"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[wuzafuzz]

My point of the matter is: I don't think the Air Force should have a say in our Corporate Uniform Policy.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm thinking the Air Force is within their rights to say which military lookin' uniform their auxiliary can wear when running around on Air Force bases.  True, we aren't always on their bases, but I think blood might shoot out of my eye sockets if we create a uniform explicitly for "off-base wear."

If we don't mind our P's & Q's we might find ourselves in polo shirts full time.  The Air Force could easily do that.  Truth is, we can function as CAP without any seniors in military style uniforms.  Most service organizations already do that.

I personally liked the white and blue (except for that coat...hurl...) and sympathize with those who spent money on them, just to have the carpet pulled out from under them. 

[davidsinn]

Okay, let's take a moment an actually look at the Air Force Directive or Air Force Instruction (AFI) that stipulates what our parent organizations authority is in regards to the uniform(s).  Excerpts of AFI AFI 10-2701, "ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL" provides the following,

1.3. Status of CAP Personnel.  CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the UCMJ.  CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions.  CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired.  While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized.  Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance.  CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate).  The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

1.3.3. Grooming Standards.  CAP members that choose to wear the Air Force-style uniform must maintain weight, appearance, and grooming standards comparable to the Air Force.  Variations in these standards are subject to Air Force approval.  CAP ensures that all members wearing Air Force-style uniforms adhere to these standards.  CAP senior members who do not meet these standards are restricted from wearing the Air Force-style uniform but are not barred from membership or active participation in CAP.  In these circumstances the senior members may only wear authorized CAP uniforms, or civilian attire as appropriate.

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia.  The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions.  The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform.  CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

And then we have the Civil Air Patrol Constitution and Bylaws, which states,

ARTICLE XVIII - ADOPTION PROVISIONS

1.  The insignia, uniforms, copyrights, emblems and badges, descriptive or designating marks and words or phrases used by the Civil Air Patrol, on or before the date of this revision of the Constitution, are appropriated to the Corporation.

2.  Except as otherwise restricted by law, the Corporation may develop and adopt such insignia, uniforms, emblems and badges, descriptive and designating marks, and words and phrases for use by the members of the Civil Air Patrol as it may consider necessary or advisable in carrying out the objects and purposes of the Corporation.

Now, if someone will "please" show me where the Air Force derives its authority to control our CAP Distinctive uniforms, utilizing their directives, and where we relinquish our control of them in our own constitution, I will be happy to listen and learn.

Please do not say because the General says so; that does not change their regulations anymore than it would ours.  Arguing the phrase "sufficiently different" is not valid either; considering one could reasonably debate that the gray epaulets on the current Air Force style uniform does not make it sufficiently different; the CSU has more significant differences than what they have already approved (in my opinion).

Please do not forget to provide your source documentations.

I think they derive their authority from the golden rule: "he has the gold makes the rules."

Remember USAF is the most political of the armed forces and does everything possible to get their way even to the detriment to the other services (USA's lack of fixed wing assets, USS United States, etc.)

[NCRblues]

Highspeedlowdrag,
   My apologies for offending you, but you also took my quotes out of context. The first quote was about how some claim that only the "fat and fuzzies" that make cap run". This is wrong in so many ways. The second was just as it read if you are overweight; than I am sorry that you can't wear the air force style, but I am saying right now the air force will never ever let overweight members wear AF style. (I know this hurts some member's feelings but there's nothing I can or want to do about it, I agree with it) I work pretty hard keeping myself in shape to keep in AF style, there are some members that are just plain fat, they don't work out, never eat healthy and present a bad appearance an any uniform not just CSU/corporate. Other members have a medical issue or age, unfortunate, but it's going to happen to us all at one point in the future, and when it does to me, I'm going to make the switch to the authorized alternate uniform and carry on with the good work. Some (let me stress some) of those that are overweight does more complaining about not being able to wear the AF style than anything else. So once again if you are offended by my ideas than my apologies, but this does not make me a bad member. You have no right to call another member worthless, you have no clue my position, what I do, how much I do it, or how much time I sacrifice to cap. I don't say you are a bad member for your ideas you post on a non official idea board, so why would you. I am offended by that comment.

[Earhart1971]

Congress has the gold and not the Air Force in the matter of funding.

