"Corporate Uniform" Gone!!

[FW]

^anything's possible however, the Air Force loves to write papers and letters about stuff.  I remember a "white paper" in '98 talking about some changes.....
And, then there was the letter to the BoG chairman in  '06 about the "CSU". 
At least the last letter spoke of "cooperation" in making a final decision.  I would expect the same dialog for any future changes; uniform or otherwise.

No, I don't see a major decision like this coming from an "unnamed source".  After 20 years in the military and, over 30 years in CAP, this is something new.  And, with the major heart ache the decision seems to have caused the membership; saving face is the last thing I would be worried about.

But, hey, what do I know about anything.

[Major Carrales]

Maybe instead of the letter going to the cap leadership saying we think you should change it, maybe there was communication from person to person, saying hey change is coming down the line, maybe you all should step up and take the incentive t fix it now before we officially ask you to. It happens all the time in the military and politics. Why is it so hard for some to believe that it can happen in cap? I really enjoy the  “if their isn’t an official letter with letter heard and signatures it didn’t happen” people. Also maybe the air force wanted to save their own face, because if you remember, there has been a new SECAF, and new chief of staff for the air force, since the CSU was given the go ahead (maybe) from the air force, did you ever stop and think maybe they didn’t want to come outright and say we don’t like it, maybe they wanted to help cap out instead of slapping us in the face again.

Unacceptable...I am going to hold everyone to the same standards.  There was a time when "General's Aide-du-camps" in cap were sporting a silver shoulder cord.  Also, a search of CAPTALK discussions will reveal several occasions where a "verbal" nod from past and present National Commanders of CAP allowed the wearing of some doo-dad or some mitigation of CAP policy.

The outcry about "seeing things in writing" and "proper procedure" on such things were a daily posting on this forum.  Now, people seem to be reversing those sentiments because it is now something that fits their opinions and personal whims.  IF IT WAS WRONG THEN, it IS WRONG NOW.

I'm call you people out now.  We are either going to adhere to CAP policy and the established standards of objectivity or we are not.

[Earhart1971]

So FW, what you are saying is. The Air Force did not voice a problem with the uniform? Is that correct.

I heard from a source on the scenario of the start of the Aviator and the Blue Slacks. It was the refusal of the Air Force to let CAP return to Blue Epaulets.

The Source was high in the CAP Chain, does not matter who it was.

I personally liked the White on Blue Uniform.

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

[Major Carrales]

So FW, what you are saying is. The Air Force did not voice a problem with the uniform? Is that correct.

I heard from a source on the scenario of the start of the Aviator and the Blue Slacks. It was the refusal of the Air Force to let CAP return to Blue Epaulets.

The Source was high in the CAP Chain, does not matter who it was.

I personally liked the White on Blue Uniform.

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

I am going to say this with some impunity.  I too have heard from high sources in CAP that the USAF had no problem with said uniform.  The matter of this having been so is a speculation made "fact" through repetition. 

People, choruses of "it makes perfect sense" and "it is logical" and "I read it ad infinitum times on the INTERNET" does not make something FACT in terms of CAP policy. 

Even when a letter comes down officially nixing the CSU, unless it contains some justification (which letters of policy rarely do) no one will know the real "why."

So, at this point, absent any "facts" on the matter... the reasons "The USAF didn't like it" and "Citizen Pineda's sitting opponents wanted to remove any vestige of his past administration" are equally valid and invalid points.

[RiverAux]

Wow, didn't expect Sparky to be calling a Region Commander a liar.  Will wonders never cease. 

[Earhart1971]

I saw the Squadron Commanders discussion email. It said the Blue/Uniform created "confusion" as in mistaken ID as an Air Force Officer. Please - Police and Fire Departments use a similar uniform.

Folks, can we have a heart to heart on CAP, and WHY it would be so bad for the CAP Officer to be mistaken for an Air Force Officer.

By the way I am an Air Force Veteran, and I am tired of the problem or supposed problem with the Uniforms.

[Westernslope]

It is my understanding that the orginal statement by the RMR CC regarding the uniform was to eliminate the Number of uniform options. I wonder if there also discussion at the NEC about the AF being unhappy or did that come later - after the decision was made to reduce the number of uniforms?

[Major Carrales]

Wow, didn't expect Sparky to be calling a Region Commander a liar.  Will wonders never cease.

Your flair for theatrics insults our intelligence.

Oh really, where did I call anyone a "liar."  My point is, absent any official policy letter or statement from the CAP-USAF or real "Q&A" session with their representatives, this discussion on CAPTALK is riddled with speculations, distortions and stretches of the imagination.

At present, it is quite clear that the issues surrounding the previous administration are far from resolved.  There are those who seem to have it as their duty to purge CAP of any and everything "good or bad" from that period.  Fine, I can understand that.

It is also clear that some people have an extreme dislike for the CSU...mostly those that still occasionally refer to it as the "TPU."  There is a mixing of the first and latter set in that occasion.

However, I must raise an eyebrow when the activities of the a fore mention group starts to cost a good portion of the general membership money with out so much as a collective voice from the governing body as to "why." 

