogma on their policy on supposed confusion with the Corp Uniform, and its harmful effects or imagined problems. I do not buy that policy. .

The Air Force needs to come clean with their reasoning. A short Letter will not work.

They are playing with the Morale of a large volunteer force, and everybody I have been in contact with has been livid about this little surprise.

I think the Air Force Policy is arbitrary and not acting in the interest of a better relationship with their fine Auxillary.

I object to the entire concept and reject the Air Force Generals opinion that the Corporate Uniform causes confusion.  It does not. Again, will comply in 2011, but the membership I think needs to have detailed reason this policy came about, and I think the Air Force is a little confused, if they think this is going to go over well for the relationship.

[Hawk200]

No I am not accepting, with out discussion,  the Air Force Dogma on their policy on supposed confusion with the Corp Uniform, and its harmful effects or imagined problems. I do not buy that policy.

The Air Force needs to come clean with their reasoning. A short Letter will not work.

It's not up to us to "buy" into their policy. We do as directed, or leave. We don't really have a right to any explanation, or to even demand one, if this comes from the Air Force. If such a thing that was in their purview came from the NEC/NB, I think an explanation wouldn't hurt.

They are playing with the Morale of a large volunteer force, and everybody I have been in contact with has been livid about this little surprise.

No, they're not. They wanted a uniform gone, and pushed buttons to do it. They're not playing with your morale or making you a "second class" citizen, except in your own mind. The issue is that the uniform was something that CAP had no need of. HWSRN asked for hard rank, was told no, and this new military styled uniform appeared. I doubt it would have existed if we'd been allowed hard rank on our Service coats. If the Air Force had said yes to hard rank, you wouldn't have had a military styled uniform anyway.

I think the Air Force Policy is arbitrary and not acting in the interest of a better relationship with their fine Auxillary.

"Fine" auxiliary? That's kind of funny considering the crap our organization has had problems with in the past, and is probably generating now.

I object to the entire concept and reject the Air Force Generals opinion that the Corporate Uniform causes confusion.  It does not. Again, will comply in 2011, but the membership I think needs to have detailed reason this policy came about, and I think the Air Force is a little confused, if they think this is going to go over well for the relationship.

You may choose to reject reality, but you can't escape the consequences of rejecting reality. Including the ludicrous idea that you're entitled to a military style uniform.

I'll put forth this: any contributing member has value. But there are some facts in life. One is the fact that a miltary member is typically of moderate weight, with short hair, and is clean shaven. If you don't fit that mold, you don't look military, and you ruin any credibility you have trying to dress like it. The words people use are hypocrite, pretender, poser, fraud. Not pleasant, but fact.

[wuzafuzz]

No I am not accepting, with out discussion,  the Air Force Dogma on their policy on supposed confusion with the Corp Uniform, and its harmful effects or imagined problems. I do not buy that policy. .

I don't buy it either, I think it's really about heavyset folks in what looks like a military uniform.  But our opinions are probably completely irrelevant in the eyes of the AF.  It appears they issued some marching orders.  End of discussion for them.

The Air Force needs to come clean with their reasoning. A short Letter will not work.

Sure it will.  They simply do not have to explain themselves to our satisfaction.  Sure it would be nice, but even if they did so, it's not like we would get a vote on the matter.  THEY OWN US.  We can claim CAP corporation all day long and it will get us nowhere on this issue.

They are playing with the Morale of a large volunteer force, and everybody I have been in contact with has been livid about this little surprise.

I think the Air Force Policy is arbitrary and not acting in the interest of a better relationship with their fine Auxillary.

See my first comment above.

I object to the entire concept and reject the Air Force Generals opinion that the Corporate Uniform causes confusion.  It does not. Again, will comply in 2011, but the membership I think needs to have detailed reason this policy came about, and I think the Air Force is a little confused, if they think this is going to go over well for the relationship.

Some members WANT to have a detailed reason for the change, but there is no real NEED.  Face it, we are one speck of sand on their beach.  No matter how much some of us complain, stamp our feet, or hold our breath, Dad simply isn't coughing up the car keys...so to speak.  The AF is in charge of our uniforms, PERIOD, and they simply don't answer to us.  We can make requests and hope for the best. (Define "best!")  Otherwise we need to cowboy up and serve to the best of our abilities, and perhaps earn a little respect, or we can piss and moan and further damage our image with the AF and everyone who views CAP Talk.

I AM sympathetic to the desire for everyone to have a professional uniform and the ability to proudly display their CAP accomplishments.  In a perfect world we would all be in the same uniform and we would all look good in it.  However, I do think we need to take a collective deep breath, chill out a little, recognize our place in the big picture, and act accordingly.  We don't have anything close to a bully pulpit.