CAP is a Private Corporation, that is FUNDED by Congress, Congress funds CAP not the Air Force. We are a line item in the Air Force Budget. I want to get to the bottom of the complaints and their origin. Bottom Line, lets find out if there is a problem and what exactly it is.  I think it goes deeper than a problem with the Uniform.

The Corporate Blue White has been around a while, that supports the theory that we have a Corporate Uniform, that is seperate and different from the USAF Uniform. I want to know why that is not acceptable now?

The compliance with the NB is not an issue, we must comply. The CAP NB seemed to act on something that was not clearly stated in the Slide Show. WHAT WAS IT?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm thinking the Air Force is within their rights to say which military lookin' uniform their auxiliary can wear when running around on Air Force bases.  True, we aren't always on their bases, but I think blood might shoot out of my eye sockets if we create a uniform explicitly for "off-base wear."

If we don't mind our P's & Q's we might find ourselves in polo shirts full time.  The Air Force could easily do that.  Truth is, we can function as CAP without any seniors in military style uniforms.  Most service organizations already do that.

I personally liked the white and blue (except for that coat...hurl...) and sympathize with those who spent money on them, just to have the carpet pulled out from under them.

I like (and wear) the blue/white too, and I'm miffed at what's happened.  But I am powerless to change it.  The AF and NB aren't going to care about what some CAP Captain who has never served above squadron level thinks.  So, until I hear officially otherwise, I'll wear my blue/whites up until midnight, 31 Dec 2010.  I wear the blue utility jumpsuit most of the time anyway, and, as I've said, I'm just glad I didn't yet shell out for the CSU service coat.

The blue/white CSU reminds me more of TSA screeners than the Air Force, but it's not up to me.

The Air Force has every right to dictate what we wear on their bases...just as they have the right to dictate if we have access to their bases.  That's why they can say that the CAP assistance personnel have to wear the blue polo/khakis.  Personally, I think that either the AF blue or white/greys with plain grey epaulettes might be a better choice (kind of like the USCG directing CGAUX augmenters to wear the Auxiliary crest rather than bars/leaves/chickens/stars), but again it's not up to me.

To put on my Freud hat for a minute, part of our uniform difficulties may be related to the fact that the AF itself has had so many uniforms in its relatively short history...just in the past 20 years there have been several variations on the Tony McPeak uniform, and now they're going to the ABU (though operational considerations played in there) and are considering yet another service dress.

Compare that to the other four services.  I don't know the dates that other services have made changes, but my dad was in the Army when they changed from the Ike jacket to the greens (which he hated, but had to wear nonetheless), and the greens are just now being phased out.

Personally, I don't see how my suggestion of the CSU service coat with grey epaulettes and grey/whites could be mistaken for anything AF, in bright light or otherwise, but again it's not up to me...

[High Speed Low Drag]

Highspeedlowdrag,
   My apologies for offending you, but you also took my quotes out of context. The first quote was about how some claim that only the “fat and fuzzies” that make cap run”. This is wrong in so many ways. The second was just as it read if you are overweight; than I am sorry that you can’t wear the air force style, but I am saying right now the air force will never ever let overweight members wear AF style. (I know this hurts some member’s feelings but there’s nothing I can or want to do about it, I agree with it) I work pretty hard keeping myself in shape to keep in AF style, there are some members that are just plain fat, they don’t work out, never eat healthy and present a bad appearance an any uniform not just CSU/corporate. Other members have a medical issue or age, unfortunate, but it’s going to happen to us all at one point in the future, and when it does to me, I’m going to make the switch to the authorized alternate uniform and carry on with the good work. Some (let me stress some) of those that are overweight does more complaining about not being able to wear the AF style than anything else. So once again if you are offended by my ideas than my apologies, but this does not make me a bad member. You have no right to call another member worthless, you have no clue my position, what I do, how much I do it, or how much time I sacrifice to cap. I don’t say you are a bad member for your ideas you post on a non official idea board, so why would you. I am offended by that comment.

You are correct.  Previous to reading this post, I edited my original post becasue I realized that I had stepped over the line.  So I apologize to you for the original comment, (which has been removed). 

NCRblues - I hope that you have read the link post I put in.  I agree, SMs all make contributions, regardless if they wear they wear the AF style or not.  But the eating healthy, working out, etc, should not diminsh their value one way or another.  You do it - Good for you.  But does that mean those who don't are not of the same value and don't deserve the same rights?  It seems to me (and others) that there is a group on this board that are the Fat/Fuzzy Police.  Actually, I hate to say, it reminds me of high school where the jocks make fun of the nerds.  Here we have the AF-style wearers that do their best to diminsh those that can't wear the AF-style.