Instead we have bits and pieces of "Regional" and out right speculation in place of a tactile, issue resolving statement that would end these FOUR threads once and for all.

[DG]

I have never advocated taking away the AF uniform, but rather arriving at a compromise that we can all wear, that reflects our AF heritage, but recognizes that we are a service of our own, with our own traditions and mission that predates the Air Force.

The arrogance and condesension (sp?) of the AF purists never ceases to amaze me. If you are so in love with the AF uniform, there is an organization that will allow you to wear it anytime you please. It's called the United States Air Force.

If you won't say, I will say it.

Do away with the USAF Style uniform.

And then let's get out to the flight line and get to work.  Doing the excellent work that we do.

Do away with the USAF Style uniform.

[Major Carrales]

I have never advocated taking away the AF uniform, but rather arriving at a compromise that we can all wear, that reflects our AF heritage, but recognizes that we are a service of our own, with our own traditions and mission that predates the Air Force.

The arrogance and condesension (sp?) of the AF purists never ceases to amaze me. If you are so in love with the AF uniform, there is an organization that will allow you to wear it anytime you please. It's called the United States Air Force.

If you won't say, I will say it.

Do away with the USAF Style uniform.

And then let's get out to the flight line and get to work.  Doing the excellent work that we do.

Do away with the USAF Style uniform.

Why, so that the other half of CAP can have wasted their money on uniform items now to be deemed obsolete?

I can, however, raise a glass to your second point..."let's get out to the flight line and get to work."

[SarDragon]

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

The AF does have control of the wearing of their uniform items, which the trousers were.

[Major Carrales]

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

The AF does have control of the wearing of their uniform items, which the trousers were.

Really...control over blue trousers.  So, if we all switch to J.C. Penny's slacks we can keep the CSU?  Amazing...why hadn't we thought of this sooner.

[Earhart1971]

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

The AF does have control of the wearing of their uniform items, which the trousers were.

The Air Force cannot own the blue trousers.

Coast Guard wears the same trousers.

So do some Fire and Police Departments.

The Blue/White Uniform is different and cannot be mistaken for anything but what it is, a CAP Uniform!

[RiverAux]

Wow, didn't expect Sparky to be calling a Region Commander a liar.  Will wonders never cease.

Your flair for theatrics insults our intelligence.

Oh really, where did I call anyone a "liar."  My point is, absent any official policy letter or statement from the CAP-USAF or real "Q&A" session with their representatives, this discussion on CAPTALK is riddled with speculations, distortions and stretches of the imagination.

You are quite well aware of the email copied earlier in this thread from a Region Commander, which cited AF objections as one of the reasons for the elimination of this uniform.  As a member of the body that voted on the decision, he is in a position to know the facts behind why they made this decision.  By refusing to accept this as the truth, you're calling him a liar. 

[NCRblues]

Major carrales,
   Like I have said before, my sources behind the air force not being happy, was the at the time command chief of Whiteman AFB, Chief Hornbeck who is now the command chief 8th AF. Now I know what you will say, that it is speculation, but I have to trust my command chief. It's not like he hunted me down to tell me this, he was on post checks as part of our NORE, and when he found out I was a cap member he asked me my opinion on it (to which I told him I don't think it was my part to stress one to him) and then told me that he along with others in the higher commands were receiving complaints about the CSU on military instillations. Now is this officially from cap-usaf, nope but like I said I have to trust the command chief on this one, can't really think of a reason for him to lie.....

[RiverAux]

We don't even need NCRs statements here.  We have the word of a Region Commander that AF objections was one of the reasons that the change was made.  As a voting member of the body that made the decision, he is in a position to know the truth.  By saying that this is "speculation", you're calling him a liar.

[SarDragon]

All of the services have specific rules on which items can be worn with civilian clothes. Since the trousers were specified as the AF item, The AF is well within regulation to deny their usage as a part of a CAP uniform.

[SarDragon]

This all comes down to whether CAP is in control of a NON Air Force Uniform. It still seems the Air Force pulls the strings on our choice of Corporate Uniform.

The AF does have control of the wearing of their uniform items, which the trousers were.

The Air Force cannot own the blue trousers.

Why not? They have a specific design and fabric that are part of the applicable Mil-Spec.

Coast Guard wears the same trousers.

And they have the same control of their version.

Whenever I have worn a "military-style" uniform, I have always been aware of the limitations and restrictions of wear defined by the regulations.

When it came to transgressions by individuals, enforcement has been selective, as it is even today in CAP. In the case of CAP's wholesale violation, the AF finally decided that it was time to do something about it.

YMMV.

[Major Carrales]

We have the word of a Region Commander that AF objections was one of the reasons that the change was made. 

When your statement reads...

We have the word of the NATIONAL Commander (...or Commader CAP-USAF) that AF objections was one of the reasons that the change was made. 

...then you will have my undivided support.  Until that time...all we have is speculation and hearsay.

[NCRblues]

Major, how would you feel if you gave an order and a reason for that order to your second in command at your squadron, your 2nd in command then tells everyone else the order and a reason for it, yet some of your people refuse to believe it because it didn't come from your mouth?