I think that most members are not complaining because they can't wear an AF uniform, they are complaining that they don't have a sharp-looking uniform to wear themselves.  Personally, I wish I could wear AF-style, but can't.  Do I complain about it - no.  I complain that there is not a sharp uniform that I can wear.  Size does not make the uniform look good or bad, it is how a soneone takes care of it.  I have seen plenty of fit people in AF and AF-style that look worse than an overweight who takes pride in theirs.

However, again, I do aplogize for the comment to you personally.

[Earhart1971]

I like (and wear) the blue/white too, and I'm miffed at what's happened.  But I am powerless to change it.  The AF and NB aren't going to care about what some CAP Captain who has never served above squadron level thinks. 

We are not necessarily powerless. This item may come up again at the NB. Let me give you a little insight on the how it is in the regular Air Force. Air Force personnel make comments on uniforms against National Guard and Reservists too.  Its standard Bowl of Milk stuff that goes on, its not just CAP targeted.

[Ned]

Ned, I respect you highly – every comment I have ever seen posted and your personal messages to me oozed respect and dignity.  That's why I was surprised to see your posts to Maj. Carrales.  I am also going to have to disagree with you to a point – the USAF Core Values and the CAP Core Values. 
CAP Core Values are Respect, Integrity, Excellence, and Volunteerism.  Nowhere did I see the USAF Core Value "Faith in the System" in there and I believe there is a reason why.  We are not strict military – we are not subject to UCMJ.  We are para-military.  And our leadership is no longer military, it is 'para-military / para-corporate' (we are a dysfunctional blend of the two completely different style of big bureaucracies).  While I have come to believe that is one of the reason our head leadership is having difficulties, it plays out here where the "public griping, whining, and personal crtiicism of our leadership" is not going against a CAP Core Value – this discussion actually is about us striving for Excellence.   

Joe posted that he agreed with my points, but felt that I was missing his point concerning the quality (or lack thereof) of the provided information concerning the NECs reasoning.

I agree that "Faith in the System" is a bullet under the AF Core Value of "Service Before Self" which is why I pointed out that it came from the USAF Little Blue Book.

While CAP doesn't have a Little Blue Book (we do have a shorter pamphlet, but they are not the same thing), as you point out we have a Core Values of Respect, Integrity, Excellence, and Volunteerism.

Are you suggesting that it is not inherent in the first three to have Faith in the System?

Restated, is it your position that it is perfectly ethical for CAP officers and leaders to publicly question and criticisize the decisions of our duly appointed superior officers?  Isn't that part of the "salute and execute?"

I hope you would agree with me that it is improper for a squadron commander to stand in front of the formation and say "those clowns at group have ordered us to have an SUI, but they never gave us a good reason."

And if you can't do it in front of the formation, why is it OK to do it publicly and permanently on the internet?

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Faith in the System is not a CAP value.  Let's just look at our very own Core Value of Respect.

Which of these comments do you feel meet the Core Values of Respect?  Which are part of a legitimate search for excellence?

I am really P.O.ed. [ . . .]. Who do I complain to when the NEC are the ones who commit waste and abuse of its membership.

I watched the NEC stream. Most the the bird colonels looked like slobs in the grey and whites. [ . . .] I am also getting tired of ranking officers telling me I can not wear the AF uniform because of  h/w requirements when it is obvious that their Fat A.. doesn't either.

With ALL the CLOWNING around CAP does with this and these uniforms, how can anyone profess to claim pride with the circus atmosphere of these so called leaders changing with the wind.

It is a SHAME that adults volunteering or getting paid at these NEC events or NB for completely lame decisions.  And there were plenty of these folks around in the Pineda era kissing fanny and buying in on this crap.  Too bad CAP isn't adult enough in refunding the money to ALLLL those who bought those silly uniforms.

But the NEC can't seem to see off the end of their colective noses.

It is the lack of real leadership at the national level. Why follow people who are running in circles and throwing away my money in the process. [ . . .] How can I continue to follow leadership that acts on a whim.

It does not matter what we want, it is a bunch of arm chair leaders who get to where they are at by way of the peter principle.

  Thus, arbitrary changes in Uniform Policy MUST be AVOIDED at all COSTS.  Forget being "unfair" to those that buy, but I submit that the practice is a "waste, fraud and abuse" of member funds better applied to other things.

That is arbitrary...it was done for the sake of "because."  Because schmucks didn't like it and those that bought it be [darn]ed.

This action is likely a travesty of that ideal.  If you screw with the membership in this manner, then how can one expect loyalty?

To take the ground floor out from members over policies is a horrible precedent.  This outrages me more on that matter than on anything else, save likely the incredible waste of resources.   

Wow.  This Sucks.  [ . . .]
This decision is one of the finest screw-ups I have seen in CAP in at least 10 years.  [. . .]
I now hope that membership drops significantly. 

They rarely make decisions that are for the good of the membership.  The decisions are political and for their own sake.

Obviously some clown and other clowns in this organization (CAP) voted to some facsimile, got a bunch of people in the CSU and other clowns at Vanguard benefited from the deal due to a bunch of folks who really do not understand the uniform process at all.    Just voting willy nilly on something is what CAP is currently good at. 

Congratulations on (presumably) not being overweight, having a beard, or long hair, nor ever being in a situation where you put in hours/weeks/months of effort into a CAP project or duty, only to feel like a second-class citizen because you have a thyroid condition which will not allow you to shed enough weight to get into spec.

If you are overweight, for whatever reason, than I am sorry, tough luck. [ . . .]  the continued politicking that runs RAMPENT through this organization.

Obviously the idea escapes you that its unfair to expect volunteers to be treated fairly and equally for the work and effort they put into the same organization.

MG Courter is a former board member [. . .] I would love for her to step on a scale!

It's true our leadership is handling this matter in a most inept fashion.

Hmmm.  "Slobs", "Clowns", "arm chair leaders", accusations of fraud and corruption, cheap shots at General Courter about her weight, etc.

That cannot be what you meant when you said this conversation was about the pursuit of excellence.

But it was what I was referring two when I wrote about "public griping, whining, and personal criticism of our leadership."  And also what I meant when I said that these kinds of comments are inconsistent with our core values.

Like, say, Respect.



I have absolutely no problems with a legitimate discussion of the issues.  And folks are certainly free to agree and disagree with any person or decision in CAP.

But publicly insulting our leadership is out of bounds for current CAP leaders who take their oath and core values seriously.


And this is just a decision about uniforms, for Goodness sakes.  Think what might have happend if the decision affected something truly important.

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

HEY!

Don't lump me in with that crowd insulting the leadership!  My responses were directed to others on this board, and neither you quote above do I view as disrespectful or outside the core values.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Ned –

I agree with you that insulting the leadership on a personal basis is wrong.  Pointing out errors by the leadership is not.  Having faith in the system is a value – as long as the system can have faith in it.  It is an inherent American Core Value to question our leaders, even in the military.  It is that very questioning that allows us to have faith in a system – because it withstands the questioning that is directed at it.

The revolutionaries had lost faith in the Monarchial System, they spoke out against it, then they took action against the system they had lost faith in.  Remember that at one time (particularly during the Civil War), officers of the U.S. Army were elected to their positions.  This ended up being an un-manageable system and was changed because people had lost faith in it.

Gen. McPeak proposed a new service uniform that put the USAF in an uproar – so much so that the AF removed the uniform before it reached the mandatory wear date.  There were letters written to the AF Times, various articles published about it, etc.  Did the USAF collapse as a result of the questioning in the system?

The membership has lost a lot of faith in the system of how CAP is being led – not necessarily the leaders themselves, but in the system that it has evolved into.  That has been the one repeated comments on the board – is the WAY in which decisions were being made and by whom.  CAP suffers from not having a clear head of agency – Is it the BoG, the NEC, the NB, the National CC, Cap-USAF, Executive Director??? 

Many previous posts have pointed this out.  We do not have a clear-cut high leadership Chain of Command like the military does.  Heck the National CC & National CV is elected by their subordinates.  Where does that happen in the military?  Even the official organization chart in 20-1 (Fig 1) is a box  shape and the top label is BOTH the NEC & NB.  I didn't even see the BoG on a chart. As I said in a previous post, we are a 'para-military / para-corporate' structure (we are a dysfunctional blend of the two completely different style of big bureaucracies).

Basic Leadership 101:  We all know that if a person is delegated the responsibility, they must be delegated the authority to fulfill that responsibility.  Where do we have that at CAP?  At Region and below.  IMHO, the NatCC does not have the authority that they should.  CAP has responsibility, but it does not have the all of the authority it needs.  Hence, the leadership quandry with which we are faced.
Do you propose that we turn our backs on an American Value of free speech, of questioning the leadership, of proposing new ideas, of trying to improve the system?

Ned, I don't think that a single person will refuse to carry out an order that is handed down.  Dec 31, 2010, will be the last day I wear my CSU and I will enforce that with my subordinates, as I expect it to be enforced upon me.  I will salute and execute.

[FARRIER]

Ned, I respect you highly – every comment I have ever seen posted and your personal messages to me oozed respect and dignity.  That's why I was surprised to see your posts to Maj. Carrales.  I am also going to have to disagree with you to a point – the USAF Core Values and the CAP Core Values. 
CAP Core Values are Respect, Integrity, Excellence, and Volunteerism.  Nowhere did I see the USAF Core Value "Faith in the System" in there and I believe there is a reason why.  We are not strict military – we are not subject to UCMJ.  We are para-military.  And our leadership is no longer military, it is 'para-military / para-corporate' (we are a dysfunctional blend of the two completely different style of big bureaucracies).  While I have come to believe that is one of the reason our head leadership is having difficulties, it plays out here where the "public griping, whining, and personal crtiicism of our leadership" is not going against a CAP Core Value – this discussion actually is about us striving for Excellence.   

Joe posted that he agreed with my points, but felt that I was missing his point concerning the quality (or lack thereof) of the provided information concerning the NECs reasoning.

I agree that "Faith in the System" is a bullet under the AF Core Value of "Service Before Self" which is why I pointed out that it came from the USAF Little Blue Book.

While CAP doesn't have a Little Blue Book (we do have a shorter pamphlet, but they are not the same thing), as you point out we have a Core Values of Respect, Integrity, Excellence, and Volunteerism.

Are you suggesting that it is not inherent in the first three to have Faith in the System?

Restated, is it your position that it is perfectly ethical for CAP officers and leaders to publicly question and criticisize the decisions of our duly appointed superior officers?  Isn't that part of the "salute and execute?"

I hope you would agree with me that it is improper for a squadron commander to stand in front of the formation and say "those clowns at group have ordered us to have an SUI, but they never gave us a good reason."

And if you can't do it in front of the formation, why is it OK to do it publicly and permanently on the internet?

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Faith in the System is not a CAP value.  Let's just look at our very own Core Value of Respect.

Which of these comments do you feel meet the Core Values of Respect?  Which are part of a legitimate search for excellence?

I am really P.O.ed. [ . . .]. Who do I complain to when the NEC are the ones who commit waste and abuse of its membership.

I watched the NEC stream. Most the the bird colonels looked like slobs in the grey and whites. [ . . .] I am also getting tired of ranking officers telling me I can not wear the AF uniform because of  h/w requirements when it is obvious that their Fat A.. doesn't either.

With ALL the CLOWNING around CAP does with this and these uniforms, how can anyone profess to claim pride with the circus atmosphere of these so called leaders changing with the wind.

It is a SHAME that adults volunteering or getting paid at these NEC events or NB for completely lame decisions.  And there were plenty of these folks around in the Pineda era kissing fanny and buying in on this crap.  Too bad CAP isn't adult enough in refunding the money to ALLLL those who bought those silly uniforms.

But the NEC can't seem to see off the end of their colective noses.

It is the lack of real leadership at the national level. Why follow people who are running in circles and throwing away my money in the process. [ . . .] How can I continue to follow leadership that acts on a whim.

It does not matter what we want, it is a bunch of arm chair leaders who get to where they are at by way of the peter principle.

  Thus, arbitrary changes in Uniform Policy MUST be AVOIDED at all COSTS.  Forget being "unfair" to those that buy, but I submit that the practice is a "waste, fraud and abuse" of member funds better applied to other things.

That is arbitrary...it was done for the sake of "because."  Because schmucks didn't like it and those that bought it be [darn]ed.

This action is likely a travesty of that ideal.  If you screw with the membership in this manner, then how can one expect loyalty?

To take the ground floor out from members over policies is a horrible precedent.  This outrages me more on that matter than on anything else, save likely the incredible waste of resources.   

Wow.  This Sucks.  [ . . .]
This decision is one of the finest screw-ups I have seen in CAP in at least 10 years.  [. . .]
I now hope that membership drops significantly. 

They rarely make decisions that are for the good of the membership.  The decisions are political and for their own sake.

Obviously some clown and other clowns in this organization (CAP) voted to some facsimile, got a bunch of people in the CSU and other clowns at Vanguard benefited from the deal due to a bunch of folks who really do not understand the uniform process at all.    Just voting willy nilly on something is what CAP is currently good at. 

Congratulations on (presumably) not being overweight, having a beard, or long hair, nor ever being in a situation where you put in hours/weeks/months of effort into a CAP project or duty, only to feel like a second-class citizen because you have a thyroid condition which will not allow you to shed enough weight to get into spec.

If you are overweight, for whatever reason, than I am sorry, tough luck. [ . . .]  the continued politicking that runs RAMPENT through this organization.

Obviously the idea escapes you that its unfair to expect volunteers to be treated fairly and equally for the work and effort they put into the same organization.

MG Courter is a former board member [. . .] I would love for her to step on a scale!

It's true our leadership is handling this matter in a most inept fashion.

Hmmm.  "Slobs", "Clowns", "arm chair leaders", accusations of fraud and corruption, cheap shots at General Courter about her weight, etc.

That cannot be what you meant when you said this conversation was about the pursuit of excellence.

But it was what I was referring two when I wrote about "public griping, whining, and personal criticism of our leadership."  And also what I meant when I said that these kinds of comments are inconsistent with our core values.

Like, say, Respect.



I have absolutely no problems with a legitimate discussion of the issues.  And folks are certainly free to agree and disagree with any person or decision in CAP.

But publicly insulting our leadership is out of bounds for current CAP leaders who take their oath and core values seriously.


And this is just a decision about uniforms, for Goodness sakes.  Think what might have happend if the decision affected something truly important.

Ned Lee

Respectfully, the uniform may have been born out of ego, but it created a sense of pride in the organization and an ability to display it.  Taking that ability away is causing the uproar.

[Pumbaa]

Respectfully, the uniform may have been born out of ego, but it created a sense of pride in the organization and an ability to display it.  Taking that ability away is causing the uproar.

Based on the way the TPU was born, this monstrosity should have never seen the light of day.

That being said, the way it is being pulled is disrespectful and costly to the members that invested in it.

I agree though that the "Non compliant" members should have a sharp uniform.  Ultimately, it would behoove CAP to switch to a singular uniform that is sharp and bling can be displayed on and have the same effect as the AF uniform.

Personally, I think the AF style uniform with the gray slides looks hideous...  but that is just my clothier styling selfs opinion...

[Eclipse]

I agree though that the "Non compliant" members should have a sharp uniform. 

Or we could embrace the ideals of the EOT training and simply do away with the notion that anyone who volunteers their time in
service to their country is "non-compliant", and then rework the program from there...

[Pumbaa]

Or we could embrace the ideals of the EOT training and simply do away with the notion that anyone who volunteers their time in
service to their country is "non-compliant", and then rework the program from there...

Agreed Eclipse...

I am overweight again.  I am bone on bone with my knees so I am limited in running, walking, bending, lifting, etc.... Until I get my knees replaced there is not a lot I can do... I also choose to have a neatly trimmed goatee that covers a scar.

CAP does need to embrace EOT training ideals...

[B.Kahuna]

I'm a cadet, so I'm a little biased.
It seems ridiculous to have two uniforms for members who, for whatever reason, can't wear AF uniforms. It's unfortunate that many members wasted money...but the sooner they pulled the plug on this uniform, the better. It's a shame they didn't do so sooner though.
I'm also appalled at the attacks at our National Commander on this thread. Even though you may be anonymous on this forum, you still should not resort to personal attacks of leaders.
Another thing-a big part of the Cadet Program is Physical Fitness. Although SMs don't have physical standards other than weight, shouldn't they still strive to lose any excess weight and demonstrate a healthy lifestyle for members, especially cadets they deal with? I appreciate some have injuries etc that preclude weight loss, but it's still excessive to have 3 uniform combos for SMs.

[Strick]

I have always wondered why on non-assinged AF missions we can wear the AF style uniform  but we hd to take USAF AUX off are planes becuse of fedreal PC LAWS..  We also have a coporate uniform (grey and whites that has a name tag with AF auxiliary on it.   It is just my opiion thatthe AF cant stand us being in a proffesional looking uniform. At this point I would say ditch the AF uniform and just have a corporate uniform that is backed by congress.  There are so many other counties around the world with a program like CAP and the thier parent orginization has no problem with them wearing uniforms.  I an so tired of the speculation has to why we have to ditch the CSU.Give me the  hard facts.   I am so sickof CAP having to kiss the Air Forces butt, I have seen it for the last 18 years........   

[Eclipse]

I have always wondered why on non-assinged AF missions we can wear the AF style uniform  but we hd to take USAF AUX off are planes becuse of fedreal PC LAWS..  We also have a coporate uniform (grey and whites that has a name tag with AF auxiliary on it.   It is just my opiion thatthe AF cant stand us being in a proffesional looking uniform. At this point I would say ditch the AF uniform and just have a corporate uniform that is backed by congress.  There are so many other counties around the world with a program like CAP and the thier parent orginization has no problem with them wearing uniforms.  I an so tired of the speculation has to why we have to ditch the CSU.Give me the  hard facts.   I am so sickof CAP having to kiss the Air Forces butt, I have seen it for the last 18 years........

Comments and tone like this don't help the situation.

[Hawk200]

It is just my opiion thatthe AF cant stand us being in a proffesional looking uniform.

It's a lack of professional appearance that has been a problem in the past. I have had issues with many members that are sloppy in appearance in any of our uniforms. You want a professional looking uniform? Look professional in one.

I've been on installations and saw CAP members that looked like dog squeeze in what they were wearing. Unauthorized T-shirts, inappropriate belts and boots, lack of an iron, unauthorized patches and so on.

It's even more embarrassing when someone that knows I'm CAP says "Hey, aren't you with them, too?" I've approached more than a few members in such an environment, and explained that their appearance is unacceptable. More than a few times, I've gotten an "F you!". I've followed up with more than a few commanders about it too. I shouldn't have to, and I really shouldn't have to make these corrections in the first place.

At this point I would say ditch the AF uniform and just have a corporate uniform that is backed by congress.

May as well ditch the Air Force. If you don't want the Air Force telling you what to do, then give up the benefits of being associated with the Air Force. No more State Directors to get aircraft rides for cadets. No more space on military installations. No more free uniforms to cadets. No more base liaisons. No more free flying. You don't want the accountability, then have the guts to give up everything.

As to kissing tail, we should quit stepping on their toes. Going straight to Congress when the Air Force tells us "no" isn't much different than going to Grandma when Mommy tells you "no". The same level of immaturity is present here.

Many people here seem to think that they're entitled to whatever uniform they want, whatever support they want, whatever answers they want. But many don't seem to think that they should be told what they can or can't do.

Yeah, there are volunteers here. I did the same thing when I joined the military, I volunteered. The difference between CAP and the military is that the military pays me and with the military, I may be called to give my own life in defense of this country. CAP asks for a lot less, but many members seem to demand a lot more.

I am so sickof CAP having to kiss the Air Forces butt, I have seen it for the last 18 years........

Easy way around that. The 2B has a voluntary resignation option. Turn over your ID card and it's done.

[MSgt Van]

Wow.

Who needs reality TV when there's CAPTalk...

[NCRblues]

I had blind faith in the system when I joined cap as a little middle schooler. Now I can't. How can I have faith in the system when we have very politically powered corrupt governance? Things are trying to be fixed now, but we are still feeling the damage from past underhandedness. In NCR alone, most state governments don't want to even talk to us because they are afraid of getting dragged into the next tony pineda scandal that comes along. Repeated attempts to make contact with the Missouri government are meat with "thanks for calling, the (enter elected officials name here) is very busy and will get back to you in the near future". I still go out and try everyday (almost) to make cap look great, but it is so hard when cap made national news about the pineda incident, then dropped off the map. Most potential customers only know us from that time. Unfortunate it is but there it is. Then we have a governance body that brings in a uniform (under shadowy circumstances) and 3 years later, bam its gone.....with little explination. I am happy about the uniform leaving, not the way it left. No one really knows who runs cap nowadays, were divided on which way to take cap in the future (which is now no longer the future, it's here and were lost...) uniform problems, archer problems, funding cuts, unhappy air force. Faith in the system for me is shaken.

Highdpeedlowdrag, no harm no foul, sometimes we let ourselves get carried away, when we love something as much as we both love cap. Carry on sir.